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to pende_tim
Re: [Plumbing] Well Pump Upthrust issue: Dole Restrictor Valves good or bad?I know the tank was set to 38psi with no water in it whatsoever. I can't speak to the bladder nor the pressure switch/gauge as defective as they were not verified to the best of my knowledge.
I have not seen air coming out the faucets, but how should air be first purged when starting up the pump. Maybe air is taking some of the tank's water volume, leading to low drawdown? |
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| XXXXXXXXXXX1 |
Spoke with the plumbing company. They are going to swap out the 202 (20 gallon) and replace it with a 203 (32 gallon), giving me full credit for the 202. They said it could be a lot of things. They said it happens sometimes... Could have been a defective tank from the factory. They have been great taking my calls and questions, and said they want to make it right. They have a very good rep locally.
Anyway, Amtrol lists the theoretical drawdown of the 203 at 40/60 to 9.4 gallons, and that should yield a bit over a full minute runtime. |
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 pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE |
to XXXXXXXXXXX1
If the pressure is set correctly in the bladder, each cycle will push out almost the entire contents below the bladder. This will purge any air that may enter the system.
Glad the company will make good on the problem. If you can get them to diagnose the problem, please circle back and let us know what they find. |
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Will do. Thanks for all your help and advice!  |
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| XXXXXXXXXXX1 |
to pende_tim
Question: What if tank pressure was set too low when the tank was being set??
For discussion sake, what if the tire pressure gauge used to initially set the tank was was off, reading 38psi, but in reality there was only 30psi or so in there. Then the tank water valve was closed, and the well pump energized.
Could that trap incoming air in there, and then coupled with too low bladder pressure which is taking up drawdown space in the tank?!? hmmm... |
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pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE |
That is possible. Only way to find out is to runout the tank and measure charge @ the schrader valve.
Low charge can also cause damage to the bladder. When the pump fills the tank to 60PSI and has less air to compress from a 30PSI start than a 38PSI starting point this can introduce more water than the bladder is designed to displace. Remember, with less initial pressure, more water must be forced into the tank to get the final pressure to 60PSI.
The rubber diaphragm can only move so much before it breaks. I am sure there is a safety factor built in but I do not know how much. |
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Damaged Water Tank Bladder as a Cause of Well Pump Short Cycling
A defective or ruptured captive-air water tank bladder: it sounded so weird we didn't believe it at first, but one reader explained that the water-containing bladder in their WellXTrol type water tank had collapsed and become stuck on itself.
The effect of a water tank air bladder that has collapsed and adhered to itself was that the water pressure tank would accept only a very small volume of water before the stuck-up bladder would reach the pump shut-off pressure. The bladder was replaced and things got back to normal. » inspectapedia.com/water/ ··· #Bladder |
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| XXXXXXXXXXX1 |
to pende_tim
Had a chance to drain the tank and check the bladder pressure- it measured 28psi!! I think it was set a bit low and the air pressure gauge used to set it was off. I set it to 38 psi and cycled it a few times and I remeasured the drawdown at about 4.25 gallons. Amtrol lists the 202 drawdown at 5.4 gallons officially, so it seems to still be holding less than the total amount advertised, but clearly under inflation does lower the drawdown amount of the tank.
To be fair, Amtrol does state that a variety of pressure and temperature factors will affect drawdown, but to me 20% or so still seems like a lot. |
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pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE |
Did you check the pressure on the tank's schrader valve when the pump stopped on a full tank condition? It should be 60PSI. Sometimes the pressure switch differentials are a wee bit off. |
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Yes I did. 60psi on the button when the pump cut out. I used 2 tire pressure gauges and both matched the tank pressure gauge, so I can confirm they are calibrated correctly. |
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| XXXXXXXXXXX1 |
to pende_tim
It will be interesting to see how the wx-203 performs once installed. |
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| XXXXXXXXXXX1 |
to pende_tim
Just had a thought... The house is downhill from the well, so the additional pressure from the 70'+ of underground well pipe might be adding additional pressure to the house system, tripping the cut-off "early" before the pressure tank fills to capacity since 60psi is being reached. That would explain the gallon or so difference in drawdown... it's in the line pressure, not necessarily in the tank.
Possible?? |
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pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE |
I am assuming the pressure switch is mounted to a "T" on the tank inlet(?). Correct?
Once the pump stops all friction losses stop. Also once the pump stops, the pressure on the Pressure Switch, the water in the tank and the air in the bladder are all essentially equal.
All the draw-down qualtity on the tank cares about is the pressure in the bladder when the tank is empty, the cutin pressure on the pump, the differential pressure on the pressure switch and the size of the bladder.
Was the water gauge on the tank reading 0.0 when you finished the measurement? That would indicate the bladder had pushed all the water out of the tank. Did you drain the tank with a valve right on the "T" manifold before you recharged it? This will ensure the tank is completely empty.
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Yes, pressure switch is mounted to the T on the tank.
Tank bladder was set to 38psi, cut-in set to 40psi. I measured from 60psi down to when I heard the cut-in click at 40psi. I took the water out gallon by gallon from a faucet after cycling the tank a few times, not at the spout at the tank.
Drawdown before was ~3.5 gallons, now is ~4.25 gallons. |
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pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE |
OK are you sure the tank was completely empty when you set the 38PSI? That is why I suggested draining it at the tank with the power off when setting the 38PSI. |
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The gauge on the tank read 0psi when I set the bladder to 38psi, but I drained the system down to zero from a faucet, not at the tank itself.
Would it make that much of a difference? |
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 robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX |
Depends on height difference. Best practice is to open the valve at the tank and leave it open while you are setting the tank pressure. Every foot of height above that is .433 PSI so it doesn't take many feet to add up when your tank capacity is small to begin with. |
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 StillLearn
Premium Member
join:2002-03-21
Streamwood, IL |
Let's say there is a 5 PSI head of water pressing against the tank inlet. If there is 28 PSI of air, I am thinking the tank is essentially empty of water. Dropping that water pressure to zero is not going to make the tank more empty of water, to my way of thinking. So the 28 PSI would still be 28 PSI.
What do you think? |
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pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE |
said by StillLearn:Dropping that water pressure to zero is not going to make the tank more empty of water, to my way of thinking. So the 28 PSI would still be 28 PSI. In theory yes. I have found it best when strange things are happening, assume nothing, restore everything back to a known state and then start again. Having said that, to eliminate a lot of unknowns that we can't see from here, the best practice is to drain the tank at the "T". This sets everything back to initial conditions. |
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| pende_tim |
to XXXXXXXXXXX1
One last thought: It may have been possible that the air you added to the tank was hot from a compressor and now has cooled to 45* due to the well water temperature and contracted and in turn the pressure no longer is 38PSI. |
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to XXXXXXXXXXX1
Q. There is an air valve (like a tire valve) on top of the tank. Do I need to check pressure or something?
A. YES – Absolutely! The tank comes with a pre-charge from the factory but you need to set the air pressure when you install the tank. It needs to be set to 2 psi less than the turn-on pressure that your pressure switch is set to. See the tank owners’ manual for details on how to set it.
NOTE: The tank pressure needs to be checked AT LEAST twice a year. It is better to check it every-other-month. There are instructions in the owners’ manual on how to do this. You will want to have a good accurate tire pressure gauge to do this. It uses exactly the same type of valve that’s on your car or bicycle so the same kind of tire pressure gauge will work fine.
Q. What happens if I don’t check the air pressure regularly?
A. Just like the tires on your car, air pressure can slowly leak out of the tank. The air pressure is what keeps the bladder from over-expanding from the pump’s pressure. If too much air pressure leaks out of the tank, the water pressure will over-expand the bladder so much that it can burst. At that time the bladder, or the tank, needs to be replaced. » www.flotecpump.com/resid ··· nks.aspxI just go out cut the pump off, drain the water out of the tank checking the point the switch operates on the cut in and where the water is exhausted from the tank, check the pressure with a tire gauge and adjust as needed. Takes less than 10 minutes including stretching out the air hose. It is no big deal to set the tank pressure. I don't really care if it's a pound or so off just as long as it's below the on setting of the pressure switch. |
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to pende_tim
WX-203 | 
T fittings and PVC |  | 
PVC Union |
New WX-203 installed in place of the WX-202. WX-203 was verified at 38psi on the button, and switch was set exactly 40/60. Cycled the pump a few times to purge the air, and then tested the drawdown. Here's the results: 40/60 drawdown: ~6.3 gallons Pump cycle time 40/60: ~49 seconds So, (6.3/49)*60= ~7.7 GPM Amtrol lists the tank drawdown at 40/60 to be 8.6 gallons, but at 6.3, I'm getting only about 3/4 of the rated capacity. So even with a new tank, capacity is still lower than expected. Obviously that rules out defective tank. All I can think of is the positioning of the well higher than the house adding pressure, but that's just speculation really. It is what it is I suppose... In any case, I'm satisfied at this point. Drawdown is now close enough to 1 minute, and if a shower or tub is running, cycle time will easily be over 60 seconds. And the plumbing company put in a PVC union this time so that future tank changes won't require cutting the PVC pipe back further, they can just connect to the union. They really made sure I was satisfied, and earned my continued business and recommendation. I would most likely go with a WX-250 if I were to do it again, but since I had already bought a new T for the 202, I didn't want to buy a whole new T (bigger size for the 205 and 250 models and up), so I went with the largest tank my 1" T would fit, the 203. All in all, I'm glad it's done and I can now enjoy my water! Thanks for everyone's help! |
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