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wonderdog
Anon
2014-Feb-28 4:53 pm
[Electrical] loosing whole phase of breakerThis is a 100 amp breaker fed from a 200 amp breaker bus panel. All phases work great. Until I shut off the water heater (220v) breaker.Then I lose one half of the the 100 amp breaker. And not sure about the feeding 200amp breaker Could it be a simple phase to neutral short on an element of the water heater? The water heater also doesn't work with breaker on. I just don't understand how when the breaker is off then I lose the whole phase. |
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 pike
Premium Member
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC |
pike
Premium Member
2014-Feb-28 5:17 pm
Call your utility company immediately. Your symptoms are consistent with the loss of one leg of your 240V service.
You need to turn off all breakers feeding 240V appliances including the water heater as well. |
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 nunyaLXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO |
to wonderdog
Call the power company. |
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 your moderator at work
 hidden : Trolling
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 leibold
MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
ZyXEL P-663HN-51
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to wonderdog
Re: [Electrical] loosing whole phase of breakersaid by wonderdog :I just don't understand how when the breaker is off then I lose the whole phase. You have got that backwards. You have lost one leg completely. When the water heater breaker is in the ON position your low resistance heating elements bridge the good leg to the bad leg (which makes 120V devices on the bad leg appear to work correctly). This is a dangerous situation if you have any shared neutral (MWBC) circuits in your home. Don't worry about the how and why. pike  's assessment of your situation is absolutely correct and you should contact your power utility immediately. If your utility has separate contact information for customer support and for emergencies, this situation calls for the use of the emergency number. |
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to wonderdog
said by wonderdog :Until I shut off the water heater (220v) breaker. Check the voltage on each leg of your electric service. I had several incandescent lamps suddenly dim and the voltage reading on a UPS go from 120 to 80 volts. One of the legs of my underground power drop burned out at a splice. The power company installed a special transformer on the meter to restore the open leg. A crew came out and replaced the drop early the next morning. Failure to take immediate action can result in severe damage to your appliances. |
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 IowaCowboyLost in the Supermarket
Premium Member
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA ·Comcast XFINITY
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to wonderdog
This is an emergency situation, you should shut off the main breaker and call an electrician and the utility company immediately. There could also be damage to your electrical wiring as well.
I would have an electrician check the panel and the wiring once the utility does their work as damage from overloading could have been done from the good phase. |
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greggofast to pike
Anon
2014-Feb-28 11:47 pm
to pike
It only occurs when I turn off the breaker to the water heater. When breaker is in the on position, each pole of the breaker is drawing 120v. Its a 4500 w heater. The top heating element reads 12.2 ohms screw to screw. And 0.0 ohms screw to base and screw to tank. The bottom heating element reads 0.0 ohms screw to screw, 0.0 ohms screw to base. And 0.0 ohms screw to tank. |
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 Msradell
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
1 recommendation |
Msradell
Premium Member
2014-Feb-28 11:54 pm
said by greggofast :It only occurs when I turn off the breaker to the water heater. When breaker is in the on position, each pole of the breaker is drawing 120v. Its a 4500 w heater. The top heating element reads 12.2 ohms screw to screw. And 0.0 ohms screw to base and screw to tank. The bottom heating element reads 0.0 ohms screw to screw, 0.0 ohms screw to base. And 0.0 ohms screw to tank. What do you get when you read the phase to phase voltage? If it's not 240 V you have a problem with one of the phase is entering your home like everyone else has been saying earlier. When you turn off the breaker the water heater doesn't exist as far as your electrical system goes because the breaker disconnects it. What's happening is you are transferring the 120v from the good phase to the other phase through the heater elements. The very dangerous situation and needs to be corrected immediately! |
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greggofast
Anon
2014-Mar-1 12:22 am
Yes even with all 240 circuits off the phase to phase is only 49.5mV. What could cause this? I am going to contact utility company. I am just curious. |
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| greggofast |
greggofast to Msradell
Anon
2014-Mar-1 12:25 am
to Msradell
So your saying the 120 is coming into the water heater on one phase and then returning to feed the other phase? Is this why the water heater doesn't work? |
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 John Galt6Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp |
to wonderdog
Turn off the main breaker and measure the voltage on the line side to see if you're getting the proper voltage from the utility. Don't forget to be careful...  |
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greggofaster
Anon
2014-Mar-1 12:43 am
Always. I'm not messing with it any more tonight. Ill get on it in the morning and post an update. Thank you very much for your help. |
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Msradell
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY |
to greggofast
said by greggofast :So your saying the 120 is coming into the water heater on one phase and then returning to feed the other phase? Is this why the water heater doesn't work? That's right, basically the water heater is only seeing 120v instead of the 240v it needs to operate correctly. |
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nunyaLXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO ·Charter
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to wonderdog
Upon reflection, I'm a little confused by your OP. Are you losing a leg in the 200A panel as well, or only the 100A?
If it's only the 100A, then shut off the breaker and call an electrician, not the power company.
BTW, in the US we use 120/240 for residential service. Sometimes 120/208. |
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greggofast
Anon
2014-Mar-1 12:37 pm
I'm going to test every line to neutral and line to line connections on both breaker panels. I will then make a draw a diagram and post it. Thank you everyone. And yes I am very familiar with electrical circuits. Just never had an issue occur like this. |
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your moderator at work
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| greggofast |
to greggofast
Re: [Electrical] loosing whole phase of breakerProblem was a bad post in the meter can. I tested the line in from the meter to the first breaker and read 120 on a phase and 3.8 on the other. Utility came out and replaced the meter box can and meter and power was restored. Thank you all so much. I am j ow a lifetime user of this site. |
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said by greggofast :Problem was a bad post in the meter can. I tested the line in from the meter to the first breaker and read 120 on a phase and 3.8 on the other. Utility came out and replaced the meter box can and meter and power was restored. Thank you all so much. I am j ow a lifetime user of this site. Good result and you didn't have any equipment failures from the problem. Kudo's to your POCO for repairing their equipment and getting you back in service. |
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IowaCowboyLost in the Supermarket
Premium Member
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA ·Comcast XFINITY
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to wonderdog
It's a good thing your poco replaced the meter box; where I live, Western Mass Electric Company will be glad to disconnect your power at the pole (overhead) or at the handhole (underground) and tell the homeowner to replace the meter box (aka hire an electrician).
Usually the poco is only responsible for the cables up to the weather head and the meter itself, everything else (conduits, meter box, weather head, anchor point) is homeowner responsibility. For underground service (like mine), the conduits are homeowner responsibility but the poco maintains the cables up to the meter itself.
You dodged a bullet on this one, you would have been looking at around $500 for an electrician (I'm guessing, meter pans are around $50 or so) but they hit you on labor. |
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1 recommendation |
greggofast
Anon
2014-Mar-3 10:03 pm
Yeah they were very helpful. Im certified to make low med and high voltage terminations. So once I had the clearance I could have replaced it. By yes I was surprised the poco fixed it free of charge. And in the night. |
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