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jawilljr
join:2007-08-07

1 recommendation

jawilljr to maartena

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to maartena

Re: Ubuntu That Looks Like Windows: Are We There Yet?




And because it is so easy to install software in windoze...the above is what a lot of people get..

Windows is a big NO.

maartena
Elmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA

2 recommendations

maartena

Premium Member

said by jawilljr:



And because it is so easy to install software in windoze...the above is what a lot of people get..

Windows is a big NO.

That is a user issue. I guarantee you that if you let a user that DOES do the above work with a Linux computer, he/she will have made a mess out of your Linux install as well. No you don't have toolbars that come with freeware programs, but if you just start installing stuff from the repositories, you will eventually get a pretty cluttered system, and in some cases, one program can break another because the dependencies have changed.

Say what you will, but A current Windows 7 installation (or Windows 8) can pretty much run all Windows software released in the last 15 or so years. If you have programs that require different versions of Visual Basic, C++, DirectX, etc.... they will run perfectly fine alongside programs that require newer versions of those. Most programs released in say 2000, will run on the same Windows as a program released in 2014.

In Linux, you are going to be in dependency HELL if you want to do this.... no matter how much love an OLD program, if it can't work with newer C++ libraries, you are going to have a problem with newer software that DOES need those newer libraries.

Personally, I run Linux Mint 16 (I switched to Mint when Ubuntu changed its GUI) on 2 computers, MacOS on my wife's Macbook, and Windows 7, Windows 8 on 2 more computers, so I take the best of all worlds, and combine them.

I love this laptop, Linux Mint works great, but I am under no illusions that Linux is just not ready for mainstream use, and problems like the ones with Netflix, are real.

The biggest strenght of Linux, is also its major weakness: Everyone can participate and develop for Linux, but there is also no authority. There are roughly 20 different types of distributions, and from those 20, several hundred forks have been created. The most well known ones are probably the ones based on Debian, but there is also based on Redhat, Mandriva, Gentoo, etc, etc..... in one distro you can install a .deb, in another a .rpm, and in yet another you will have to compile stuff from scratch most of the time, etc, etc.... there is NO uniformity.

So the next time you complain about Linux not being supported by such and so, THIS is why. A company can't possibly be expected to support not only the main distributions, but also the hundreds of forks that are available. Even Linus Torvalds has commented on this..... it has gotten a little TOO complex. What Linux should one choose? Yeah if you just do some email and webbrowsing, any might do.... but soon you may find out that program A is only available through Fedora based Distro's, and program B only is available through Debian based, and if you want to run both program A and B on the same computer, you are going to have to compile ONE of those from scratch with the sourcecode, and that brings a lot of it's own headaches with it.

Distrowatch.com has a top 100 of distributions, but there are many many more..... granted, some are the same fork (Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Lubuntu/Xubuntu etc), but even within those the differences are big enough to warrant their own spot in the listings.

Linux has gotten too complex. And after more then 20 years of development, it is still not close to really replace the desktop for the little-more-then-average user. And for the record, yes I am typing this from my laptop running Linux.

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
Premium Member
join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron

Premium Member

said by maartena:

Linux has gotten too complex. And after more then 20 years of development, it is still not close to really replace the desktop for the little-more-then-average user. And for the record, yes I am typing this from my laptop running Linux.

I think there's some fairness in that comment, but I also think that Windows fosters bad computing habits, and by that I mean the idea that a single computer should be all things to all people.

Linux doesn't foster this, and as a result your everyday computer user either views it a complicated or limited, when in fact Windows is just poor at doing lots of things, versus your typical Linux setup which is much more focused on a particular set of tasks.

EQ
DarkSithPro (banned)
join:2005-02-12
Tempe, AZ

DarkSithPro (banned) to Billy Brethr

Member

to Billy Brethr
Linux is inferior to Windows and Mac in terms of commercial software and peripherals usability. If all you have is second rate alternatives to the big boy commercial software companies, then that just sucks.

Tirael
BOHICA
Premium Member
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA

1 edit

Tirael

Premium Member

said by DarkSithPro:

Linux is inferior to Windows and Mac in terms of commercial software and peripherals usability

Commercial software: Absolutely. This is an ideological choice by the open source community for the most part, the exceptions being Suse, Canonical, and Red Hat (Fedora). There are paid for alternatives for some Linux packages, but because of the GPL, there are a lot of free alternatives (and derivative works). It isn't about second rate alternatives. In the eyes of Linux, those programs from "big boy commercial companies" doesn't exist. All that exists are packages that do the similar functions in the Linux sphere.

Peripherals usability: I have not found a single peripheral (I assume you mean keyboard, mice, webcams, printers, headsets, card readers, kvm switches, gamepads, Smart Card readers, and etc) that does not work in Linux, with a little bit of know how and the ability to read. I have found programs that do not work, such as Silverlight, however.

As far as the Silverlight stuff: It downloads a wine-compholio, so it really isn't a native Linux thing. That is why it causes issues (such as what maartena See Profile said). By not work, I meant "does not work the way it should". Of course I could get it to show video, but constant crashing, crappy sound, crappy frames rates, and the like is equivalent to "not working". This is in Debian.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium Member
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

Maxo

Premium Member

said by Tirael:

Commercial software: Absolutely. This is an ideological choice by the open source community for the most part, the exceptions being Suse, Canonical, and Red Hat (Fedora). There are paid for alternatives for some Linux packages, but because of the GPL, there HAVE to be free alternatives. It isn't about second rate alternatives. In the eyes of Linux, those programs from "big boy commercial companies" doesn't exist. All that exists are packages that do the similar functions in the Linux sphere.

Commercial software developers can develop for Linux if they find it in their business interest, and many do. There do not HAVE to be free alternatives.

Tirael
BOHICA
Premium Member
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA

Tirael

Premium Member

I edited my post to reflect what I meant. It was a little late when I wrote it initially.

TuxRaiderPen2
Make America Great Again
join:2009-09-19

TuxRaiderPen2 to DarkSithPro

Member

to DarkSithPro
said by DarkSithPro:
Linux is inferior to Windows and Mac in terms of commercial software and peripherals usability. If all you have is second rate alternatives to the big boy commercial software companies, then that just sucks.
Ok.. you've rattled my cage.. and the WRONG cage!

So back it up!

Tons of commercial operations rely on Apache, MySQL, Postgre, etc. and others! I would not call these second rate alternatives.

SAP? Have you heard of them? Probably not as your "commercial" software is probably limited to duty calls extreme lamer 14 or something... Well even though I despise the company to all good night.. Red Hat and RHEL is used to power SAP servers.. and do you know how infested with SAP junk the business world is? It is is worse than that other infestation with a w.

Yes, your right that if you want to run lamer gamer nonsense, Linux is NOT the OS your looking for! I for one am 100% happy and thrilled with that.. I don't play on my systems... and even if I did... my idea of games is PacMan, Zaxxon, Ms. PacMan, Centiepede, and guess what if you wanted to persue it.. MAME has that covered. And MAME runs quite well on Linux.

Oh.. but it can't run "office" applications! Really? Seems that Libre|Openoffice has that covered... no it is not perfect, but some of that is due to intentional fiddling by a certain company in Oregon...seems many organizations have decided that it is time to cut the gravy train to that company.. even if they are not migrating to Linux to do it..they are moving away from the huge fees for said program(s).

Hardware? Ok... there could be issues with ANY OS in re hardware. I've been there on your ever so perfect OS in hardware that should be supported with drivers, and it was junk and didn't work.. Same still applies today regardless of OS. Some stuff will never work in Linux, oh well. I support companies that do support linux by providing OEM drivers, and or support software to make their stuff work in Linux like nVidia, and HP.

So I will take my FIRST RATE Linux OS any day, any time, thank you.

darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
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join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
·Ziply Fiber

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darcilicious

Premium Member

None of us here are running SAP at home, so chill. When someone talks about "commercial software" on Windows and OS X, they are NOT talking about SAP and other server software (commercial or otherwise).

They are typically referring to (for example) user software such as the Adobe suite of multimedia design applications, various sound editing/mixing software packages (e.g. DAWs such as Logic Pro, Ableton Live, Pro Tools etc), and the like where yes the number and quality of these programs on Windows and OS X far outnumber the ones on Linux.

So no, games are not the end-all be-all of commercial apps for users that run primarily on OS X or Windows.
DarkSithPro (banned)
join:2005-02-12
Tempe, AZ

2 recommendations

DarkSithPro (banned) to TuxRaiderPen2

Member

to TuxRaiderPen2
said by TuxRaiderPen2:

said by DarkSithPro:
Linux is inferior to Windows and Mac in terms of commercial software and peripherals usability. If all you have is second rate alternatives to the big boy commercial software companies, then that just sucks.
Ok.. you've rattled my cage.. and the WRONG cage!

So back it up!

Tons of commercial operations rely on Apache, MySQL, Postgre, etc. and others! I would not call these second rate alternatives.

SAP? Have you heard of them? Probably not as your "commercial" software is probably limited to duty calls extreme lamer 14 or something... Well even though I despise the company to all good night.. Red Hat and RHEL is used to power SAP servers.. and do you know how infested with SAP junk the business world is? It is is worse than that other infestation with a w.

Yes, your right that if you want to run lamer gamer nonsense, Linux is NOT the OS your looking for! I for one am 100% happy and thrilled with that.. I don't play on my systems... and even if I did... my idea of games is PacMan, Zaxxon, Ms. PacMan, Centiepede, and guess what if you wanted to persue it.. MAME has that covered. And MAME runs quite well on Linux.

Oh.. but it can't run "office" applications! Really? Seems that Libre|Openoffice has that covered... no it is not perfect, but some of that is due to intentional fiddling by a certain company in Oregon...seems many organizations have decided that it is time to cut the gravy train to that company.. even if they are not migrating to Linux to do it..they are moving away from the huge fees for said program(s).

Hardware? Ok... there could be issues with ANY OS in re hardware. I've been there on your ever so perfect OS in hardware that should be supported with drivers, and it was junk and didn't work.. Same still applies today regardless of OS. Some stuff will never work in Linux, oh well. I support companies that do support linux by providing OEM drivers, and or support software to make their stuff work in Linux like nVidia, and HP.

So I will take my FIRST RATE Linux OS any day, any time, thank you.

My point is Microsoft and Apple have the commercial software and hardware OEM's by the balls. It's a fact the Open Source nVidia and AMD/ATI Open Source drivers and even closed source blobs are pathetic compared to their windows counterparts. Directx/Direct3d? Open Source has nothing to counter Microsoft's propriety API. Too many game developers like it and employ Direct3d with frame rate benefits. Specialized peripherals such as printers, faxes for businesses, you can forget about majority Linux driver support. What I'm trying to say is that someone who is looking for a personal desktop platform to support their games, programs, and peripherals will find that "Microsoft" provides more so than any Linux distribution at this current time.

Wily_One
Premium Member
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA

2 recommendations

Wily_One to TuxRaiderPen2

Premium Member

to TuxRaiderPen2

»youtu.be/C6cxNR9ML8k


Real servers run Linux. (Used to be Unix, but Linux pretty much has the lock for most deployments now.)

Desktop/personal OS is another issue. I don't spend time trying to make Linux "look just like Windows" - that's a fool's errand.

Use the best tool for the job.

Tirael
BOHICA
Premium Member
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA

1 recommendation

Tirael to DarkSithPro

Premium Member

to DarkSithPro
There is a hard push right now in the *nix (specifically Debian based distros like Ubuntu) to get 3D hardware acceleration. I have gamed on Linux through Steam and such. I see no real noticeable difference in quality. However, the setup is needlessly tedious and annoying.

maartena
Elmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA

2 recommendations

maartena to TuxRaiderPen2

Premium Member

to TuxRaiderPen2
said by TuxRaiderPen2:

said by DarkSithPro:
Linux is inferior to Windows and Mac in terms of commercial software and peripherals usability. If all you have is second rate alternatives to the big boy commercial software companies, then that just sucks.
Tons of commercial operations rely on Apache, MySQL, Postgre, etc. and others! I would not call these second rate alternatives.

SAP? Red Hat and RHEL is used to power SAP servers.. and do you know how infested with SAP junk the business world is?

I don't think you can find a lot of people who would disagree with the fact that Linux is a great platform for servers. As a matter of fact, for quite a few applications I would recommend Linux over any OS, because it works, is rock stable, and very versatile.

But people in this topic aren't talking about a SAP server, Apache webserver, MySQL database server, Postgre server, etc, etc....

They are talking about an OS that can replace the Windows system they and their family uses every day for a large variety of tasks, including games, syncing their iPhones, (and don't come back with: they should buy android!), watch Netflix video without having any issues (Silverlight), and being in a retail store, seeing a great deal on a printer, and not having to research first whether the thing will work in your OS.

The flash and silverlight alternatives available for Linux are often unreliable and slow. (see my post earlier in Linux Mint).

One of the biggest frustrations I run into running Linux, is that it is not at all friendly to switching monitors on the fly. I often put my laptop into a docking station where I use 2 monitors, and want the 24" to be my main monitor. Then, I pick up the laptop, move to the conference room, and plug in a projector with a different resolution. So withing 5 minutes, I switch from 24" + laptop screen ---> laptop screen only ---> laptop screen + projector.

Windows does this pretty seamlessly, and remembers the monitors once they have been used at least once.... Linux freaks out, and I often have to restart the X server just to get it to work.

Another PITA is older apps. I have a few little apps (a multi-renamer is one) that were once designed for Windows 2000, haven't been updated since 2001, but still work perfectly fine on Windows 8, and are lightweight, and fast, and work better then newer alternatives. There is a good chance that most Windows 32-bit software designed since 1995, will work 20 years later on whatever we run in 2015. There are some obvious exceptions of course, such as anti-virus and other system tools specifically designed for certain windows versions, but I still play games from 2004 for instance, without any dependency issues.

Try doing that in Linux. If you found a app or game, which a developer stopped maintaining in say 2004, you are going to find it is almost impossible to get it to work in newer versions of Linux, because the backward compatibility of many libraries is simply horrible.

Here is a great example of a game that works in both Windows and Linux..... but there is quite a caveat:

»www.ultimatestunts.nl/ - a remake of the 80s DOS game Stunts.

Windows: a MSI installer is available. A few clicks and you are done.

Linux: No repository carries this game, and hasn't for years. You will have to compile it yourself. Now for a seasoned linux user this may not be a problem, it really doesn't help with those who want to use Linux as an alternative, and are average users.

So while you may call Linux a "first rate" OS, the reality is that it really isn't. It may be first rate in the server world, and you will hear no argument from me on that. At all. But it is second rate, and if we include Mac OS I would even say third rate to Windows on the desktop.

And yes, for the record: I have ran Linux on and off since the mid-nineties, and my laptop runs Linux Mint 16.
maartena

2 recommendations

maartena to DarkSithPro

Premium Member

to DarkSithPro
said by DarkSithPro:

My point is Microsoft and Apple have the commercial software and hardware OEM's by the balls. It's a fact the Open Source nVidia and AMD/ATI Open Source drivers and even closed source blobs are pathetic compared to their windows counterparts. Directx/Direct3d? Open Source has nothing to counter Microsoft's propriety API. Too many game developers like it and employ Direct3d with frame rate benefits. Specialized peripherals such as printers, faxes for businesses, you can forget about majority Linux driver support. What I'm trying to say is that someone who is looking for a personal desktop platform to support their games, programs, and peripherals will find that "Microsoft" provides more so than any Linux distribution at this current time.

As long as a Linux distro on a laptop isn't able to be picked up from a dockingstation with 2 monitors attached on 2 different resolutions, and moved to a conference room with the laptop native screen and a projector with 2 completely different resolutions, without drivers and xserver freaking out about it, Linux isn't going to replace any Windows desktop in any office anytime soon.

That was one of my major issues when I ran Linux in my office. I am an IT specialist, so I had the choice without the boss complaining, but after moving around the office and trying to show stuff to people using different projectors, different monitors, etc, etc..... I just about threw it out the window, and went back to Windows instead. On Windows I could leave all my open software running, hook up to a projector, and off we go. On Linux I had to restart the gui part to even recognize it had a brand new monitor, and I have had the NVidia driver crash on me more then once.

TuxRaiderPen2
Make America Great Again
join:2009-09-19

TuxRaiderPen2

Member

said by maartena:
As long as a Linux distro on a laptop isn't able to be picked up from a dockingstation with 2 monitors attached on 2 different resolutions, and moved to a conference room with the laptop native screen and a projector with 2 completely different resolutions, without drivers and xserver freaking out about it, Linux isn't going to replace any Windows desktop in any office anytime soon.
Well in the referenced case above this falls similar in to the whole close the lid hibernate/sleep/suspend etc...

I've never had that work on a laptop reliably regardless of the OS. I quit even touching it after loosing work becasue of it...

And as for the monitor/projector thing.. hot pulling a laptop and then plugging into another setup hot..hmm.. if that is supposed to work, then I learned something new.. but I never do that...

I am in a similar situation and both my laptops my huge 17" Dell and my 15" compaq both did the same thing.. native screen on, and VGA output to a projector.. I never had any issue with doing it.. but I didn't try this hot swap thing... and this was and is still on 10.04 with OEM nVidia drivers on both.

I'll let the X gurus pipe in, but I don't think it is supposed to work that way, ie: hot swap monitors... at least in Linux.

Others outside IT continue to do presentation on laptops with only Linux, as we don't have anything else, and no issues, but again.. they don't do this whole hot swap thing.
said by maartena:
They are talking about an OS that can replace the Windows system they and their family uses every day for a large variety of tasks,
My family has no choice, if they want support they use Linux, I don't support anything else..They've been doing it for almost 2 years now...
said by maartena:
including games
I think this has been covered before, if you want that your on the wrong OS, and always will be. That is not likely to change, and quite honestly, that is fine with me.
said by maartena:
, syncing their iPhones,
What are you talking about "syncing" ? ? I don't have an idiot phone, and with my Droid device, I have no clue as to what your talking about.

Transfer files? I do that via Airdroid or pull the uSD card out and put in an adapter.
said by maartena:
(and don't come back with: they should buy android!),

Should be doing that anyway.

There is this neat little KDEConnect feature now for 14.04 that you put a small application in your device, and then it sends SMS message, phone call notices, battery levels to the desktop as a notification. Supposedly you can even browse files on the device.
said by maartena:
watch Netflix video without having any issues (Silverlight),

That is NOT going to happen. The software that powers this is not compatible with Linux by design.
said by maartena:
and being in a retail store, seeing a great deal on a printer, and not having to research first whether the thing will work in your OS.
Then get the manufactures to quit being cheap crooks, but is steal simple to achieve. Purchase HP, period. Much like modems, the computer should not be expected to make up for a dumb controller less device. Purchase HP and so long as they have the HPLIP service already running they plug in a USB printer and HPLIP will start a "wizard" to handle it, gee just like some other "OS."

I can relate 100's of stores of Janey going to the local megamart and getting some printer on sale, and still having problems to get it installed on your "perfect 'OS'" and getting calls from them to ask me about it. I try it on my Linux systems and it works great. Easy way to aquire cheap to free pritners/AIO's.

Even one of the more stuborn set of AIO's has built in support from *buntu's, Kodak. They have included the C2ESP setup needed to power these by default for 2 YEARS.
said by maartena:
The flash and silverlight alternatives available for Linux are often unreliable and slow. (see my post earlier in Linux Mint).
I run the flash hog with out issue and view all kinds of videos with it. Don't seem to have any issues other than that of flash being a hog to start.

As for the other. Won't touch it. I know the last issue of Linux Format I got wasted a lot of paper and ink on something that would allow you to run the actual infestationlight software... and it working with iPlayer (since they are a UK magazine)..

I personally don't see the need to feed sites which use that crap, but if you insist that it can't be done, well your wrong...and if Linux Format is using it then their solution is normally pretty friendly to the noobs/mom|dad/grandma|pa set for their use too. I have no use for that solution.
said by maartena:
One of the biggest frustrations I run into running Linux, is that it is not at all friendly to switching monitors on the fly. I often put my laptop into a docking station where I use 2 monitors, and want the 24" to be my main monitor. Then, I pick up the laptop, move to the conference room, and plug in a projector with a different resolution. So withing 5 minutes, I switch from 24" + laptop screen ---> laptop screen only ---> laptop screen + projector.
See other post reply, but as far as I know Linux is not designed to do that, and never was at least "hot."
said by maartena:
Another PITA is older apps. I have a few little apps (a multi-renamer is one) that were once designed for Windows 2000, haven't been updated since 2001, but still work perfectly fine on Windows 8, and are lightweight, and fast, and work better then newer alternatives. There is a good chance that most Windows 32-bit software designed since 1995, will work 20 years later on whatever we run in 2015. There are some obvious exceptions of course, such as anti-virus and other system tools specifically designed for certain windows versions, but I still play games from 2004 for instance, without any dependency issues.
Again, games = your not using Linux.
said by maartena:
Try doing that in Linux. If you found a app or game, which a developer stopped maintaining in say 2004, you are going to find it is almost impossible to get it to work in newer versions of Linux, because the backward compatibility of many libraries is simply horrible.
Since I gave up using that other "OS" decades ago.. I have no idea... I've already been there with some software that is used to read WX stations... I've yet to test it on 14.04. It relies on some USB libs that there was changes to, and then there was changes in the make file format that effected compiling... who knows if it will compile now..

And I guess if you'd like to try the 20+ cases of 3.5" disks of old shareware stuff I've still got in storage to see if it runs on a infestation 8 system, I could ship you some.. I doubt much of it runs.
said by maartena:
Here is a great example of a game that works in both Windows and Linux..... but there is quite a caveat:

Windows: a MSI installer is available. A few clicks and you are done.

Again games means NO LINUX. It is just never going to happen, and I for one have no issue with that. And if lamer gamer is your be all end all to life, then I think getting a device dedicted to that v. a PC would be investment. Yes I am total biased against games. I see no value in them. If I were to feel the need for that, then I will break out my 2600.
said by maartena:
Linux: No repository carries this game, and hasn't for years. You will have to compile it yourself. Now for a seasoned linux user this may not be a problem, it really doesn't help with those who want to use Linux as an alternative, and are average users.
No arguement that Linux software installation has issues. It has come a LOOOONG way in just the past few years.

Many of the distros offer these "software stores" which will do exactly what you want. Yes your game is not likely to be in it.

Can a lot more be done. YES!

Is it ever going to be as simple as some other "OS?" NO! But in comparison, of apt/synaptic v. yum, I'll take apt/synaptic any day. Even with synaptic, you select a package tell to mark for installtion, and it does its thing...

Your game could create "STATIC" built binary versions which would probably allow for something similar to the install process you want. In the Linux world that is tannamount to murder practically. Developers like your referenced game need to invest in creating a shell script that handles much of this so that it can offer an install experience close the other installers on some other alleged "OS."

If VMWare can get their Player software to install with a simple script now versus the old nonsene of having to find and install a bunch of dependencies ahead of time, then I think a game that is developed on Linux to start should be able to outshine them.

Yes, you probably need to have something to handle variances from 10.04 to 14.04, and RH/CentOS/Fedora, and then Gentoo well your probably just out of luck since they probably would prefer to toggle in the software on the front panel.
said by maartena:
So while you may call Linux a "first rate" OS, the reality is that it really isn't. It may be first rate in the server world, and you will hear no argument from me on that. At all. But it is second rate, and if we include Mac OS I would even say third rate to Windows on the desktop.
Linux is a first rate OS, regardless of where it is used server and especially desktop.

Your right it won't run uber lamer duty 2014, and it never will. A-OK with me! Mom and dad, you know what they do... email, play solitare, web browsing, access banking sites, some word processing, some spread sheets.. and every bit of that works just like any other "OS" and I don't have to clean up messes. They don't know any different really other than the icons look different.

As for netcrpax, you want that, well get a Roku or something that plays it. For me my Linux PC's play media just fine. They suck down all my viewing needs, spit out a daily playlist for VLC, and I play it. I don't seem to have the least issue with it. And I am not locked into some proprietary and DRM'd format.

darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium Member
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
·Ziply Fiber

darcilicious

Premium Member

said by TuxRaiderPen2:

Linux is a first rate OS [...] especially desktop.

No, it's not. But such is your OPINION. And even Linux users here disagree with it.
DarkSithPro (banned)
join:2005-02-12
Tempe, AZ

DarkSithPro (banned) to Billy Brethr

Member

to Billy Brethr
A couple of things come to mind. Wants and needs. Games and portable music devices first. A lot of us want games and music as it's enjoyable and because we spend our hard earned our money to be entertained. This is why we buy expensive iPods, video cards, Core i7 cpus, memory upgrades, SSD drives, and pay 60 bucks for blockbuster games. Then there's a need factor. If you work at a company chances are you need Microsoft Office. You also need to run programs for specialized peripherals depending on the company you work for that are only available on Windows, or Mac due to commercial reasons. But who am I to kid? It all comes down to money. I have to constantly use AV, registry cleaners, malware scanners, cache cleaners, and buy and subscribe to expensive programs and games to keep the system running the way I want it to be running. It's an expensive entertainment/work box that only runs better than Linux when you pay so much damn money to keep it that way. I guess free can be better if you look at your quarterly bank statement.
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

3 recommendations

dave

Premium Member

said by DarkSithPro:

have to constantly use AV, registry cleaners, malware scanners, cache cleaners, and buy and subscribe to expensive programs and games to keep the system running the way I want it to be running.

What I don't understand is why you have to do that, and I (a long-time Windows NT user) need no such things.

Most of the stuff you mention is pure snake oil.
DarkSithPro (banned)
join:2005-02-12
Tempe, AZ

DarkSithPro (banned)

Member

said by dave:

said by DarkSithPro:

have to constantly use AV, registry cleaners, malware scanners, cache cleaners, and buy and subscribe to expensive programs and games to keep the system running the way I want it to be running.

What I don't understand is why you have to do that, and I (a long-time Windows NT user) need no such things.

Most of the stuff you mention is pure snake oil.

Because if I don't Windows won't run smooth and I won't know for sure if I have a malware infection, or not and I won't be able to play the online games I have that require monthly subscription such as WOW. The Windows environment cost money and time if you want entertainment and security.
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave

Premium Member

"Run smooth", eh? There's a deep technical term for you.

All I know is, I don't install that crapware, I don't need to constantly reinstall the OS. and yet my Windows computers at home run just fine. As do the Windows computers I use at work (the work PCs run [I think] some MS endpoint protection, which is probably like Security Essentials for the enterprise).

I don't understand why having an online game subscription requires any of that other stuff, unless you're telling me that playing online games automatically opens you up to malware (I don't do games). And having to pay for games doesn't seem like an indictment of the OS to me.

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
Premium Member
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
Pace 5268AC
TRENDnet TEW-829DRU

NetFixer

Premium Member

said by dave:

I don't understand why having an online game subscription requires any of that other stuff, unless you're telling me that playing online games automatically opens you up to malware (I don't do games)

Possibly because most gamers I have had experience with (while repairing the malware damage on their systems) have a habit of disabling software firewalls, and either putting the gaming system in a DMZ or physically bypassing any external firewall/router for the gaming PC(s). If you have stranger sex without a condom, you get what you ask for.
DarkSithPro (banned)
join:2005-02-12
Tempe, AZ

DarkSithPro (banned) to dave

Member

to dave
said by dave:

"Run smooth", eh? There's a deep technical term for you.

All I know is, I don't install that crapware, I don't need to constantly reinstall the OS. and yet my Windows computers at home run just fine. As do the Windows computers I use at work (the work PCs run [I think] some MS endpoint protection, which is probably like Security Essentials for the enterprise).

I don't understand why having an online game subscription requires any of that other stuff, unless you're telling me that playing online games automatically opens you up to malware (I don't do games). And having to pay for games doesn't seem like an indictment of the OS to me.

Perhaps if you did game you would understand. A lot of games have demos and after you delete it keeps useless registry. Also 3rd party mods and expansion packs. Sometimes malware slips in. Cleaning the system keeps frame rates up. If you don't game then that is why you don't need to keep cleaning your system.

Tirael
BOHICA
Premium Member
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA

Tirael to dave

Premium Member

to dave
said by dave:

Most of the stuff you mention is pure snake oil.

Most of the stuff is pure snake oil (if and only if) you are not connected to the internet. Since most of us are, then there is any number of things (from botnets, ddos, brute force hacks, and etc) that can and will infect a system.

NetFixer is also right. Most gamers look at some online tutorial that tells them to stick a system in the DMZ (dumbest piece of advice ever) and do it. Personally, I game a lot. I have a lot of games through online services (Steam, Blizzard, and etc). My girlfriend also likes to try to figure out how many Chrome windows she can have open at any given time (seriously, 13 GB worth of Chrome windows). I will be damned if I do not do some ounce of prevention ensure my network doesn't get FUBAR'd by something she does (or I do by accident).

Assuming that you are unhackable or that malware protection (be it free or otherwise) is useless is a fool's errand. Only opening the ports you need open, closing the ones you don't, and having base level AV (such as MSE) is a must in today's online world.
Billy Brethr (banned)
join:2005-04-01
San Antonio, TX

Billy Brethr (banned) to DarkSithPro

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said by DarkSithPro:

A lot of games have demos and after you delete it keeps useless registry (entries). Also 3rd party mods and expansion packs.

Registry cleaners can sometimes be useful for deleting BAD registry entries, say for example an entry that instructs the O/S to launch an .exe that isn't there (for whatever reason), which may cause an error and a delay in boot times.

"Useless" registry entries, i.e. leftovers that are left behind in the registry and do nothing have no effect on the speed of the Operating System whatsoever. It is claimed that there is a "controversy" on the use of Registry Cleaners, but then there is also a controversy on whether or not the earth is flat. And handful of stupid, crackpots publicly insist that a registry can become "dirty" and that a "cleaner" will somehow make the system run better, and hoards of uninformed and gullible people believe them because they want to believe that they can press a few buttons and "PRESTO!" something positive has happened.

There is no, absolutely none, zero credible, objective and authoritative evidence that indicates that the deletion of "useless" registry entries by Registry Cleaners do anything positive for the system, If there is any debate at all on this issue, it is between those that have taken the time to research the issue and found that there is no such evidence, and those that want to believe in one-button fixes, the tooth fairy, free healthcare, unicorns and other fantasies propagated the stupid.
me1212
join:2008-11-20
Lees Summit, MO
·Google Fiber

me1212 to NetFixer

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said by NetFixer:

I have had experience with (while repairing the malware damage on their systems)

How often does that have to be done though? I may be lucky but I've only once or twice had a real malware problem in the modern windows world. Sure I've had a good deal of little things but maleware bytes takes care of that when I have anything.

Tirael
BOHICA
Premium Member
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA

Tirael to Billy Brethr

Premium Member

to Billy Brethr
To be honest, the only thing that a registry cleaner does is keep Windows from trying to find a file that isn't there (which is what 99.999% of the "leftover" registry keys are). The thing is that the whole process of Windows bouncing through the hive is so quick (and it only does it on startup and when the file needs to be accessed) that it could not POSSIBLY affect actual performance. Unless you (the user) were trying to access files that are not there. If someone figures out how to do that, let me know.
Billy Brethr (banned)
join:2005-04-01
San Antonio, TX

Billy Brethr (banned) to me1212

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An assessment of the threat of malware includes the quality of timing. The lag between when a malware in introduced "into the wild" and when the major Anti-Virus companies identify the code as malware and include it's signature into their virus definition updates might be a week or even longer. It is during this time period that the vast majority of malware is propagated, as no one on the planet is protected against it. And once the initial "new" infection is in place and has a measure of control over the machine, it is then able to download and install additional malware, which may or may not be standardized and identifiable by the major malware companies.

One should consider that the failure of an anti-virus to identify the presence of malware does not necessarily indicated that the system is malware-free; it may also indicate that the malware is unique to that specific machine and has no universal characteristics that can be used to identify it's presence.

Further, there are stealth malwares that have the ability to hide their presence on a machine. Not just rootkits, which utilize one way of hiding their presence, but also simple scripts that make use of legitimate system files in order to download and install more standardized malware on an "as needed" basis.

Unique script tells standard, legitimate Windows file to download and execute malware, which then does whatever it wants. AV software identifies the newly downloaded malware and deletes it, but leaves behind the unique script and the legitimate "tools" that it can use to do the whole thing over & over again. Unless knows what to look for and where to look, all they will ever see is "Brand X" anti-virus software doing a "good job" of finding & removing malware, but the reality is that "Brand X" isn't doing a thing to address the root cause of it all.

This is just one of the many reasons why I constantly harp on the fact that people that believe in anti-virus softwares are in more jeopardy than people that do not, as they have a false sense of security that gives them permission to ignore obvious signs of infection (pop-ups, slow computer, delays in browsing, etc...). They don't know what it's doing, but their certain it's not infected. Maybe downloading updates for Windows, Java, Adobe, Google, iTunes, etc... All that invisible crap running in the background provides electronic "cover" for the existence of undetected malware, and that is just one of the many reasons why I identify, hunt-down and ruthlessly murder any and all processes, services, etc... that have the word "updater" in them, as an alternative to identifying, hunting-down and murdering the software engineers that created them.

Microsoft enables, subsidizes and contributes to the problem by it's fundamental belief that a User does not, and should not be afforded the right to make a decision to run any kind of update on an "as needed" basis. It should be a fundamental rule of any programming that all software that wants to run an update must require explicit manual permission to do so, and any software that fails to comply with this is categorized as malware and is automatically deleted in it's entirety.

Further, these updates must be required to provide a standardized, universally formatted report that gives explicit details as to the purpose for every single update and that these reports must carry with them a certification that can be revoked if in the event that the update software fails to make full disclosure of what the purpose of the update is.

It comes down to a fundamental question as to who owns, and has the right to fully control the computer, the hard drive and the magnetic, electronic 1's and 0's on that hard drive. The international Microsoft monopoly and the corrupt US Justice Department have defined for the Users what their rights are, and most Users accept that definition blindly, without ever giving it a 2nd thought. They accept the retarded notion that they are only given a "license" to use the Operating System, while never even considering that the Operating System is a intangible product, but the 1's and 0's are tangible and require electricity, hardware and regular service in order to keep them functional. The rights of individuals to own their 1's and 0's is never discussed. I may not own the relationship between the 1's and 0's on my computer, but I certainly own the magnetic fields and other medium that define those relationships. I may not own the sound in the air, but I certainly own the air. It's MY air, and no one has the right to tell me what I can and cannot do with my air, nor do they have a right to search or surveil my air without my permission, nor do they have the right to install software that does things with, in or too my air without my permission. It's a God-given and inalienable right; one worth fighting, killing and dying over.