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yoyomhz
join:2003-02-15
Beverly Hills, CA

yoyomhz

Member

I've noticed a big problem with all religions.

The video is Jehova's Witnesses, but ALL religions are the same.
In the video this guy who is speaking says "You must be loyal to Jehovah"
That's cool. I can understand putting God first, ahead of family members.
but here's where the problem is - the JW guy thinks the JWs, who disfellowship
someone from one family - ARE THE SAME AS GOD. If you watch the video, it's clear that JW can't tell the difference between God, and the people who run the religion. He thinks
the people are God.

And all religions are the same. the people think they are God.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· dwe_6JsU

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord

Jehova Witnesses is more a sect than a religion. Brainwashing starts very early on with children and getting out of it is not a simple matter for some. There are many books written by ex-witnesses that will account the lengths to which this church will go to maintain control.

Not all religion are like this. The cornerstone of all religions, at first, were to use our fear of the unknown as a manipulative tool to instill population control. Don't kill or God will punish you. Don't steal or you'll go to Hell. It was necessary in those days.

Those founders who used religion as system of tools of control were so good at manipulating societies that in some places, the users became completely dependent on the system. Indeed some people equate spiritual death with physical death. When you meet those extremes, then you have total control over the subjects.

This is what happens with Jehova Witnesses and in certain Islamic countries which pushed the envelope too far.

The other side of the medal is where societies took religion as a tool of control and evolved it into a tool of enlightenment. Which is what you'll find in North America, western Europe, South America, etc.

Not all religions are the same.

Last Parade
join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON

Last Parade to yoyomhz

Member

to yoyomhz
quote:
I've noticed a big problem with all religions.
Yeah, they exist

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav to TigerLord

Premium Member

to TigerLord
I wouldnt call western religion enlightenment. Its simply a more subtle form of control, usually over those that are weak of character or poorly educated in the sciences. One does not need church to be spiritual or to treat others as equals with empathy. Historically religion can be found involved in power struggles, oppression and genocide, not to mention buggering boys in orphanages.

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord

said by Anav:

I wouldnt call western religion enlightenment. Its simply a more subtle form of control, usually over those that are weak of character or poorly educated in the sciences. One does not need church to be spiritual or to treat others as equals with empathy. Historically religion can be found involved in power struggles, oppression and genocide, not to mention buggering boys in orphanages.

I used to think like this but after lengthy conversations on these forums with people of faith whose intelligence I respect, it is apparent to me that religious people who have the ability to think freely and critically exist.

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav

Premium Member

I respect your opinion on this Tiger and concur there are some folks here that are to be admired. Unfortunately my admiration stops if their critical thinking does not include the fact that they could be wrong, and equally I have to acknowledge that their maybe something to religion that I do not comprehend. Personally I think due to our intelligence, its natural to strive to yearn for a reason for our existence, a purpose etc....... It may be easier for some to grab a crutch to explain this or to avoid the fear of not having an explanation. Fear of the unknown is a powerful motivator. I also dont buy this penchant to be saved, utter nonsense IMHO.

I will say this, I probably never made it to the Olympics, or at least any Basketball championship, because God was not at my side.

yoyomhz
join:2003-02-15
Beverly Hills, CA

yoyomhz

Member

when i was in church everyone smiled like crazy every sunday. and my church
was one of the only true churches on earth - similiar to JWs, who are God's only true church.

but when there was a problem and I quit goin gto church, no one smiled at me anymore on Sunday. In fact, no one had time to even talk to me. And none of them even bothered to talk to me - for twenty five years. And a couple years ago I was told by the pastor's son, who is now the pastor of the church - he said i turned my back on God. See - he thinks his church is God, and anyone who quits going to his church is against God.

all religions are the same. They all think they are God, like JWs.
graniterock
Premium Member
join:2003-03-14
London, ON

graniterock to Anav

Premium Member

to Anav
Some people gravitate to Richard Dawkins not because of their critical thinking skills but because they find him charismatic. Just as others find preachers charismatic. (I will nip this in the bud: I'm not saying atheism is a religion)

It's not hard to find followers in religious circles (Ha Ha). But they aren't the only type of believer. What I do find is that people of faith / religious people who have better than average critical thinking skills tend not to be black and white about their beliefs. ie.... not all non-Christians go to Hell (if there is a Hell at all), believe that the Bible entirely metaphorical but does give some clues to God's will.

Some churches encourage education. Example: Presbyterian Church in Canada requires most ministers to have an undergraduate degree before training to be a minister. This results in parts of the church having formal training in the hard sciences. When the church wants to make a policy on bioethics they can bring in the ministers with biology degrees. In this religious setting young earth creationists are almost as fringe as they are in the general public.

To my churches credit: When I expressed questions of disbelief the response I got was:

1. Disbelief can be a normal part of the "faith journey".
2. Told I was probably more honest about these issues than most people within the church.

(Disclosure: I was heavily involved in church when younger but I "grew out of" faith and moved on. But many of my friends back in those days have grown up to be ministers or heavily involved in the church. None of whom I would consider weak of character or poorly educated.)

digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium Member
join:2000-07-15
GTA

digitalfutur to Last Parade

Premium Member

to Last Parade
Because societies without religion have been so much better historically. You're conflating trigger with cause when it comes to blaming religion for society's ills.

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord to graniterock

to graniterock
said by graniterock:

To my churches credit: When I expressed questions of disbelief the response I got was:

1. Disbelief can be a normal part of the "faith journey".
2. Told I was probably more honest about these issues than most people within the church.

It certainly is to their credit they would react like this, but it also embodies the problem I have with religion/science symbiotics: they all have a limit somewhere, an arbitrary line they have drawn in their head beyond which their suspension of belief no longer applies and science goes out the window. I find this intellectually dishonest.

If tomorrow morning scientific evidence that changed how we perceive the world was presented, I'd be forced to re-evaluate my world views. A religious person would see this as an apocalyptic crisis (imagine a scenario where irrefutable evidence that God is a lie would be presented...it wouldn't be pretty) whereas scientists would welcome a new perspective with wide open arms. It certainly would make me giddy giddy giddy. I'm still hoping the Asgards show up in their spaceships one day. Until then, I look to the stars.

In all seriousness, I find the scientific method a better vessel for progress and evolution precisely because of its adaptability and integral honesty. My fears are not being manipulated to get certain behaviors out of me.

On that note, I recently read and watched fascinating material on research done by a woman called Brené Brown, who studies human behavior. She spent the last decade studying shame and vulnerability and her findings have revolutionized the way I look at human behavior. Simply put, she realized that shame was the key to hacking the mind of human beings. Shame induces behavioral changes that leave room for "mind control." When you realize how many churches of every denomination have used shame to control their followers, her research comes off as a real epiphany.

koira
Hey Siri Walk Me
Premium Member
join:2004-02-16

koira to yoyomhz

Premium Member

to yoyomhz
man i started reading this thread and my UPS is going crazy

the power..... the power

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav to TigerLord

Premium Member

to TigerLord
Dont forget guilt, and the one magical outlet religion provides, forgiveness. Imagine, something that allows us to not be accountable to each other but to god for example.
graniterock
Premium Member
join:2003-03-14
London, ON

graniterock to TigerLord

Premium Member

to TigerLord
I guess I should add number 3: I was I assured I would come around.

For pretty much for the reasons you (TigerLord) just said I haven't yet.

I was pretty much a "seek and ye shall find" person when it came to faith issues. My parents weren't highly religious but for some reason as a teenager I sought it out. My parents made sure I didn't get sucked into some fanatical portion of the greater Christian church (I thank them for that) and set me up with a liberal / moderate church in the area. Those there took it as fact that all this spiritual stuff was real. I felt that given enough life experience all my "seeking" would lead to "finding". As I hit adulthood my need for religion (seeking a place in the world and other teenage melodrama) faded as did my belief.

Although I was heading this direction anyways, I did have a bit of an existential awakening when my philosophy teacher politely told a peer that she could only quote the bible as a proof if she could first prove that the bible was an authoritative text using any method proof we had studied in the class thus far or that she was willing to provide. The bible was no longer quoted in class. (A college with a strong catholic heritage no less!)
ilianame
join:2002-06-05
Burnaby, BC

ilianame

Member

I think it comes down to:
Two gold fish having an argument about religion:
- Fine, then if god doesn't exists, who changes water in the tank every week?

Scientists versed in theoretical physics and quantum mechanics do allow (sometimes advocate) intelligent design.

For how random even the smallest particles known to humans seem to move, they all coincide in one plexus just at the right moment to bounce off the other particles

milnoc
join:2001-03-05
Ottawa

milnoc to koira

Member

to koira
said by koira:

man i started reading this thread and my UPS is going crazy

the power..... the power

And I just happen to be watching "The Shoes Of The Fisherman."