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FaxCap
join:2002-05-25
Surrey, BC

FaxCap to MaynardKrebs

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to MaynardKrebs

Re: We could have an air force 5x larger at these prices

Was it not a Turkish F-16 that shot down a Syrian Mig-29 the other day?

FaxCap

FiReSTaRT
Premium Member
join:2010-02-26
Canada

FiReSTaRT

Premium Member

said by FaxCap:

Was it not a Turkish F-16 that shot down a Syrian Mig-29 the other day?

Depends on the circumstances.. In general, as a flying machine, the Germans (after the merger, of course) tested the Mig-29 platform and found it to be superior to the F-16 platform. The West German F-16's had superior avionics and targeting systems, but that was because the East Germans didn't have the upgraded Mig-29's that the Russians have. I'd say that all things being equal, the platforms are at least on an even footing.

We don't know what happened between Turkey and Syria, whether it was a single plane dogfight, whether the Syrian was ordered not to fire, whether the pilots were equal, whether ground defenses were also used...

BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium Member
join:2004-04-13
Canada

BonezX

Premium Member

it depends on which variant of Syrian mig, most of them are converted over to ground attack, so they are lacking a considerable amount of air to air capability.

not to mention the ones they have, aren't exactly examples of them in peak operating condition.

FiReSTaRT
Premium Member
join:2010-02-26
Canada

FiReSTaRT

Premium Member

When the East and West german airforces were getting integrated, they ran exercises with 29's vs 16's.. They had to change the rules so the F16's didn't have to go back to base every time they got "shot down" because they were getting "shot down" too often. East German migs were well-maintained and piloted but I mentioned their shortcomings over the current MiG29 platform (which would also put them at a disadvantage when facing modern F16's).

Dingusz
@start.ca

Dingusz

Anon

One of the guys we have at work is from Russia/ Soviet Union, according to him, "western" pilots are too reliant on advanced avionics and cant hold their own in a visual range dogfight.

Kinda true from certain angles, since America has been pushing for "Beyond visual range" type of air combat for decades. Wouldn't really surprise me if their pilots or jets cant handle old fashioned dog fights.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

said by Dingusz :

One of the guys we have at work is from Russia/ Soviet Union, according to him, "western" pilots are too reliant on advanced avionics and cant hold their own in a visual range dogfight.

I'm sure that's true. When you have tech you come to depend on it, eventually your old skills atrophy.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to FiReSTaRT

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to FiReSTaRT
»www.16va.be/mig-29_exper ··· ence.htm

Seems like the Mig-29 is a better aerodynamic platform than the F-16. A better electronics suite would make them totally 'killer'.

FaxCap
join:2002-05-25
Surrey, BC

FaxCap to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
Just one problem that being I hear even today the reliability of Russian aircraft is still
below that of most western aircraft.

FaxCap

donoreo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON

donoreo to Dingusz

Premium Member

to Dingusz
said by Dingusz :

One of the guys we have at work is from Russia/ Soviet Union, according to him, "western" pilots are too reliant on advanced avionics and cant hold their own in a visual range dogfight.

Kinda true from certain angles, since America has been pushing for "Beyond visual range" type of air combat for decades. Wouldn't really surprise me if their pilots or jets cant handle old fashioned dog fights.

That's what Top Gun is for Speaking of which, they say they are finally making a sequel.
MichelR
join:2011-07-03
Trois-Rivieres, QC

MichelR to Dingusz

Member

to Dingusz
said by Dingusz :

One of the guys we have at work is from Russia/ Soviet Union, according to him, "western" pilots are too reliant on advanced avionics and cant hold their own in a visual range dogfight.

Kinda true from certain angles, since America has been pushing for "Beyond visual range" type of air combat for decades. Wouldn't really surprise me if their pilots or jets cant handle old fashioned dog fights.

I seem to recall someone from the Canadian Army making similar comments about some of the U.S. ground forces a few years back. Gadgets break or go offline = oops, what do we do now?

FiReSTaRT
Premium Member
join:2010-02-26
Canada

FiReSTaRT to MaynardKrebs

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to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

»www.16va.be/mig-29_exper ··· ence.htm

Seems like the Mig-29 is a better aerodynamic platform than the F-16. A better electronics suite would make them totally 'killer'.

The East Germans probably had downgraded 29B's and those were pretty old-school. Since then they've introduced several variants with much improved avionics. The platform definitely hasn't stagnated as the M/SMT variants will show. I'm betting that with properly trained pilots (which Russia has plenty of) it can at least hold its own against the F-16 platform.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

1 edit

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane
»medium.com/war-is-boring ··· d45f86a5

...But the redesigned JSF, while somewhat lighter and more maneuverable, is also less durable and less safe to fly. In particular, the elimination of 11 pounds’ worth of valves and fuses made the JSF 25-percent more likely to destroyed when struck by enemy fire , according to Pentagon analysis. Words every NATO opponent loves to hear, n'est pas?

....that regardless of when and at what price the F-35 enters service, owing to its vertical-takeoff equipment the new fighter is the aerodynamic equivalent of a lobbed brick, totally outclassed by the latest Russian- and Chinese-made jets.

...

Sprey, the fighter engineer, said he expects the Pentagon to eventually come to terms with the unpleasant truth, that its new universal jet fighter with the foolhardy vertical-takeoff capability could spell the end of an epochal half-century in which America truly dominated the world’s skies. “My prediction is the F-35 will be such an embarrassment it will be cancelled before 500 are built,” he said.


----------------------------

Can't Turn. Can't climb. Can't run.
»blogs.reuters.com/great- ··· ant-run/

----------------------------

Single-engine F-35 jet risky choice for Canada’s air force, report warns
»www.thestar.com/news/can ··· rns.html

Asked in 2010 about the potential of an F-35 suffering an engine failure in Canada’s north, then Defence Minister Peter MacKay said bluntly, “It won’t.

Later......
Air Force Pilot Escapes F-35 Fire During Takeoff
»defensetech.org/2014/06/ ··· takeoff/
The plane is most likely a write-off. Whether it happened on take-off, or on afterburner while on sovereignty patrol chasing a Russian bomber off our coast, it's a 'kill' as far as the Russians are concerned.

-----------------------------

If we're going to buy a single engine fighter (with all its shortcomings like losing planes to bird strikes, etc...), let's get 120 or so Gripen NG's (made in Canada) or 80-ish Eurofighters if we opt for a twin-engined fighter, and also offer to buy 100 or so A-10's off a restarted production line for close air support (ie. something that can take fire and still keep flying). All that will cost us less than buying 65 F-35's.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

the more i read about the advanced drones, the more i like them...their relatively low cost allows you a massive fleet, and by having them integrated with each other and your command centre, it can be quite effective...not sure how they would do vs stealth aircraft, but whatever.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· HKWjXn-E

Robert4
Premium Member
join:2002-03-11
St John'S, NL

Robert4

Premium Member

Anav has been telling you that for a long long time.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

said by Robert4:

Anav has been telling you that for a long long time.

as i said, i don't know how the stealth aspect fits in, but a large drone army does sound intriguing...i'm no expert on war, but air superiority usually wins, and the drones relatively low cost, but still effective roles, does seem to be an interesting option that should be looked at...especially considering our relatively limited budget.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

1 edit

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

We should get some of these, »www.wired.com/2014/01/triton/
and couple them with some manned Bombardier coastal patrol jets/turbo-props.

They're already building Dash 8 based maritime patrol planes, and Boeing is also working with Bombardier on this
»www.defensenews.com/arti ··· eillance

1st Flight of Bombardier/Boeing maritime patrol aircraft
»boeing.mediaroom.com/Boe ··· t-Flight

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

i think maritime patrol would be a very good thing for us to buy...it would likely be a great complement to a networked blanket of drones.