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AppleGuy
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join:2013-09-08
Kitchener, ON

AppleGuy to corster

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to corster

Re: Another "New Car Time" thread...

Yeah, Cruze is closer to the Focus in size. I suppose the Fusion would be more comparable to the Malibu.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
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join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to Hydraglass

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to Hydraglass
Look around for a low mileage off-lease diesel.
Some people buy them for the 'perception' rather than the need.
You could get into a much better car for less money.

Hydraglass
Premium Member
join:2002-05-08

Hydraglass

Premium Member

said by MaynardKrebs:

Look around for a low mileage off-lease diesel.
Some people buy them for the 'perception' rather than the need.
You could get into a much better car for less money.

I looked - there's not much out there for low milage used diesels - there aren't that many diesels in this segment to start with (Jetta - horrible for electrical reliability, Cruze - new on the block with nothing used out there, Audi/BMW/Mercedes - repair costs and insurance costs and purchase price would likely push them all well out of my budget and they all have ridiculously short warranties)... Toyota, Honda, etc aren't in this segment yet, etc.

dirtyjeffer0
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to Styvas

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to Styvas
said by Styvas:

said by Hydraglass:

Also note - ALL of my driving is highway driving at 100-105 km/hr with cruise control set -- so that 5.5 - 6 is "highway" milage not combined mileage. I never drive in town. Ever. We use her car for that.

About 4km of my 102km commute is on city streets, and the best I've ever done over the full trip was 6l/100km (maybe once I got 5.9 because I hit no lights at all). I drive 110kph and no higher. I think my car is rated 5.1 for highway (I'd have to double check) so that shows you how the ratings are not representative of real world conditions.

as i've stated before, the "Hwy" number is determined using an average speed of 77 km/hr...there are few cars likely to attain that number on a 400 series highway...in fact, you can be sure many cars are made to "ace the test", meaning they are geared so they are "puttering along" in top gear on flat level ground to achieve incredible posted numbers...however, get some hills there, and the tranny will downshift a few times and accelerate over those "hills" and/or up the speed to a realist 100-120 km/hr and your fuel economy will suffer...then, add in winter tires and cold outside temps and it will suffer further.
dirtyjeffer0

dirtyjeffer0 to Hydraglass

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to Hydraglass
said by Hydraglass:

Thanks - excellent input - I hadn't thought of the Forte -- I've been exceedingly happy with the Sorento - it's needed nothing done to it in 200,000 km - not even new brakes yet - just oil and filter changes, tires, air filters, chassis lube, etc -- I will check it out and see what the prices and tco seem to work out toward. I'll perhaps give the Elantra a bit closer look too if people are having good upkeep reports on them - as it does meet pretty much all my other needs and wants.

Off to the APA website now.

if you look at the Forte 5, i would make sure you look at the 2014 model...it uses their new platform for improved ride and handling...it's Hyundai cousin (Elantra GT) still uses the "old" platform...also, the Forte 5 can be optioned up nicely if you want...upper trims get the Turbo 1.6L engine...should be somewhat "decent" on fuel, as long as you aren't flogging it (which is the same for everything)...i have the non-turbo version of that engine in my car (Rio5)...i am currently averaging about 7.7...that's with winter tires, cold temps and 95% city driving...the car is rated at 7.2, so factoring in the winter tires, cold temps and my lack of "trying to achieve the best number" is decent...i have been able to get high 4s on flat ground on rural roads at 75-80 km/hr with the cruise on.

one of the reasons i bought the Kia is that i was able to double my warranty to 10 years/200,000 kms (the standard is 5 years/100,000 kms)...i plan on keeping the car for a decade, so it was nice to have it under warranty that long...i have about 40,000 kms on it now and it has only been in for routine maintenance.
dirtyjeffer0

dirtyjeffer0 to Hydraglass

Premium Member

to Hydraglass
given your list:

sedan/hatch
well equipped
$30k max

-i'd consider the above mentioned 2014 Forte 5.
-Civic or Corolla are always worth looking at.
-Subaru Crosstrek if you want something different (can likely be in your budget, and has AWD but still gets decent fuel economy)
-Toyota Prius (a coworker has one, it was about $28k, and he lives near Waterloo so also drives a lot everyday - he averages low 5s in the winter and low 4s in the summer)
-2014 VW Jetta (new models now have upgraded independent suspension and the 2.5L is replaced with their new 1.8T, has been very well reviewed and is your budget)

i might think of a couple more too.

toache
@agr.ca

toache to Hydraglass

Anon

to Hydraglass
I'd look at used. Or rather the 8 month old fleet cars that fill up the lots. You can get the same car with maybe 20-30k on it which is around 6 months of your driving. They typically come loaded. But you'll knock off around $10k maybe get them to throw in the extended warranty up to 5 years other incentives like free oil changes are also offered by some.

Buying new is throwing money away as soon as you drive it off the lot. I paid $20k all in for my used (23,000 km) 2012 Focus Titanium in 2012 fully loaded every option which runs over $30k before tax new. Buying the new version offers me nothing.

joeblow3
join:2000-12-27
h0h0h0

joeblow3

Member

I agree toache...I will never buy new again. My wife just bought a 2013 Kia Rio5 with 21,000 km on it 50 weeks old. $8,000 less than a new one.

Her last car was a 2006 Grand Prix was 6 months old and 20,000 km on it $10,000 off a new one's price.

Let someone else pay for the depreciation.

Hydraglass
Premium Member
join:2002-05-08

Hydraglass to dirtyjeffer0

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to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

given your list:
-Subaru Crosstrek if you want something different (can likely be in your budget, and has AWD but still gets decent fuel economy)

Funny you mention the Crosstrek -- I had been looking at the Impreza early on - AWD, great fuel economy, and most of the goods that I'm looking for... Price wasn't half bad either... One of the things that made me shy away a bit is the very high cost of repairs from Subaru - they have one of the highest hourly labour costs, replacement parts are very steep, and they don't have the world's highest reliability - they've had exhaust issues, oil seal issues, injector issues, etc -- drivetrain and suspension are excellent - but I think by the time I get to 300k km I'll spend a good chunk on repairs.

I really don't want to get into what I got with my BMW - my 328Ci barely made it 250,000 km and I'd spent more than 50% of the purchase price in repairs between 100,000 km and that 250,000 km mark... brake jobs 2 at $2000... windshield $1400... VANOS system $3000, Window regulators $800, Sunroof system $1200, Guibo joint (drive shaft support bearing and "universal") $800, electrical wiring issues to brake lights $500, front ball joints twice at $900 each time... MAF Sensor for $500... I could have bought a brand new civic DX for what I spent on repairing it... Thus why I'm looking for something with "legendary reliability, good extended warranty, descent highway fuel economy, and a medium purchase price".

Styvas
Who are we? Forge FC!
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join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON

Styvas to dirtyjeffer0

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to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

said by Styvas:

said by Hydraglass:

Also note - ALL of my driving is highway driving at 100-105 km/hr with cruise control set -- so that 5.5 - 6 is "highway" milage not combined mileage. I never drive in town. Ever. We use her car for that.

About 4km of my 102km commute is on city streets, and the best I've ever done over the full trip was 6l/100km (maybe once I got 5.9 because I hit no lights at all). I drive 110kph and no higher. I think my car is rated 5.1 for highway (I'd have to double check) so that shows you how the ratings are not representative of real world conditions.

as i've stated before, the "Hwy" number is determined using an average speed of 77 km/hr...there are few cars likely to attain that number on a 400 series highway...in fact, you can be sure many cars are made to "ace the test", meaning they are geared so they are "puttering along" in top gear on flat level ground to achieve incredible posted numbers...however, get some hills there, and the tranny will downshift a few times and accelerate over those "hills" and/or up the speed to a realist 100-120 km/hr and your fuel economy will suffer...then, add in winter tires and cold outside temps and it will suffer further.

Hence my comparison between posted and real world numbers. Unless you're just trying to explain my point, I don't get yours. Are you agreeing or arguing with me?

Hydraglass
Premium Member
join:2002-05-08

Hydraglass to toache

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to toache
said by toache :

I'd look at used. Or rather the 8 month old fleet cars that fill up the lots. You can get the same car with maybe 20-30k on it which is around 6 months of your driving. They typically come loaded. But you'll knock off around $10k maybe get them to throw in the extended warranty up to 5 years other incentives like free oil changes are also offered by some.

Buying new is throwing money away as soon as you drive it off the lot. I paid $20k all in for my used (23,000 km) 2012 Focus Titanium in 2012 fully loaded every option which runs over $30k before tax new. Buying the new version offers me nothing.

Well - if I go with the Corolla the 2014 is a totally different car than the 13 - I have no interest in the 13. There's 2 used Civic touring for sale locally - they are only $1500 less than brand new on the lot - that's no bargain for 20,000 km of use. I found 2 of the 2013 cruze's that are 20-30k km on them - neither have the options I want (they are low end - not LT2 or better) and they don't offer a great add-on warranty... The Mazda 3 is also totally different for '14 - I'm not interested in the 12/13... I also am particularly persnickety when it comes to maintaining what I drive - I just get the willies not knowing what my car has had done to it before I get it - only ever had one used car in my life and it died 40,000 km after I got it (blown transmission) - no reason for me to go down that road when I don't have to. I can buy new - so I plan to.

joeblow3
join:2000-12-27
h0h0h0

joeblow3

Member

Well if you're that picky on the model years then you either 1) wait until next year for a 2014 or 2) buy new and pay for the drive off the lot.

Hydraglass
Premium Member
join:2002-05-08

Hydraglass

Premium Member

said by joeblow3:

Well if you're that picky on the model years then you either 1) wait until next year for a 2014 or 2) buy new and pay for the drive off the lot.

I said I was happy (and don't mind at all) to buy new at the top of the thread. Basically I had found 2 cars that met my needs and my list - I was asking around if people had experience or recommendations for others that I missed.

So to recap -
New from a dealer - Under $30k out the door all fees and taxes in, Auto Trans, gas, Sedan/5 door, Listed as under 6L/100k hwy economy, leather seating, sat radio, in-dash navi, power windows/locks/etc, good reliability and low maint. costs to 300,000 km - possibility of extended warranty to 200,000km a bonus.

My original two candidates - Honda Civic Touring, Toyota Corolla S w/ Tech Package

Add-ons I'm now considering adding to my list based on discussion - Mazda 3 GT or GS, Hyundai Elantra, Chevy Cruze Eco, Kia Forte (Can't remember there might be one more - I'll be reviewing the thread later to update my shopping list)... Unfortunately it means my shopping list and test drive list is longer rather than shorter than when I started! D'Oh!

dirtyjeffer0
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to Hydraglass

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to Hydraglass
said by Hydraglass:

Funny you mention the Crosstrek -- I had been looking at the Impreza early on - AWD, great fuel economy, and most of the goods that I'm looking for... Price wasn't half bad either... One of the things that made me shy away a bit is the very high cost of repairs from Subaru - they have one of the highest hourly labour costs, replacement parts are very steep, and they don't have the world's highest reliability - they've had exhaust issues, oil seal issues, injector issues, etc -- drivetrain and suspension are excellent - but I think by the time I get to 300k km I'll spend a good chunk on repairs.

the current gen of Impreza product (including the CrossTrek, from which it is based on, but i personally think it better as it is raised slightly, and can even tow if you want (albeit, a minimal amount), is different from previous generations...the new 2.0L H4 engine has been revised and some of the previous "issues" with the previous 2.5L H4 don't seem to be an issue on the current crop of engines...i'm not as familiar with the Subaru product, but one of my friends had one (he recently traded it in as it was 12 years old) and had no problems with it...face it, everything nowadays is expensive to work on...last i checked, Ford was about $100/hr, so you are likely going to pay regardless of brand...a few people i know online who have them swear by them, and FWIW, their resale value is among the best in the business...either way, i'd check it out...doesn't hurt to take a look.
dirtyjeffer0

dirtyjeffer0 to Styvas

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to Styvas
said by Styvas:

Hence my comparison between posted and real world numbers. Unless you're just trying to explain my point, I don't get yours. Are you agreeing or arguing with me?

not arguing at all...agreeing and explaining why the "Hwy" number is unlikely to be achieved in real world driving, especially if on 400 series highways.

honestly, everything now is good on gas (within reason)...get what you like, that has the features you want, and the price you want for your budget...the difference between the "best" and "meh" is marginal nowadays anyway...honestly, there's never been so many great choices available.

Hydraglass
Premium Member
join:2002-05-08

Hydraglass to dirtyjeffer0

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to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

the current gen of Impreza product (including the CrossTrek, from which it is based on, but i personally think it better as it is raised slightly, and can even tow if you want (albeit, a minimal amount), is different from previous generations...the new 2.0L H4 engine has been revised and some of the previous "issues" with the previous 2.5L H4 don't seem to be an issue on the current crop of engines...i'm not as familiar with the Subaru product, but one of my friends had one (he recently traded it in as it was 12 years old) and had no problems with it...face it, everything nowadays is expensive to work on...last i checked, Ford was about $100/hr, so you are likely going to pay regardless of brand...a few people i know online who have them swear by them, and FWIW, their resale value is among the best in the business...either way, i'd check it out...doesn't hurt to take a look.

Good feedback - I don't know anyone who has the current gen - I do know someone who has a current gen Mitsu Lancer and and can't wait to get rid of it.. so that one never made it on my list right from the start. I do like the idea of AWD for those sno and ice covered drives on 401 - a good AWD with 4 good snows (like the Blizzaks or XIce) is a formidable winter commuter without a doubt.

nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

nitzguy to Hydraglass

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to Hydraglass
said by Hydraglass:

said by MaynardKrebs:

Look around for a low mileage off-lease diesel.
Some people buy them for the 'perception' rather than the need.
You could get into a much better car for less money.

I looked - there's not much out there for low milage used diesels - there aren't that many diesels in this segment to start with (Jetta - horrible for electrical reliability, Cruze - new on the block with nothing used out there, Audi/BMW/Mercedes - repair costs and insurance costs and purchase price would likely push them all well out of my budget and they all have ridiculously short warranties)... Toyota, Honda, etc aren't in this segment yet, etc.

I challenge this Jetta electrical issue....being the owner of an 08 City Jetta that I drive 144km/day round trip, I find it pretty good on gas, I guess 6.9 isn't in the 5.7 range...and the cost of changing oil, I challenge that, I change mine every 15,000-18,000km...and its $100, no problems...

But, maybe I'm the only one....never had an electrical issue...all the wires work good, and the original brakes on my vehicle just got changed after 6 years and 105,000km...so I can't complain, in 35,000km and 6 years, had the battery replaced, brakes, oil changes, that's about it...

Anywho, just wanted to put my $0.02 out there...again maybe I'm lucky or something but my car is good.

Hydraglass
Premium Member
join:2002-05-08

Hydraglass

Premium Member

said by nitzguy:

I challenge this Jetta electrical issue....being the owner of an 08 City Jetta that I drive 144km/day round trip, I find it pretty good on gas, I guess 6.9 isn't in the 5.7 range...and the cost of changing oil, I challenge that, I change mine every 15,000-18,000km...and its $100, no problems...

But, maybe I'm the only one....never had an electrical issue...all the wires work good, and the original brakes on my vehicle just got changed after 6 years and 105,000km...so I can't complain, in 35,000km and 6 years, had the battery replaced, brakes, oil changes, that's about it...

Anywho, just wanted to put my $0.02 out there...again maybe I'm lucky or something but my car is good.

I don't think they are "all" bad - they just have a higher rate of internal control issues - things like cruise not working, window regulators flaking out, lighting controls acting weird, audio system problems, etc -- it's not that they all have these - but consumer reports and many other review sites all say the Jetta has a "significantly higher than average" incidence rate (perhaps its 35 in 100 vs. 20 in 100 -- sure 65 out of 100 are fine -- but that's not as good as 80 of 100).

$100/oil change is a bit more than twice the price of a normal oil change - I pay $44 for my current ones, every 7500 miles (12,000 km) as per the Mfg. documents -- The Jetta would be $100 every 18,000km -- in 300,000 km it's not a huge difference but it works out to about 25 x $44 ($1100) vs. 17 x $100 ($1700) - so its only $600 more for the diesel, but add that to the additional $2000 or so in vehicle cost and it's one more thing that erases some of the savings in the fuel economy... the extra 10c/L for diesel over petrol also erases some of the savings.. Some of the other maintenance things add overall cost too as compared to petrol -- my rough math basically says unless you can consistently see at least 1.5L/100 increase in fuel economy you're barely going to break even at best.
peterboro (banned)
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join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned)

Member

My top picks would be Civic and Corolla. They have been to most reliable of all the vehicles I have ever owned. The Corolla we had was abused beyond belief but wouldn't die. I'm looking at a 2013 Volkswagen Golf on Friday for $325.00 but haven't decided yet if I will settle for a 2 door.

dirtyjeffer0
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to Hydraglass

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to Hydraglass
said by Hydraglass:

Good feedback - I don't know anyone who has the current gen - I do know someone who has a current gen Mitsu Lancer and and can't wait to get rid of it.. so that one never made it on my list right from the start. I do like the idea of AWD for those sno and ice covered drives on 401 - a good AWD with 4 good snows (like the Blizzaks or XIce) is a formidable winter commuter without a doubt.

i wouldn't recommend a Mits...they are nice looking cars (some of them), but that's about it...i'm waiting for them to pull out of the North American market, to be honest...they only sell about 80,000 vehicles/year here...i don't know how they stay in business as it is (here).

a "buddy" on another forum just bought a crosstrek last fall...he and his wife love it, it gets much better fuel economy than the Outback they traded in for it, and there is no denying the quality of the AWD system that Subaru uses (arguably the best in the business)...it also has good visibility, plenty of ground clearance and has a practical amount of space if you need to make a trip to Ikea or something...i doubt you'll hit your fuel economy target, but if driven nicely, you likely wont be too far off what most other cars would be and they won't offer this much space or AWD...it isn't perfect by any means, but i'd check it out if i were you.

plus, it comes in a cool orange colour.




dirtyjeffer0

dirtyjeffer0 to peterboro

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to peterboro
said by peterboro:

My top picks would be Civic and Corolla. They have been to most reliable of all the vehicles I have ever owned. The Corolla we had was abused beyond belief but wouldn't die. I'm looking at a 2013 Volkswagen Golf on Friday for $325.00 but haven't decided yet if I will settle for a 2 door.

a 1 year old car for $325?...i'm almost afraid to ask what's wrong with it.
peterboro (banned)
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join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned)

Member

Nothing a buffing pad and some wax won't fix...sorta. Just the usual "little" scrapes and scratches on cars I get.

dirtyjeffer0
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London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

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i don't know what trim that car is, but i would imagine it has to be worth at least $20k...$325 seems awfully low...was it at the bottom of a lake or something?
peterboro (banned)
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Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned)

Member

No brand on title and runs and drives. Fender bender on the passenger side. Bids are at $325.00 with no reserve. Foreign buyer may outbid me though. My niece wants it for her cleaning business hence the 4 door.

dirtyjeffer0
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

i assume all the airbags went off then?...can't see how an almost new car be written off and sold for $325 (or whatever it goes for).

i know for many small cars, if the airbags get deployed, they junk the car.
peterboro (banned)
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join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned)

Member

Curtain went off. You buy the airbags and control module as a set any way so it doesn't matter the degree of deployment. It was $500.00 for the last Civic I did.

LazMan
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join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

LazMan to Hydraglass

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to Hydraglass
I'd rethink the diesel - the Misses may have the ol' stinky, rattly, smoking image in her mind... The new ones are nothing like that.

My Dad beats the highway in a similar fashion as you... He's on his 3rd VW diesel (Golf, Jetta x 2) - he put 500k+ on the Golf; 320+ on the first Jetta before a deer committed suicide on his hood, and it was written off.

2013 Jetta TDI is pretty easily doable for 25k - you're looking about 6.1l/100k on the highway; and they are bulletproof.

»www.allistonvw.com/preow ··· 007146e7

Here's one not too far from me, just as a for-instance... They aren't going to have all the bells and whistles you're looking for, but can add Sat radio for a couple hundred bucks aftermarket - and don't know if the leather is a deal-breaker or not.

Worth a look, anyways.

dirtyjeffer0
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London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

i've left the diesel's out the equation simply because he said he wasn't interested.

the driving being done is certainly the style of driving that diesel engines like (they don't like short stop and go style driving)...i've posted it before, but here is a review of the current generation Passat TDi, which is much larger and would be a substantial upgrade (in terms of a highway cruiser), that achieved 4.5L/100km on the highway...it flat out owns in fuel economy (but would be tricky to get in that $30k number, the Jetta would fit in there, and the new model is improved over the previous one, even though they look the same).

»www.autos.ca/first-drive ··· t/?all=1

Hydraglass
Premium Member
join:2002-05-08

Hydraglass

Premium Member

said by dirtyjeffer0:

i've left the diesel's out the equation simply because he said he wasn't interested.

the driving being done is certainly the style of driving that diesel engines like (they don't like short stop and go style driving)...i've posted it before, but here is a review of the current generation Passat TDi, which is much larger and would be a substantial upgrade (in terms of a highway cruiser), that achieved 4.5L/100km on the highway...it flat out owns in fuel economy (but would be tricky to get in that $30k number, the Jetta would fit in there, and the new model is improved over the previous one, even though they look the same).

»www.autos.ca/first-drive ··· t/?all=1

It's funny - about 3 months ago I actually went to the VW dealer and drove the Passat TDi - I loved it - but to get what I want I have to buy the Highline trim - the Comfortline really leaves me lacking in many of the features I want. The Highline in TDi with taxes and fees in (no additional options at all) is $41400 based on the MSRP.. even if I could get 10% off with some heavy duty haggle - I'd be at $37,000 -- which means my cost per km goes wayyyy up even with the better fuel economy. Even the gas powered passat Highline is listed at around $38,500 "all-in".

Even if I got the exact numbers they quote on the highway, using a 300,000km 5 year vehicle life I'm pushing 25c/km (not counting repairs - just fuel/insurance/standard maintenance/tires/etc). With a Corolla S or Civic Touring or Elantra Limited - even if I only get 6L/100 (since we know I won't quite get the 4.8 to 5.4 they are advertising) I'm still looking at a per km cost of only 19c or so per km... My goal all along is to keep it under 20c/Km - keeping my daily commute to an "all-in" cost of around $50.

The diesel isn't even worth arguing about - if I buy one I won't be married next month... the smell of diesel fuel alone makes her ill and is just one reason I'm not fighting it.

dirtyjeffer0
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London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

you could get the same engine/transmission combo in the Jetta though, which is less expensive, smaller (but still decent in size), and doesn't require the urea additive either (not that it is really that expensive anyway)...but loaded up, it would really be pushing your $30k budget...like you said, you would prefer to stay under it and you don't want a diesel...if you are curious though, check out the new Jetta with the 1.8T engine (which now replaces the 2.5L I5 in previous models)...it gets very good reviews, is decent on fuel, and you may like it...you can likely get it within your budget.

i'm not pushing you to any one car, just suggesting a few ones you should have on your list...they are all good cars, buy the one you like the most.