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ings
Premium Member
join:2004-12-22
Toronto, ON

ings to cepnot4me

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Re: New Hybrid Fibre packages

said by cepnot4me:

My grandmother is using an ipad on a flex plan and it runs about $25/month.

Good observation. This is how I set up my father's iPad. Plus it only cost me $10 a month, since I was adding it as an extra device to an existing share plan.

Graeme
@rogers.com

Graeme to dann

Anon

to dann
that is a hell of a discount, how do you go about it, because the most I can seem to get is 20% off both Internet and Cable (the only services I have with them)

I got a good will credit to account for me paying 122.99 for 150Mbps vs 86 for the new package, but that only covers 3 months and doesn't really save me anything seeing as I should be able to upgrade to the new 150 even though there computers won't let me.

Breadwinka
join:2008-06-08
Kitchener, ON

Breadwinka

Member

said by Graeme :

that is a hell of a discount, how do you go about it, because the most I can seem to get is 20% off both Internet and Cable (the only services I have with them)

I got a good will credit to account for me paying 122.99 for 150Mbps vs 86 for the new package, but that only covers 3 months and doesn't really save me anything seeing as I should be able to upgrade to the new 150 even though there computers won't let me.

Thats because the new 150 package is 150/15 vs 150/10, the new package does require the CGN 3 but also requires your house to support the 250/20 tier as well. Once the 250 tier rolls out to your area you can upgrade

tom_tom
join:2009-01-17
toronto

tom_tom

Member

I think forcing CGN3 on those 150/15 packages is an overkill. That modem can bond up to 24 channels downstream, which gives you 1Gbps bandwidth. Why such a big overhead?
Is DOCSIS designed the way that each individual modem has to support the maximum bandwidth of the entire node? I don't think so. Even if you have 24 channels available on the node, but all the modems can bond only up to 8 channels, I think the cable device on the ISP side should be able to assign different 8-channel blocks to different modems (i.e. my modem uses channels 1-8, your modem uses channel 9-16 etc). No?

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

IN fact, it does work that way to some extent. That's how you get more customers on a single cable segment.

There are a lot more "channels" available than just 24 as the changes in TV are proceeding

tom_tom
join:2009-01-17
toronto

tom_tom

Member

What changes? Do you mean the elimination of analog TV channels?
Do you have any more information about it? I'm curious.

SimplePanda
BSD
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Montreal, QC

1 edit

SimplePanda to tom_tom

Premium Member

to tom_tom
said by tom_tom:

I think forcing CGN3 on those 150/15 packages is an overkill. That modem can bond up to 24 channels downstream, which gives you 1Gbps bandwidth. Why such a big overhead?
Is DOCSIS designed the way that each individual modem has to support the maximum bandwidth of the entire node? I don't think so. Even if you have 24 channels available on the node, but all the modems can bond only up to 8 channels, I think the cable device on the ISP side should be able to assign different 8-channel blocks to different modems (i.e. my modem uses channels 1-8, your modem uses channel 9-16 etc). No?

This has been discussed a lot.

The more channels each subscriber is bonded to the less likelihood of node congestion. If you have 2 customers at 150/15 on 8 channel modems and both of them dime their connections, the third customer on an 8 channel modem is now eating into their bandwidth (and not getting full bandwidth for themselves).

If you have those same 2-3 customers on 24 channels they all can pull 150Mbps at the same time.

It's an oversimplification but 100 customers at 20Mbps on 24 channels (9.6Mbps per customer at maximum throughput) will each get more throughput than 100 customers at 20Mbps on 8 channels (3.2Mbps per customer at maximum throughput).

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook to tom_tom

Mod

to tom_tom
said by tom_tom:

What changes? Do you mean the elimination of analog TV channels?
Do you have any more information about it? I'm curious.

As TV has gone digital, there's a lot more analogue channels freed up ... giving about 40Mbps downstream shared per channel.

Upstream too gets more space since it's currently capped below TV channel "1" (approx 50MHz)

For more info look up DOCSIS in wikipedia

tom_tom
join:2009-01-17
toronto

tom_tom

Member

sbrook, I know the technical details. I was more interested in how far Rogers is in terms of elimination analog channels. Are all those analog channels eliminated yet? What kind of potential speeds can they offer in the near future?

I'm wondering whether that 250/20 package is still based on cable, or FTTH. I would say cable. And in this case I can understand the requirement for a better modem.

SimplePanda
BSD
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Montreal, QC

SimplePanda

Premium Member

said by tom_tom:

sbrook, I know the technical details. I was more interested in how far Rogers is in terms of elimination analog channels. Are all those analog channels eliminated yet? What kind of potential speeds can they offer in the near future?

I'm wondering whether that 250/20 package is still based on cable, or FTTH. I would say cable. And in this case I can understand the requirement for a better modem.

250/20 is DOCSIS 3.0. The only FTTH Rogers has is the 350/350 package, and that is only available to like 3 houses in Forest Hill as far as anyone can tell.
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

yyzlhr to tom_tom

Member

to tom_tom
It depends on the area. Some areas are all digital already and others are still moving one or two channels per month.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook to SimplePanda

Mod

to SimplePanda
and a few new build condos in Ottawa within spitting distance of the fallowfield head end. Those services are Cable over fibre ... which is essentially "you get your own limited capacity node".
cepnot4me
join:2013-10-29
L0C 1K0

cepnot4me to tom_tom

Member

to tom_tom
Not all the analog channels will be available to Rogers to use as they please. The CRTC is reclaiming some of it. They dictate what frequencies go where and what is on them.

That being said, the first batch to go back was 700mhz.

Rogers won the auction for it. Lol

They have deployed it in Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver to support LTE.

No more dropped calls in elevators!

tom_tom
join:2009-01-17
toronto

tom_tom

Member

I think we were talking about bandwidth in cables, not wireless
cepnot4me
join:2013-10-29
L0C 1K0

cepnot4me

Member

Everything is on frequencies. 700 mhz used to be your channels above 50 or so. Analog signal, digital signal, Internet bandwidth, blue tooth, cellular, air traffic control, FM radio it's all just a different frequency. As low as 5mhz up to 6000mhz maybe higher.

It's all FM spectrum and it can be whatever the CRTC says it can be.
cepnot4me

cepnot4me

Member

What I want to see is more open frequencies.
2.4 ghz and 5ghz are public or unowned. You could invent a new data transfer protocol, put it on 2.4ghz and not have to pay a penny or ask for rights from a license holder.

But if you want to use any other frequency you need to get permissions.
2.4ghz if you have a scanner like Wi-spy or any type of spectrum analyzer is so saturated. Wifi, bluetooth,Zigbee, cordless phones home theatres, so on and so on is all in 2.4ghz.

Crap wifi reception? There is probably 30 other things in the same range. 6+ on each channel.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook to cepnot4me

Mod

to cepnot4me
Pardon? FM spectrum? No such thing.

FM is a modulation technique ... a mechansim for putting a signal with varying amplitude and frequency onto a carrier signal.
AM is another ... amplitude modulation
QAM is another ... quadrature amplitude modulation
PM is another ... phase modulation

What we call the "FM band" is a part of the OTA frequency spectrum used for commercial radio broadcasting on frequencies between 88 and 108 MHz. The stations in that band use Frequency Modulation for its better signal quality and that's why the term was used.

Frequency spectrum ...

ELF extremely low frequency 3Hz to 30Hz
SLF superlow frequency 30Hz to 300Hz
ULF ultralow frequency 300Hz to 3000Hz
VLF very low frequency 3kHz to 30kHz
LF low frequency 30kHz to 300kHz
MF medium frequency 300kHz to 3000kHz
HF high frequency 3MHz to 30MHz
VHF very high frequency 30MHz to 300MHz
UHF ultrahigh frequency 300MHz to 3000MHz
SHF superhigh frequency 3GHz to 30GHz
EHF extremely high frequency 30GHz to 300GHz

What we call AM radio operates in the MF spectrum
FM band is in part of the VHF spectrum between TV channels 6 and 7
TV Channels 2-13 operate in VHF
TV Channels 14 and up operate in UHF

Cable channels are allocated differently in the VHF and UHF spectrum. In most areas the frequency usage over cable is NOT restricted by regulation, except in a very few areas where there is sensitive radio communications. In all areas there is a limit on the leakage of the cable which permits the lack of restriction. In some areas there is an even tighter limit.

This is NOTHING whatever to do with the Frequency auctions for cellular wireless spectrum.
cepnot4me
join:2013-10-29
L0C 1K0

cepnot4me

Member

I feel schooled.

Now I will admit, I can learn plenty here.
Ignoring my calling FM spectrum.

Regardless. One analog channel is transmitted on one frequency.

In that frequency you can fit 10 digital channels.
Or 4-5 HD channels.

The removal of analog, opens up all the frequencies they were on for repurposing.
700mhz is the first band of analog repurposed.
Formerly analog cable 50,51,52 I think.
Rogers bought the right to the spectrum and is now using it to provide enhancements over cellular.

I'm saying a frequency is a frequency that can be used for anything.

CRTC decided what each frequency would be used for. Now that Analog is not to be used, all of the frequencies they were on, are being repurposed.

In 700mhz, it was analog, now it is cellular.

I feel like your disagreeing with me...

If so. I think your wrong, but I do have some doubt in. myself as well.
cepnot4me

cepnot4me

Member

Never mind. Googled it, I see where I've gone wrong I think.

The 700mhz they bought wasn't all of 700mhz. And doesn't necessarily cover the blocks the old analog stations were on?

Sbrook you do seem to know it better though, so I'm happy to read a post flaming me out.

*hangs head and waits.
cepnot4me

cepnot4me

Member

Dammit! I was right.

UHF is being repurposed
Copy and paste from popular mechanics.

"Well, for UHF channels 60 to 69 the future will be decided starting this week as the Federal Communications Commission begins to auction that reclaimed bandwidth, bringing at least $10 billion into the treasury from auction winners and possibly allowing a dramatic expansion of wireless spectrum for cellular voice and data communication. Or maybe not, since it is just as likely these frequencies will be bought by incumbent wireless providers who may choose to simply let the channels go unused so as not to threaten their existing businesses. "

SimplePanda
BSD
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Montreal, QC

SimplePanda to cepnot4me

Premium Member

to cepnot4me
said by cepnot4me:

No more dropped calls in elevators!

LTE isn't used for calls at the moment, at least not by Rogers.

The 700mhz frequencies Rogers bought are just going to be for high speed data. All Rogers LTE phones use UMTS (or GSM) for voice.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook to cepnot4me

Mod

to cepnot4me


Ex"cep"t ...

(and I hope you don't think I'm flaming you out ... just been dealing with all this stuff since I was a kid and that's nearly 50 years of experience so it's a matter of edjamucation not flaming!)

That's OTA channels 60-69 in the USA. Gotta remember that in North America there have been very very few channels on UHF because there was no pressure to move from VHF to UHF as in the UK

As an aside ...

In the UK, different broadcast television standards were adopted. Originally TV was broadcast in 405 line positive video on VHF channels 1-13 (yeah that's a part of the mystery of what happened to channel 1) This was a very coarse resolution and highly incompatible with the world! So they adopted a new 625 line format ... which to ease separation, they put on UHF channels. 405 eventually was phased out freeing the VHF spectrum leaving all TV on UHF.

Back to the plot ...

Reclaiming the lightly used 60-69 that freed that spectrum for repurposing. BUT again, that doesn't matter to cable. They can use channels 60-69 largely with impunity still. As an example ... CFTO (Canada's Foremost, Toronto's Own for those who remember!) broadcasts on channel 9 OTA ... Cable 9 is the same frequency but is used for Crossroads Television (which doesn't broadcast OTA) ... and they normally don't interfere with each other as long as there's no ingress.

So, it's irrelvent what the frequencies are used for OTA when it comes to channel allocation on cable.

EXCEPT!

VHF frequencies from 30 - 50 MHz used for internet upstream! Because ingress into the cable network is much higher at these frequencies, there are signal issues which is part of why prior to the use of bonded upstream and QAM on the upstream, Rogers had to go and check and upgrade all the cable segments to ensure that the Signal to noise was acceptable.
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

yyzlhr to cepnot4me

Member

to cepnot4me
said by cepnot4me:

Never mind. Googled it, I see where I've gone wrong I think.

The 700mhz they bought wasn't all of 700mhz. And doesn't necessarily cover the blocks the old analog stations were on?

Sbrook you do seem to know it better though, so I'm happy to read a post flaming me out.

*hangs head and waits.

There's likely some overlap. I've heard of some stories where Verizon's LTE which runs primarily on 700mhz was interfering with cable tv channels that run on the same frequency.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

That's often because of ingress and not the use of the same frequencies ...

Common reasons for ingress

a) poor cables (damaged ... not suited for UHF channels ... poor shielding like on RG-59)

b) poor connectors (damaged etc)

c) poor or damaged splitters or other accessories in the cable lines.

d) poor televisions!
wayner92
join:2006-01-17
Toronto, ON

wayner92 to SimplePanda

Member

to SimplePanda
said by SimplePanda See ProfileLTE isn't used for calls at the moment, at least not by Rogers.
[/bquote :

How come when I phone someone on an LTE phone, either another iphone (I have an iPhone 5) or a BB Z10 or Q10 user, I get a much higher fidelity call? I thought this was due to something like VOLTE.

yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

yyzlhr

Member

Likely due to HD voice which uses a different codec when calls are made between HD voice capable devices. At the moment voice calls are not supported over LTE but eventually it will be.

TypeS
join:2012-12-17
London, ON

TypeS to wayner92

Member

to wayner92
I don't think any large carrier has deployed VoLTE just yet. Pretty sure when you call someone, it goes over 3G. I forget the specifics of how it works but that's the gist of it.

TLS2000
Premium Member
join:2004-02-24
Elmsdale, NS
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Ubiquiti U6-LR
Ubiquiti UniFi UAP-nanoHD

TLS2000 to cepnot4me

Premium Member

to cepnot4me
said by cepnot4me:

Not all the analog channels will be available to Rogers to use as they please. The CRTC is reclaiming some of it. They dictate what frequencies go where and what is on them.

That being said, the first batch to go back was 700mhz.

Rogers won the auction for it. Lol

They have deployed it in Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver to support LTE.

No more dropped calls in elevators!

I think one thing missed here is that over the cable plant, Rogers can generally use whatever frequencies they want. 700mhz LTE will receive negligible interference from any cable infrastructure, but the cable plant must accept interference from licenced spectrum. That means if any licenced spectrum interferes with the cable plant (distorting channels, for instance), Rogers needs to fix that problem themselves.

Rogers is free to do whatever they want with the cable infrastructure. The reason that they're getting rid of analog is so that they can have more of those frequencies (including within the 700mhz range) within the cable plant available for digital services, such as cable modems, home phone, home alarms and digital tv.

SimplePanda
BSD
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Montreal, QC

SimplePanda to wayner92

Premium Member

to wayner92
It's due to HD Voice; basically when the carrier detects that both phones on a call support wideband audio it places the call using an upgraded audio codec. Still happens over UMTS though (not LTE).
cepnot4me
join:2013-10-29
L0C 1K0

cepnot4me to sbrook

Member

to sbrook
Ingress I know. Most ingress aside from poor wiring and splitters is caused by VCRS. Another big one is those radio shack amps. VCRS hands down were the biggest culprits in passing ingress into the plant and driving up the noise floor.