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Criticals
join:2010-05-30

Criticals

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Wildstar Raiding is the real deal.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=te1O4bgzlTA#t=04m05s

So I recently got a chance to see some of the raiding in the upcoming MMO by Carbine Wildstar. The game launches with 20 and 40 man raids. The 40 mans look incredibly hard. The thing that looks great about this raiding is that its not based on numbers as much as previous mmos but more based on movement. DPS checks exist and damage and healing is certainly important but what comes down survival is individual player skill. You are responsible for your own life and nothing can save a bad player in these raids. I like the idea of everyone carrying their own weight. Im sure this game will have longevity because of this raiding mentality.

Tirael
BOHICA
Premium Member
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA

Tirael

Premium Member

I can almost bet 40 man raids will last approximately 4 patches before they are scrapped.
Criticals
join:2010-05-30

Criticals

Member

said by Tirael:

I can almost bet 40 man raids will last approximately 4 patches before they are scrapped.

Whats your thought process on this? Too many players required for them? Too hard? Just to clarify the only way to get the best gear is through the 40 man raids and it is different gear altogether. Not an upper tier of the same gear available in 20 mans. Leaving people who avoid them left out. Also it isnt 20 and 40 man versions of the same raid. They are their own separate thing.

Goggalor
Psychonaut
Premium Member
join:2009-06-09
Your Mind!

Goggalor

Premium Member

He is basing this off of WoW and what happened there. Raiding progressed from 40 man down to 25 man because it is easier to get 25 non-derpers together than 40 and it is easier for the developer (Blizz in WoW's case) to balance for less people. I know I would rather do 10 or 20 mans instead of 40 mans (I did all of them and too many people just don't do shit/carry their weight in 40 mans).

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall

MVM

said by Goggalor:

He is basing this off of WoW and what happened there. Raiding progressed from 40 man down to 25 man because it is easier to get 25 non-derpers together than 40 and it is easier for the developer (Blizz in WoW's case) to balance for less people. I know I would rather do 10 or 20 mans instead of 40 mans (I did all of them and too many people just don't do shit/carry their weight in 40 mans).

Either that or you make the 40 man raids easy so one guy doesn't cause complete disaster. I still remember back in Vanilla wow when one person who is "The Bomb" on Baron Gedon would wipe an entire 40 man raid.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus

Premium Member

Nothing like chasing down your healers and taunting them with a hug over Vent. Good times.

Goggalor
Psychonaut
Premium Member
join:2009-06-09
Your Mind!

Goggalor to Nightfall

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to Nightfall
said by Nightfall:

said by Goggalor:

He is basing this off of WoW and what happened there. Raiding progressed from 40 man down to 25 man because it is easier to get 25 non-derpers together than 40 and it is easier for the developer (Blizz in WoW's case) to balance for less people. I know I would rather do 10 or 20 mans instead of 40 mans (I did all of them and too many people just don't do shit/carry their weight in 40 mans).

Either that or you make the 40 man raids easy so one guy doesn't cause complete disaster. I still remember back in Vanilla wow when one person who is "The Bomb" on Baron Gedon would wipe an entire 40 man raid.

Or Astromancer Solarian.

puppy
join:2010-01-28
San Diego, CA

puppy

Member

By the time I left WOW it was hard enough to get 10 people to show up consistently... :P

I think the trend of going for more casual MMO experience makes it unlikely all but a few guilds/clans will do this consistently, which is very little payback for a bunch of developer's time and effort.

Tirael
BOHICA
Premium Member
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA

Tirael to Goggalor

Premium Member

to Goggalor
said by Goggalor:

He is basing this off of WoW

I am basing it off every MMO I have ever played. Anything larger than 20 players (In WoW, anything larger than 10) is a) a PITA to balance b)chasing down afkers c) hard to recruit for. It has nothing to do with it being hard. Raiding in general isn't hard. Dodge stuff. Pew pew, tank, heal. It is always the same. I am okay with a game requiring skill. I think most players are not okay with a game requiring 40 people to work together. That adds a level of arbitrary difficulty that is just ridiculous.

Xioden
Premium Member
join:2008-06-10
Monticello, NY

Xioden

Premium Member

said by Tirael:

Raiding in general isn't hard. Dodge stuff.

If there is one thing I learned from playing WoW, it is not to stand in fire.

If there is a second thing I learned from playing WoW, it is that no one else ever learned not to stand in fire.

puppy
join:2010-01-28
San Diego, CA

puppy

Member

I eventually got to where I would move out of fire... into another patch of fire

Pollux7777
join:2010-02-16
Saint Paul, MN

Pollux7777 to Nightfall

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to Nightfall
said by Nightfall:

I still remember back in Vanilla wow when one person who is "The Bomb" on Baron Gedon would wipe an entire 40 man raid.

I remember back in vanilla, blackwing lair, the 2nd boss. What was his name? The dragon who gave you unlimited mana/energy/rage. Whatever his name was. He also targeted individual players and turned them into the bomb.

We wiped on that guys for weeks. Literally weeks. Just smashing face over and over and over.

Then the night came when we finally got him. It was really close. Many of the DPS were dead, we scraped by just barely. There was much rejoicing in vent.

We quickly started to gather to take a guild picture when one of our pallies named Jeren yells over vent "ALLAH HU AKBAR!!" and runs right into the group and explodes killing everyone.

Cat5
join:2013-04-26

Cat5 to Tirael

Member

to Tirael
said by Tirael:

I can almost bet 40 man raids will last approximately 4 patches before they are scrapped.

I have to say I agree.

This isn't 2004, it's 2014 and gaming has changed drastically. The vast majority of MMO gamers are now casuals and/or kids who want everything handed to them. 40 players is just far too many to administrate, educate and rely upon. As mentioned 40 man in WoW didn't work, when the gaming community was more open to it. People who liked the 40 man experience are viewing it with some roses tinted glasses I feel. Even in today's model with the 40 man world bosses it doesn't work. How many people in your Ordos group don't perform well for whatever reason? How badly was Oondasta nerfed as very few realms had the players with enough skill to down him.

All the above is before you mention the increased lag, which will seriously hamper those with even the fastest PC if they have dodgy broadband. I healed a dungeon last night with a heroic geared DK tank who kept dropping out as his lag was so bad. No way would he have been able to cope with 40 players.
Criticals
join:2010-05-30

Criticals

Member

Yea 40 mans could very well crash and burn. Is anyone watching the videos though or just basing it off of wow 40 mans. I think offering better and different gear is the key. Let's face it, people are motivated by gear. When it comes down to it at max level progression and gear go hand and hand. I think however they have the right idea with offering gear as a reward and not a requirement. Most of the impressions I have read so far have been that the raids are primarily skill based. Meaning everything isn't a dps check and it's more on dodging and surviving than actual dps. Of course dps and hps matters it's just not the end all.

Krisnatharok
PC Builder, Gamer
Premium Member
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit

1 recommendation

Krisnatharok

Premium Member

said by Criticals:

I think offering better and different gear is the key. Let's face it, people are motivated by gear. When it comes down to it at max level progression and gear go hand and hand. I think however they have the right idea with offering gear as a reward and not a requirement. Most of the impressions I have read so far have been that the raids are primarily skill based. Meaning everything isn't a dps check and it's more on dodging and surviving than actual dps. Of course dps and hps matters it's just not the end all.

None of this has anything to do with the logistics of getting 40 people + alternates to show up together. Not gonna happen.

The Flash
Premium Member
join:2002-10-17
Toronto, ON

1 edit

The Flash to Criticals

Premium Member

to Criticals
PM me for a beta key, have one for US and one for EU.

Edit: US gone

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall to Krisnatharok

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to Krisnatharok
said by Krisnatharok:

said by Criticals:

I think offering better and different gear is the key. Let's face it, people are motivated by gear. When it comes down to it at max level progression and gear go hand and hand. I think however they have the right idea with offering gear as a reward and not a requirement. Most of the impressions I have read so far have been that the raids are primarily skill based. Meaning everything isn't a dps check and it's more on dodging and surviving than actual dps. Of course dps and hps matters it's just not the end all.

None of this has anything to do with the logistics of getting 40 people + alternates to show up together. Not gonna happen.

If the 40 people are not based on skill, it should be easy.
Tehuno
join:2005-01-18
Bartlesville, OK

Tehuno to Pollux7777

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to Pollux7777
Vael was always one of my favorite bosses.
Criticals
join:2010-05-30

Criticals to Krisnatharok

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to Krisnatharok
Im not saying that it would be easy getting 40 people in raiding groups together. Im saying that this is bigger motivation for people to aspire to join 40 man guilds if their is a different and greater reward. Because no matter how good the 20 man guilds are performing they will always be a step below the 40 man guilds. The point im trying to make is that people will be more likely to go through with the pain and logistical part of organizing forty people for a unique and more powerful reward with different raids and bosses.

Oh and what i meant by it being more skill based instead of gear based is that even a raider with less gear will always out perform a raider who cant stand in stuff but has the better gear. It means that picking up players who arent necessarily fully geared up but who know how to play well will actually be a possibility instead of looking at a players armory and trying to figure out how much of a contribution a player would be to the raid based on their current gear.

Cat5
join:2013-04-26

Cat5 to Nightfall

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to Nightfall
said by Nightfall:

If the 40 people are not based on skill, it should be easy.

Where is the fun in having 40 noobs try a boss? It's either going to fail epically or the fight is going to be so faceroll it's going to make the lower player requirement raids obsolete as everyone will just go 40 man in a PUG.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall

MVM

said by Cat5:

said by Nightfall:

If the 40 people are not based on skill, it should be easy.

Where is the fun in having 40 noobs try a boss? It's either going to fail epically or the fight is going to be so faceroll it's going to make the lower player requirement raids obsolete as everyone will just go 40 man in a PUG.

The downfall of 40 man raids had to do with skill in WoW. You are right. What is the fun in having 40 noobs do this if its a faceroll. Wildstar could make it work by offering 40 man raids in different skill brackets.

Yea, I know, it caters to people who suck at the game. After playing WoW hardcore and being one of those players who believed that scrubs shouldn't get gear, I have changed my attitude on it. Its a game. Screw it. Let people have fun.

monchis
Premium Member
join:2002-12-09
00000

monchis to Tirael

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to Tirael
Ever played a lineage 2 raid? Don't think those ever got scrapped.

Cat5
join:2013-04-26

Cat5 to Nightfall

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to Nightfall
said by Nightfall:

The downfall of 40 man raids had to do with skill in WoW. You are right. What is the fun in having 40 noobs do this if its a faceroll. Wildstar could make it work by offering 40 man raids in different skill brackets.

This is where 40 man raiding falls apart though. 40 people is a lot to be on at the same time, for the same length of time, and to all have the same skill level. As soon as you introduce brackets you're reducing the player pool even more. For each 40 man raid you can have four 10 man raids.
said by Nightfall:

Yea, I know, it caters to people who suck at the game. After playing WoW hardcore and being one of those players who believed that scrubs shouldn't get gear, I have changed my attitude on it. Its a game. Screw it. Let people have fun.

I'm a very casual player but I have old school ethics to a degree. I think end game raiding should be open to all and WoW is currently leading the way with the introduction of flex. LFR was a bad idea, and giving LFR players tier bonuses was even worse. Flex can have from 10-25 players and I'd say the average is about 13-14. If people are only able to take that few people, how would 40 man raiding fit? Lets not forget WoW is also huge, Wildstar won't be anywhere near those subscriber numbers at the start so the 40 man raids will literally only be done by the hardcore of hardcore guilds. Whilst it's nice to reward this sort of player, having entire raids go by which are only seen by 1 or 2% of the playerbase just isn't good business. Having an extra difficulty, or a hardcore only boss is a much better way to reward those players and make sure developers time isn't wasted.
Criticals
join:2010-05-30

1 edit

Criticals

Member

So im the opposite thinking with this. I know a large percentage of the mmo community is casual players who dont have the time or the drive to try and get the better gear. I for one welcome the firm stance they are taking with their most elite content. I think thats where the drive is built from. Make hard content for hardcore players and the hardcore mmo players will flock to your game. Keep it unattainable. Maybe nerf it after the next expansion is released but remove most of the achievements and titles.

I think the key element here is:

A) it has to be different bosses and not just harder versions of the bosses someone has seen before. This keeps the place an enigma to the players that havent gotten in their yet. Even if they dont go, its human nature to wonder.

B) It has to offer different loot and not upper tiers of the same looking gear that is offered in easier raids. This makes the elite players stand out even from a distance. When an elite player rolls in through town he will be instantly different from surrounding players.

C) Skill based raiding where you can be competitive without having strict DPS requirements by staying out of stuff. In other words less unavoidable damage and huge burn phases and more movement based fights and precision DPS when required.

I think their has been a study done on this type of human behavior. Its like if you give someone an easy task (5 minutes) and they get a McDonalds 1$ burger and then a 30 min task that gets them a significantly better burger (5 Guys) then there is little people that will go that extra mile for a better version of the same reward. Now when steak is offered in place of a gourmet burger you have people doing the extra task or at least attempting it. I hope they keep elite content for the elite players even if 1-2% of the player base gets to see it. The developers have stated this exact thing but we will see how long they stand by their word.
Gami00
join:2010-03-11
Mississauga, ON

Gami00

Member

I have to agree with ya and wildstar's stance as well.

there are plenty of casual/newb friendly games now. WoW/ESO for the sub based ones, and tons of F2P MMOs too many to list that also cater to that same player base.

Wildstar is going for the more hardcore player base and they probably in the right to do it.

they're not trying to get WOW numbers of sub, they're looking for their niche sub segment and go with it from there.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall

MVM

said by Gami00:

I have to agree with ya and wildstar's stance as well.

there are plenty of casual/newb friendly games now. WoW/ESO for the sub based ones, and tons of F2P MMOs too many to list that also cater to that same player base.

Wildstar is going for the more hardcore player base and they probably in the right to do it.

they're not trying to get WOW numbers of sub, they're looking for their niche sub segment and go with it from there.

So long as they are fine with the low subscriber base, then it will work for them. Look at EVE online for instance. They have never tried catering to the mass player base. The difficulty is higher than many other games out there. As long as the company is good with not having high sub numbers, then it will succeed.

I guess we will see how it goes for Wildstar.

Cat5
join:2013-04-26

Cat5

Member

said by Nightfall:

So long as they are fine with the low subscriber base, then it will work for them. Look at EVE online for instance. They have never tried catering to the mass player base. The difficulty is higher than many other games out there. As long as the company is good with not having high sub numbers, then it will succeed.

This is bascially what it boils down too.

I'm not being funny but hardcore gamers really are a dying breed. The few left will soon meet a girl and find they have little time for gaming too. The replacements have grown up on having games made easy for them so the entire hardcore ethos isn't going to work for them.
said by Nightfall:

I guess we will see how it goes for Wildstar.

I don't think 40 mans are going to be the norm, more a "this is for the few old skoolers" to lure them in. From what I've seen Wildstar is otherwise a WoW clone, albeit a very good looking one.
Criticals
join:2010-05-30

2 edits

Criticals

Member

Trust me. They have tons of content available for casual players. Just the tippy top of the community will be 40 mans, high ranking arenas, or competitive warplots. Everything else including regular arenas, non-competitive warplots and all of the customization involved in players and housing is meant for the populous. Not to mention adventures. Adventures are like scenarios on steriods. They are missions that small groups of players complete that focus on crazy mechanics. Players are dealing with antigravity mechanics, manning turrets, and going stealth to avoid spotlights to sneak into compounds. Its repeatable content that uses mechanics outside of the standard holy trinity allowing players to have a little more fun.

Its like instantly when you mention a small portion of the game requiring work to give a different and better reward people think they are missing something they are entitled to. Its not even as extreme as something like Eve that requires so many real time lockouts to create something. Its simply a portion of the game designed from the ground up specifically for the hardcore and no one else. This is how an mmo should be imo. This is speaking from a guy that probably wont have time himself to get into the 40 mans but the concept of them will keep me playing.

And it is a WoW clone. In the same sense that the guy who made the second sandwhich ever put something different in between the bread and im sure everyone called that a sandwhich clone. Variation doesnt require reinventing the entire process and I am glad they have kept the things that make MMOs both popular and accessible. This will make the game feel familiar but at the same time they have gone the extra mile to make this game have its own distinct flavor and personality. Its space cowboys! Firefall and Gaurdians of the Galaxy all rolled into one.

Cat5
join:2013-04-26

Cat5

Member

said by Criticals:

Its like instantly when you mention a small portion of the game requiring work to give a different and better reward people think they are missing something they are entitled to. Its not even as extreme as something like Eve that requires so many real time lockouts to create something. Its simply a portion of the game designed from the ground up specifically for the hardcore and no one else. This is how an mmo should be imo. This is speaking from a guy that probably wont have time himself to get into the 40 mans but the concept of them will keep me playing.

From my point of view the cons far outweigh the pros. I've already mentioned that an entire raid takes a lot of development time for a piece of content only a very few elite players will see. The other issue I have is another tier of difficulty gives the elite more to be elitist about. Using WoW as an example when Flex started it was easily doable by a group of players at 520 ilevel, but people creating the groups wanted 530 for no reason other than it made there lives easier. All those players who wanted to make the step up were forced to gear to extreme levels to do content.
said by Criticals:

And it is a WoW clone. In the same sense that the guy who made the second sandwhich ever put something different in between the bread and im sure everyone called that a sandwhich clone. Variation doesnt require reinventing the entire process and I am glad they have kept the things that make MMOs both popular and accessible. This will make the game feel familiar but at the same time they have gone the extra mile to make this game have its own distinct flavor and personality. Its space cowboys! Firefall and Gaurdians of the Galaxy all rolled into one.

I didn't mean WoW clone as derogatory. I'm looking forward to Wildstar although I'll bet Warlords will launch at a similar time.
Criticals
join:2010-05-30

Criticals

Member

Well Wildstar launches June 3rd so I think they will beat WoD to the market by a few months. Still, ill stick to my guns of never buying an MMO till its been out for at least a month. Even if it sets me behind a little.

I think developing content that is out of reach for the masses has a bigger effect that you think. Its why there is always elite things in real life that they know most people will not have the money to afford. It keeps the wheels spinning. It keeps the gears grinding. Some people will only run if their is that carrot in front of them they will never catch. I think this has a similar effect on the mmo population.