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rural oregon
@70.98.39.x

rural oregon

Anon

[CenturyTel] dry copper pair / dry loop / unbundled loop

Hi Guys!

Has anybody been able to order a dry loop from Century ? I'm out of range for a normal ADSL service for Century, but I've got a friend 3 miles away I could connect to with SDSL or something similar and share his connection, I just need to get our two places connected with dry copper. Unfortunately Century doesn't list it as a product anywhere but Wholesale section of their website which is not available to individual customers, and there is no additional contact information of any sorts available.

Thanks!

TAZ
join:2014-01-03
Tucson, AZ

TAZ

Member

Won't be possible, the cross-connect would have to be made at the CO at which point you'll run into the same distance limitation (ignoring DLCs, but same concept).

As far as CL goes your cheapest workable "broadband" (using this loosely) option will be a T1.

rural oregon
@70.98.39.x

rural oregon

Anon

Century says on their website that it can be connected at CO or a similar location such a Distribution Frame. I know where their CO is, but I don't know what are the DF's near the locations, and that would be the first thing to ask them about. Either way, you seem to be addressing the potential technical issue as opposed to the business one.

P.S. yes, I looked at the T1. $470 per month...
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw to TAZ

Member

to TAZ
Actually, if they're each 3 miles from the CO, it's possible that they could do SDSL -- there are some SDSL systems that claim range of 19 kilometers. The line would be VERY slow though, and you may need to bond some pairs in order to get the minimum 192 kb/sec at which SDSL/SHDSL/SHDSL.bis will sync.

If there's something like an SAI that they're both connected to, it may even be more favorable for setting up a point to point connection.

The one thing for OP to be aware of is that whatever connection the friend has may not be resellable. I don't know if CL will really know or care if you're just sharing it one way.

Unfortunately, I don't have any insight into actually getting those pairs, but if you do and if you proceed, please let us know how it goes! It'd be really interesting to see what this ends up being like.

Incidentally, what was the process you used to find out the pricing on a T1? I've been considering it, Level3 will sell you a T1 for just about $200/mo, but I haven't gone very far in that process.
rural oregon
join:2014-04-21
Sheridan, OR

rural oregon

Member

Thanks for your input. Couple of points. The current layout of the location looks like this :

[ my place ] -- 3.2mi -- [ friend's place ] -- 1.5 mi -- [ CO ]

They are on the same route to CO, and those are true distances based on how I see the poles lined up along the road. I understand that he might not be allowed to share his ADSL, and I was prepared to order another line terminated at his place. What I am trying to work around is the fact Century won't do repeated ADSL to reach out to my place.

I used www.t1shopper.com to figure out T1 pricing. Here is the data they gave me :

Nitel (AT&T) T1 1.5 1.5 Yes, included in price 36 Months $469.00
AireSpring T1 1.5 1.5 Yes, included in price 36 Months $513.67
etc...

Level3 doesn't seem to be an option in this area. If I had a way to get a T1 for $200, I would just go ahead and do it

billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV

billaustin

MVM

What is the environment like? You could easily cover that distance with wireless, if you have line of sight between the two locations.

I don't think a dry loop will work for you. They will want to run from the CO to each location, giving you a 6.2 mile loop.
rural oregon
join:2014-04-21
Sheridan, OR

rural oregon

Member

Wireless is out of the question, my place is down in the valley. Not even Verizon has coverage there, and I don't have a line of sight to either friend's place or anywhere else in town. You are the second person to suggest that they'd interconnect at CO, but here is the actual quote from their website:

Unbundled Local Loop is a facility or transmission path between the Distribution Frame or equivalent in the CenturyLink%u2122 Central Office (CO) and the loop Demarcation Point at the end-user premises.

»www.centurylink.com/whol ··· oop.html
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw to billaustin

Member

to billaustin
Although this might be a reasonably terrible idea, if their properties touch, there's not really anything stopping them (again, other than that it's a terrible idea) from just running copper or fiber wiring between their two houses and creating a LAN that way. (Depending on what wildlife there is and how they use their land, this could be a really really impractical idea though.)
rural oregon
join:2014-04-21
Sheridan, OR

rural oregon

Member

I've done large projects like that before, not as long as 3 miles, but close to 2 miles and with a very complex topology. In this case it's out of the question since there is a large number of properties in between. I wouldn't be allowed to use the telephone poles for cable installation either.

billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV

billaustin to rural oregon

MVM

to rural oregon
My reading of that page indicates that they are describing one loop between the CO and your location. To connect two locations, you would need to purchase two loops. You would then connect the two destinations using the co-location space at the CO that you would be renting with your loops.

Have you contacted CL to ask about a loop purchase, or what services they provided that will accomplish what you are trying to do?
brad152
join:2006-07-27
Chicago, IL

brad152 to rural oregon

Member

to rural oregon
Why not just call the utility company that owns the poles and see about renting space? we did that in Ohio for a family member who essentially started a small ISP since he was the only one that could get anything (he was just over the county line and could get fiber, but Verizon was the LL provider literally next door and could not do a working dial-up line)

he pays something like .50/mo each pole he uses, he has a 50/10Mbps fiber line that's shared between ten houses, and only promises 3/256, it's worked out well so far for him. I think his total loop is only around 2.1mi though
rural oregon
join:2014-04-21
Sheridan, OR

rural oregon to billaustin

Member

to billaustin
Didn't you see "Distribution Frame" in the sentence I quoted ? Here is the definition :
quote:
In telecommunications, a distribution frame is a passive device which terminates cables, allowing arbitrary interconnections to be made.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di ··· on_frame

And this is the million dollar question. I have submitted an information request via their website's Business department contact form. I had some rep contact me, he tried to sell me a business ADSL at my friend's place and when I explained to him that it wouldn't do me any good unless he can also set me up with a dry loop to that location he flaked, and suggested I call some support number, which I did. A female rep sounded like she was going "wtf" in her head when I was talking about dry loops, unbundled services, dry copper, alarm circuits, etc.. eventually she had put me on hold to talk to the supervisor, and then came back saying neither her or the super know anything about that, and they can't even tell me where to call and who to talk to (actually my original question for these artists and my OP here). Eventually I called back that first Business guy with that intel, and he only said I can call their T1 people, maybe they'd hook me up with something, but I have to tell them I represent a business or they won't even talk to me.

I really wanted to avoid this narrative her and stick to the business, but obviously we're not going anywhere and it was time I'd share this
rural oregon

rural oregon to brad152

Member

to brad152
Technically that could work, with slightly over $100 per month for 3+ miles. But once we start putting other numbers into place (cabling work, parts, Internet service, possibly permits) it will quickly exceed the cost of T1. It would make sense if I go into the same ISP business, but I am just looking for a personal service at this time with as few complications as possible.

Basically what I need now is for CL to give me an xDSL capable pair from my place to that other place 3 miles away. I know the cost of it would be only some $30 per month since Oregon state regulates the price of dry loops. I don't know what kind of quality is my current disconnected phone line is, but in the best case scenario they would just reuse it up to the DF closest to the other location. Couple of SDSL or VDSL modems, and voila. If I don't get the link to come up, I will just cancel it out and think of something else

TAZ
join:2014-01-03
Tucson, AZ

TAZ to coryw

Member

to coryw
said by coryw:

Actually, if they're each 3 miles from the CO, it's possible that they could do SDSL -- there are some SDSL systems that claim range of 19 kilometers. The line would be VERY slow though, and you may need to bond some pairs in order to get the minimum 192 kb/sec at which SDSL/SHDSL/SHDSL.bis will sync.

Is that 19km range with repeaters though?
said by coryw:

If there's something like an SAI that they're both connected to, it may even be more favorable for setting up a point to point connection.

I thought about that but at 3 miles away it seems unlikely.

Given this:
said by rural oregon:

[ my place ] -- 3.2mi -- [ friend's place ] -- 1.5 mi -- [ CO ]

If I had to guess, the OP's house is behind a (most likely fiber-fed) DLC while the friend's house probably is not. That would mean there are probably no copper pairs (I say "probably" because it's possible there could be some left over) even available from OP's house to the CO. Though if there's fiber there, it's hard to imagine why there isn't also a DSLAM there, but we don't know the distance from OP's house to the DLC (or if there even is one for sure).

OP, what do you know about the local infrastructure?
said by coryw:

Incidentally, what was the process you used to find out the pricing on a T1? I've been considering it, Level3 will sell you a T1 for just about $200/mo, but I haven't gone very far in that process.

I am guessing that doesn't include the local loop?
rural oregon
join:2014-04-21
Sheridan, OR

rural oregon

Member

There is no DLC (or any other visible component of the infrastructure) in the first 3 miles from my house. 3 miles away is also where they likely have a fiber link going to another town and further to the coast. Their DSLAM is likely in the CO, otherwise I wouldn't be beyond their cutoff range of 18,000 feet. Other than these observations, I don't know anything for a fact That's where it would be really nice to get a CL contact and obtain some information. By the way, I wonder, if one orders a T1 these days, do they still hook up a bunch of copper lines, or they actually use HDSL with repeaters ? And even a traditional T1 can't really reach that far without a repeater, what do they do there ?

TAZ
join:2014-01-03
Tucson, AZ

TAZ

Member

said by rural oregon:

Other than these observations, I don't know anything for a fact That's where it would be really nice to get a CL contact and obtain some information.

I know what you mean. Have fun, CL will give you no information.

Something else you could investigate is the cost to install a DSLAM at your cross box, but if fiber isn't available there the cost will very easily go into 6 figures. Who knows though, maybe you'd get lucky, fiber's there but not enough customers to install it at $X/mo. each. Email talktous@centurylink.com and ask if there's any estimate available (when they review cross boxes for upgrades, they come up with an estimate on upgrade cost and that is saved in their database if they don't go forward with it).
said by rural oregon:

By the way, I wonder, if one orders a T1 these days, do they still hook up a bunch of copper lines, or they actually use HDSL with repeaters ? And even a traditional T1 can't really reach that far without a repeater, what do they do there ?

It's DSL. They can still use repeaters.
rural oregon
join:2014-04-21
Sheridan, OR

1 edit

rural oregon

Member

said by TAZ:

It's DSL. They can still use repeaters.

Aha... so weird they wouldn't do it for ADSL customers.

Here is a visual aid for my scenario :
A - my place
B - friend's
C - CO



TAZ
join:2014-01-03
Tucson, AZ

1 edit

TAZ

Member

said by rural oregon:

Aha... so weird they wouldn't do it for ADSL customers.

It's a cost issue. It's cheaper to deploy remote DSLAMs but for low-density areas like this, even that doesn't get done.

I'll check a few things (there are a few spreadsheets with RT locations, and I will also see if I can find anything on gmaps) and post back. (edit: didn't find anything interesting)
rural oregon
join:2014-04-21
Sheridan, OR

rural oregon

Member

said by TAZ:

It's a cost issue. It's cheaper to deploy remote DSLAMs but for low-density areas like this, even that doesn't get done.

Well, I understand DSL repeaters aren't free. I would gladly pay more for repeated ADSL service than having no service at all, or trading my kidney for a T1.

TAZ
join:2014-01-03
Tucson, AZ

TAZ

Member

Yeah but for them, you have no option anyway so they'd rather sell you the $400/mo. T1.

(not saying it's right, it isn't, just saying that's what it is)