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peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned) to graniterock

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Re: Sammy Yatim's killer back at work

Second him to the use of force trainer for the RCMP in BC at airports to apprise them of the use of a gun when confronted with a stapler.
Expand your moderator at work
jaberi
join:2010-08-13

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Re: Sammy Yatim Murderer back at work

Toronto cop James Forcillo to go on trial for second-degree murder in streetcar shooting of Sammy Yatim

Const. James Forcillo is expected to go to trial next year in the death of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim.

»news.nationalpost.com/20 ··· y-yatim/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

i gather the other 8 or nine cops present on the scene will have their testimony together and recant in unison just how it all happened and why they stood by watching Forcillo empty 9 bullets into the victims body.
jaberi

jaberi to TLS2000

Member

to TLS2000
said by TLS2000:

As DKS points out, he hasn't been convicted of murder, so at this point you're spreading libel.

Secondly, why shouldn't he be working a desk job right now? The city is still paying him, so they should absolutely put him to work. He's not allowed to carry a firearm or get involved in any use of force situations.

isn't the law in Canada that you cannot fire your weapon in self defnse?.

dirtyjeffer0
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

said by jaberi:

isn't the law in Canada that you cannot fire your weapon in self defnse?.

i'm not sure what that question has to do with anything, but in Canada, you are allowed to use "Reasonable Force" to defend yourself...it would be up the crown to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you used excessive force.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

Excessive force is 8 bullets into the corpse from a distance of 20-30 feet when there is no palpable threat.

Hell, all ANY cop had to do was to pull a cruiser in front of the streetcar doors to block Yatim's exit from the streetcar. Maybe he could have tried to exit via a window, but in doing so he'd have exposed himself to easy blows from multiple nightsticks (or some bullets to the head as that's called in the Toronto police manual).

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt to jaberi

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to jaberi
said by jaberi:

i gather the other 8 or nine cops present on the scene will have their testimony together and recant in unison just how it all happened and why they stood by watching Forcillo empty 9 bullets into the victims body.

Won't be that easy to weasel out of this one, as there is multiple video angles as well as audio of the incident. Most telling will be the TTC streetcar footage, which hasn't been shown publicly.

dirtyjeffer0
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to MaynardKrebs

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to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

Excessive force is 8 bullets into the corpse from a distance of 20-30 feet when there is no palpable threat.

8 bullets into a corpse isn't murder.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by dirtyjeffer0:

said by MaynardKrebs:

Excessive force is 8 bullets into the corpse from a distance of 20-30 feet when there is no palpable threat.

8 bullets into a corpse isn't murder.

Yeah, you're right.
It's just good clean Toronto cop fun.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by dirtyjeffer0:

said by MaynardKrebs:

Excessive force is 8 bullets into the corpse from a distance of 20-30 feet when there is no palpable threat.

8 bullets into a corpse isn't murder.

Yeah, you're right.
It's just good clean Toronto cop fun.

i never said that...i just said it wasn't murder.

Mark
I stand with my feet
join:2009-07-11
Canada

Mark to dirtyjeffer0

Member

to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:

8 bullets into a corpse isn't murder.

I'm guessing the last 8 are a whole lot less prejudicial than the first.

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger to elwoodblues

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to elwoodblues

Re: Sammy Yatim's killer back at work

And so Sammy was just a nice boy quietly riding the bus minding his own business?

Blake
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

said by Link Logger:

And so Sammy was just a nice boy quietly riding the bus minding his own business?

That's not the issue, but rather what was the threat existing at the time, and how could it best be neutralized for the safety of all parties?

IIRC at the end he was alone on the bus, which was surrounded by police, there was no need to immediately force the issue.

I'm a big supporter of the police generally, but this officer's actions were very disproportionate and not reasonably necessary.

RedMageX
join:2011-10-06
Hamilton, ON

RedMageX to Link Logger

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No, but if you go back and watch the video, watch most of the other cops just chilling out there while this one guy is pointing his gun at the kid (and while firing) like they weren't at all concerned about their safety.

I'm sure that a LOT of Police Procedures were broken in this incident, especially when you see the Sergeant run up to the scene 20 seconds later with a Taser and promptly tase a kid who's been shot NINE times. From what I heard also, the cop basically tells the kid (paraphrased) "take one step forward and you're done"

This cop needs to be in jail, plain and simple

Link Logger
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join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger to elwoodblues

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Oh so he was a threat and armed with a knife? Did he comply with police orders? Did he force the issue himself by moving towards the door and hence officer?

When I ride the train/bus strangely enough I don't get shot, so saying Sammy's actions that night shouldn't be considered in this case is simply goofy. Maybe the cop shouldn't have shot him, maybe he was right to shoot him, but until this plays out in court the guy is innocent. Everyone else on the bus feared for their life, so Sammy is hardly an innocent bystander in this. If he had sat there quietly and kept his knife and pecker in his pants, he would still be alive today.

The officer did call for a Taser, but there wasn't one on scene and it didn't arrive till after Sammy was shot, so the 'just use a taser argument' might not be valid. When a cop tells you to do something compliance isn't optional and escalations are never going to end well, so just comply and you will be alive to sort it out in court if you think you were being asked to comply with something you disagreed with. Don't comply then you spin the wheel and take your chances.

»news.nationalpost.com/20 ··· y-yatim/

Blake
Link Logger

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said by RedMageX:

No, but if you go back and watch the video, watch most of the other cops just chilling out there while this one guy is pointing his gun at the kid (and while firing) like they weren't at all concerned about their safety.

How many people do you think you can get in the doorway of streetcar? So all those other cops were chilling because that is what they should have done given there were already officers dealing directly with Sammy.

Blake

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to Link Logger

Premium Member

to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

The officer did call for a Taser, but there wasn't one on scene and it didn't arrive till after Sammy was shot, so the 'just use a taser argument' might not be valid. When a cop tells you to do something compliance isn't optional and escalations are never going to end well, so just comply and you will be alive to sort it out in court if you think you were being asked to comply with something you disagreed with. Don't comply then you spin the wheel and take your chances.

That would sort of make sense, if not for the fact that only one officer freaked out enough to start shooting, versus the others who were standing around and looked like they were attempting to contain rather than escalate the situation. And escalate he did, from the shouting to the shooting to everything. If the other officers weren't freaking out the reasonable assumption on the part of someone not there is to believe that they did not fear for their own lives or the lives of others and believed that they could contain the situation long enough to wait for an officer with a taser to arrive, versus having to shoot.

Hence, the murder charge. And it really doesn't matter whether he is acquitted or found guilty, the very fact that the SIU found grounds for laying charges that the Crown is proceeding with calls into question the judgement of the officer and pretty much ended his career the moment the court papers were filed.

RedMageX
join:2011-10-06
Hamilton, ON

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In most cases like this, the Sergeant should have already been dispatched at the same time as the call, not afterwards. Did you CLOSELY watch the videos? The kid at one point even puts his hands up in a show of surrender, and holds the knife out (to clearly make it visable). People have analyzed the videos to death, and this kid was NOT an immediate threat to anyone. There have been cases similar to this which were de-escalated properly and the suspect was taken down and weapon removed from without even the use of a taser.
said by Link Logger:

How many people do you think you can get in the doorway of streetcar? So all those other cops were chilling because that is what they should have done given there were already officers dealing directly with Sammy.

Nobody was in ANY rush to take this kid down with non-lethal force, but I'm talking about the cops just standing there like they are just hanging out at the coffee shop while the shots are going off like it's no big deal. Please, go back and watch the female cop who's almost standing directly in front of the streetcar's door and watch her closely. If Sammy was a threat, I'm sure she'd have her gun out, not holstered and secured.

Link Logger
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Calgary, AB

Link Logger to Gone

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The principle question will be did Sammy move towards the officer after being told to stay where he was (ie did Sammy's actions force the issue). If he was moving forward with the knife in a threating position, the cop will be acquitted.

Blake

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

said by Link Logger:

The principle question will be did Sammy move towards the officer after being told to stay where he was (ie did Sammy's actions force the issue). If he was moving forward with the knife in a threating position, the cop will be acquitted.

The SIU had access to videos we have yet to see, and I would argue that if that was the case without any further mitigating circumstances charges would never have been laid in the first place.

Even if he is acquitted, his career as a cop is over.
Gone

Gone to RedMageX

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to RedMageX
said by RedMageX:

If Sammy was a threat, I'm sure she'd have her gun out, not holstered and secured.

A reasonable assessment. If that officer believed her life to be in danger it is reasonable she would have used means to protect herself.

RedMageX
join:2011-10-06
Hamilton, ON

RedMageX to Link Logger

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said by Link Logger:

The principle question will be did Sammy move towards the officer after being told to stay where he was (ie did Sammy's actions force the issue). If he was moving forward with the knife in a threating position, the cop will be acquitted.

And how would you say is a better position to disarm this kid? Inside the bus? There was no reason for the cop to threaten/dare the kid like he did, and I'm pretty sure their training says for them to DE-ESCALATE the issue, not be a loose cannon and shoot up the suspect without an imminent threat.

The other questions that remain beyond the initial shooting, is WHY IN THE HELL does he fire SIX extra shots (a full 20 seconds after the first 3) when the kid is already down, and why did they feel the need to Tase him with 9 bullets in him? It was overkill, to the extreme. What justification will the cop give us as to why six extra shots were fired with Sammy layed out on the floor?

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

said by RedMageX:

The other questions that remain beyond the initial shooting, is WHY IN THE HELL does he fire SIX extra shots (a full 20 seconds after the first 3) when the kid is already down, and why did they feel the need to Tase him with 9 bullets in him? It was overkill, to the extreme. What justification will the cop give us as to why six extra shots were fired with Sammy layed out on the floor?

If he was on the ground and not moving, those six extra shots a full 20 seconds after the first three is the difference between defending yourself and murder.

And as I said, there is video of the incident that we have yet to see.

Link Logger
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Calgary, AB

Link Logger to RedMageX

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said by RedMageX:

In most cases like this, the Sergeant should have already been dispatched at the same time as the call, not afterwards.

You say this like there are 50 Sergeants on duty at all times and one on every block, do you know if the Sergeant was on another call, do you know how far he had to go to get on scene? You guys think the whole world happened in 2 minutes? Watch the video even after he was shot they were still telling him to drop the knife.

Sure there are situations like this which are de-escalated properly and there are situations like this where cops are injured or killed and so every situation is treated as unique and the courts will decide how this one plays out.

Blake
Link Logger

Link Logger to Gone

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said by Gone:

The SIU had access to videos we have yet to see, and I would argue that if that was the case without any further mitigating circumstances charges would never have been laid in the first place.

Forcillo is the seventh on-duty Toronto police officer to be charged with manslaughter or murder by the SIU since 1990, the Toronto Star reports. None have been convicted, so I'm not sure this is a matter of solid evidence against him, or a matter of public concern, but again that is not the concern of the court, as its only interested in if he is guilty or not.

Blake
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RedMageX
join:2011-10-06
Hamilton, ON

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Re: Sammy Yatim's killer back at work

said by Link Logger:

Forcillo is the seventh on-duty Toronto police officer to be charged with manslaughter or murder by the SIU since 1990, the Toronto Star reports. None have been convicted

None of them had this much video proof agains them.

Even from the distance of the video that went viral, things are VERY clear as to how this was mishandled, and I'm pretty sure there will be Riots in the streets if this guy gets let off with anything less than a murder charge.
PX Eliezer1
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Zubrowka USA

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said by Link Logger:

Forcillo is the seventh on-duty Toronto police officer to be charged with manslaughter or murder by the SIU since 1990, the Toronto Star reports. None have been convicted, so I'm not sure this is a matter of solid evidence against him, or a matter of public concern, but again that is not the concern of the court, as its only interested in if he is guilty or not.

As are we all.

-----

If there is not a conviction in THIS case (unless his defense team has contravening evidence) then that would indicate that no police officer can ever be convicted of anything.

FiReSTaRT
Premium Member
join:2010-02-26
Canada

1 recommendation

FiReSTaRT

Premium Member

While I am not saying he's innocent, there are a couple of things to think about...

1) No matter how many times I watched the video, I couldn't tell for sure what happened even though it looked like the subject lunged at Forcillo before he opened fire

2) Those of you who think one shot is enough to put down a man doesn't know jack about terminal ballistics. I know another cop (from abroad) who was involved with a violent offender who kept kept attacking the cops until they put 9rds into him, at which point he sat down but was still alive for another 2.5hrs.

3) Most of our cops couldn't shoot their way outta the paper bag. They shoot barely enough to qualify, but their training budget is woefully inadequate. While there are SOME cops that are decent marksmen (some are actually QUITE good), those are firearm enthusiasts and more of an exception than a rule.

4) Under time pressure, tunnel vision kicks in and counting your shots becomes difficult unless you train for it and that's without throwing the extra stress of a life and death situation into the mix. Why do you think the triggers on duty firearms are so stiff in the first place?

Those are just some things that will have to be considered at the trial.

dirtyjeffer0
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

said by FiReSTaRT:
3) Most of our cops couldn't shoot their way outta the paper bag. They shoot barely enough to qualify, but their training budget is woefully inadequate. While there are SOME cops that are decent marksmen (some are actually QUITE good), those are firearm enthusiasts and more of an exception than a rule.
this is something i have posted before too, and something most people don't realize...the funding for more regular practice simply isn't there.
quote:
Why do you think the triggers on duty firearms are so stiff in the first place?
well, they also don't have "safety switches".