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dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

Firefox dishonesty

Firefox has a button labeled "check for updates". You might imagine that if you clicked it, it would check for updates. And then, you know, tell you there's an update and give you the option to install it. Or not.

What it actually does is to download the update and start installing it.

Why is there no procedure to actually see if there is an update? Why is the button misleadingly labelled? Even Windows Update doesn't act in such an annoying manner.

I'm aware of the option that says 'let me decide', but it does not seem to work as advertised. In fact, I selected 'never check', meaning I wil manually check when I feel like it -- but there is no manual check, or rather the thing that is labelled as if it were a manual check is actually an install.

Of course, now I'm forcibly updated, I cannot verify that...


BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3

Firefox doesn't keep supporting their older versions, you either run the latest version, or there are no future updates for old versions. Firefox is not an os where they give people two years to update, and keep updating the older versions.

You can check manually in Help -> About Firefox, it's been there for years.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by BlitzenZeus:

You can check manually in Help -> About Firefox, it's been there for years.

Yeah, that's exactly what I did. And it went and installed the update without asking. That is not what I expect a button labeled "check for update" to do. And this isn't the first time I've run into this, either.

As for the rest: I do not expect updates for older versions, and I do not necessarily expect an update from a really old version to a current version. All I expect is that if I ask it to "check for updates", what is will do is to check for updates, period.

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3

I seem to recall it used to be two clicks, otherwise when it was brought up it might already be saying "update to XX.X" So you're right in this aspect now, I hadn't bothered switching to my other os to update flash, and firefox yet. I just grabbed a copy off the ftp since the main website wasn't updated yet, and the internal updater isn't usually ready until they update the website.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.



nwrickert
sand groper
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join:2004-09-04
Geneva, IL
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Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to dave

said by dave:

What it actually does is to download the update and start installing it.

I will have to test that sometime.

If you have installed the firefox maintenance service, I would expect it to behave as you described. I don't install that. And I run as a limited user. So I think it cannot update unless I give an Admin password. But if maintenance service is installed, perhaps that runs as administrator and can install without needing Admin password.
--
AT&T Uverse; Buffalo WHR-300HP router (behind the 2wire gateway); openSuSE 13.1; KDE 4.11.5; firefox 28.0


nwrickert
sand groper
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Okay, I tested that on Vista, firefox 28.

Limited user account. Firefox maintenance service is not installed.

I use Help --> Check for updates. It told me that an update was available. It did not download.
--
AT&T Uverse; Buffalo WHR-300HP router (behind the 2wire gateway); openSuSE 13.1; KDE 4.11.5; firefox 28.0


BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3

So it seems to be checking if it needs to elevate to install. On my linux install of Firefox using a build from mozilla.org, not builds provided by repositories, it did just install the update after clicking check for updates. Since those repository builds are handled by other parties they are a little delayed from the Mozilla releases, and I like how I can just dump firefox anywhere in my home directory as a user install too. I have noticed the stub installers allow for user installs of Firefox on windows now too just like chrome, and the main installer wants to install the service so it can update Firefox without elevation. Needless to say I don't like having another program acting as a root service on my machine.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.



nwrickert
sand groper
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join:2004-09-04
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Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

said by BlitzenZeus:

So it seems to be checking if it needs to elevate to install.

Yes, probably.

I later tried the same thing as an Administrator. It downloaded and installed, including the UAC prompt. It also installed the maintenance service, which I promptly uninstalled.

I normally don't use firefox that way.

On linux, I stick to the repo build of firefox, and that probably won't update for a few days.

I remember back in the old days, before there was a maintenance service. At one time I checked, and it downloaded the new version but could not install because I was a limited user. And then every time I started firefox, it would try to install and fail. I eventually changed the account to an Administrator to let it install, then changed it back to a limited user.

Normally, I check for updates by looking for posts at dslreports. That's a safer way to check.
--
AT&T Uverse; Buffalo WHR-300HP router (behind the 2wire gateway); openSuSE 13.1; KDE 4.11.5; firefox 28.0


Grail Knight

Premium
join:2003-05-31
Valhalla
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Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
·Time Warner Cable

1 edit
reply to dave

What version of Fx did you have installed before checking for updates and did you install the Maintenance Service which is optional? The page also lists how to disable the service if you installed it on purpose or from clicking though.

»support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/wha···-service

--
"One Good Conspiracy Deserves Another."



therube

join:2004-11-11
Randallstown, MD
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL
reply to dave

It's not "dishonest", its just messed up logic.
Let's call it illogical.

Actually yesterday, or the day before, I read just that & I was like huh :rolleyes:.

Now (without being 100% certain) from what I recall, once an update has started (downloading) even if you subsequently disable updates, the, what had been in progress, but "stopped" download, will actually complete & once done will update you on the next browser restart. That is kind of understandable, but even that is flawed IMO.

And to go further, I feel that when updates are disabled, it should be some sort of global switch, such that opening a different or new Profile (where updating is enabled, or would be by default in a new Profile) doesn't override updating status from a prior Profile.



darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
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Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS
reply to dave

See also: »[FireFox] Other ways to "check for updates"

This is nothing new...
--
♬ Dragon of good fortune struggles with the trickster Fox ♬



therube

join:2004-11-11
Randallstown, MD
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL

1 recommendation

reply to therube

- Verified that FF "update" directory was empty, & it was
- "Disabled" updating in FF (Tools | Options | Advanced -> Update => Never)
- Help | About FF
- FF 28
- Check for updates

Oops, what's that you say?
I hesitated for a moment & it says, "Restart to Update".

Win7 x64.
Pretty sure I'm not running as a Limited user.
FF is not "installed", only extracted & running.
FF is not installed into any "system" directory tree, rather where I want it to be.
No FF "maintenance service" nor UAC prompting on this end.

Yes, illogical (regardless of what's written just above) IMHO ;-).

Directory of E:\Users\RUBEN\AppData\Local\Mozilla\Firefox\firefox\updates\0
 
04/28/2014  11:17 PM        19,566,470 update.mar
04/28/2014  11:17 PM                16 update.status
04/28/2014  11:17 PM                 5 update.version
03/15/2014  04:40 AM           276,592 updater.exe
03/15/2014  04:24 AM             1,245 updater.ini
 

(I'll try to make note of what SeaMonkey does under similar circumstances.)


therube

join:2004-11-11
Randallstown, MD
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL

1 recommendation

reply to therube

quote:
Actually yesterday, or the day before, I read just that & I was like huh :rolleyes:.
It was here that I read it:

said by "RobertJ" :
Firefox Update Confusion

...

It is important to be clear that these choices only apply to the Firefox automatic checks which are done every 12 hours (not 100% sure of this interval)

If you “check” for updates using Firefox > About Firefox and an update is available, it will be downloaded and the next time you launch Firefox it will be applied. The selection made from the three listed above has no effect on this "manual check".

»forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic···=2701271

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Grail Knight

Was at version 28, but this was the 'Nth' time I'd seen the effect.

I did not knowingly have the maintenance service installed, but if it came by default at some version, I could have missed it. Will check tonight - that was a home machine. Thanks.


Bobby_Peru
Premium
join:2003-06-16

4 edits

1 recommendation

reply to dave

Re: MoFo Disrespect ---> Pale Moon

said by dave:

said by BlitzenZeus:

You can check manually in Help -> About Firefox, it's been there for years.

Yeah, that's exactly what I did. And it went and installed the update without asking. That is not what I expect a button labeled "check for update" to do. And this isn't the first time I've run into this, either.

As for the rest: I do not expect updates for older versions, and I do not necessarily expect an update from a really old version to a current version. All I expect is that if I ask it to "check for updates", what is will do is to check for updates, period.

Hi Dave. Welcome to the newer MoFo! Who cares what _you_ (the user) expected, did not expect, wanted, needed, asked for, or... didn't ask for...!

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkcIBvJU8Uk
While there are other applications that also behave in this disrespectful, and potentially time/effort/aggravation/money costly manner, MoFo's disrespect can now, thankfully, be relegated to the past: Pale Moon »www.palemoon.org/ . Check it out, maybe even try it, Dave. You, too, may (mostly) never look back....


Grail Knight

Premium
join:2003-05-31
Valhalla
kudos:6
reply to dave

Re: Firefox dishonesty

You are welcome.



StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to dave

said by dave:

I did not knowingly have the maintenance service installed, but if it came by default at some version, I could have missed it.

I don't think I have the service installed either. Double checking right now.

Look at

maintenanceservice_installer.exe
maintenanceservice.exe

in your

Mozilla Firefox folder.

What is the Mozilla Maintenance Service?
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!

Bobby_Peru
Premium
join:2003-06-16
reply to dave

R-E-S-P-E-C-T: It's Not So Hard.

Click for full size
Pale Moon - Check For Updates
Click for full size
Apply Updates?


Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
Premium
join:2009-06-15
START Today!
kudos:7

1 recommendation

reply to dave

Re: Firefox dishonesty

said by dave:

Firefox has a button labeled "check for updates". You might imagine that if you clicked it, it would check for updates. And then, you know, tell you there's an update and give you the option to install it. Or not.

What it actually does is to download the update and start installing it....

 
OY !

Holy Drive-by, Batman !
--

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(1) That things may never get back to normal
(2) That they already HAVE !
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dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
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Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to StuartMW

Click for full size
I found another Firefox 28 system to play with.

For options, I had "check for updates but let me choose" checked.
I did not have "use background service" checked.
The maintenance service was installed with "manual" start.
I changed it to "disabled".

The Help-About dialogue showed "Check for updates" on the button.
I clicked it, it immediately started downloading the update.
After downloading, the button changed to "Restart to install" with no visible way to tell it not to install anything.


StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
Premium
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Galt's Gulch
kudos:2

said by dave:

After downloading, the button changed to "Restart to install" with no visible way to tell it not to install anything.

Sounds like a bug or just Mozilla telling you that "you can have any version of Firefox you want as long as it's the latest".

I update manually--that is do a "check for updates" when I know one is available.

I've disabled auto-updates for all software I use. I also uninstall any services they've installed. Sometimes I forget to check after updating something. Some programs have a nasty habit of re-installing stuff I've disabled.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


therube

join:2004-11-11
Randallstown, MD
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL
reply to dave

> Sounds like a bug

Not a bug, but a feature.
Asinine IMO.

But then maybe there is a bug?
Perhaps behavior will change beginning with FF29?
(I'm not actually clear on the meaning of the bug, but...)
Bug 950357 - The About dialog automatically checks for updates (and then asks the user if he wants to update) even when the "Never check for updates" option is selected.

(At one point they wanted to do away with Help | About altogether. Cause a bit of a stir .)


dave
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join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
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Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by bug chitchat :
I don't think there's any harm in checking for updates if you open the About dialog, because we then let the user make a conscious decision whether or not he wants to install the update by displaying the button "Update to 30.0".

So it looks like in 29.0 it checks when you open the help->about dialogue, and then you get the opportunity to install it by pressing the button.

If the same behavior existed in 28.0 and before, then the bug was simply 'mislabeled button'. Which doesn't speak too highly of the QA organization, since it violates the principle of least astonishment in a big way.


Davesnothere
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I still use FF14.0.1 and have it set not to auto-check at all, and the About box does nothing unless I ask from within it.

Are you saying that recent FF checks for updates if you simply look at the 'About' box ?

Yes, that's poor logic - even stupid and/or dishonest, like the OP suggested.

Will it still let you close the box and not follow thru ?



plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:3
reply to StuartMW

I manually update as well. And by manually, I actually manually check the specific webpage to see if an update is available. In the thread that darcilicious See Profile references, I explain in more detail about my manual update process.

Like you, I disable all automatic update items for the software that I use. I also have to go back when I do manually update something to make sure that the software did not add some kind of new automatic update process, or if the automatic update process that I had disabled is now enabled again.

Its a bit more work that's for sure, but at least I know when updates will be installed, and I don't get a surprise if I suddenly have a new version of something.

I would rather look myself at the actual webpage, or read about an update on here then for the software to check for, and automatically download updates.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail

Expand your moderator at work


Davesnothere
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1 edit
reply to plencnerb

Re: Firefox dishonesty

said by plencnerb:

I manually update as well.

And by manually, I actually manually check the specific webpage to see if an update is available. In the thread that darcilicious See Profile references, I explain in more detail about my manual update process.

Like you, I disable all automatic update items for the software that I use.

I also have to go back when I do manually update something to make sure that the software did not add some kind of new automatic update process, or if the automatic update process that I had disabled is now enabled again....

 
Generally, I get the new offline installer for FF and overwrite my current install, and ONLY AFTER backing up my FF profile folder.

And JAVA can be an ornery one to tame.

I have had limited success with the normally prescribed methods of asking tasks politely not to start, so....

To stop it looking for updates, what I usually do is go to Program Files > Common Files > Java > Java Updates , and rename all of the executables in there, and similarly also I rename jqs.exe in the Program Files > Java > JRE7 > Bin folder, so that it will not load part of JAVA when Windows starts up, and will be civilized until I actually reach a web page which NEEDS Java.

--

We have only 2 things about which to worry :
(1) That things may never get back to normal
(2) That they already HAVE !
-
START Forum »Start Communications


Phoenix22
Death From Above
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SOG C&C Nrth
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·Comcast Formerl..
reply to dave

said by dave:

Firefox has a button labeled "check for updates". You might imagine that if you clicked it, it would check for updates. And then, you know, tell you there's an update and give you the option to install it. Or not.

What it actually does is to download the update and start installing it.

Why is there no procedure to actually see if there is an update? Why is the button misleadingly labelled? Even Windows Update doesn't act in such an annoying manner.

I'm aware of the option that says 'let me decide', but it does not seem to work as advertised. In fact, I selected 'never check', meaning I wil manually check when I feel like it -- but there is no manual check, or rather the thing that is labelled as if it were a manual check is actually an install.

Of course, now I'm forcibly updated, I cannot verify that...

or......you could install this......»addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunder···?src=api
--
101ST ABN Div. (AirAssault) "Rendezvous With Destiny!" "Night Stalkers/Phoenix Flight" For Buddy & Terry, who lived it! Whiskey for my men and beer for my horses! H.A.L.O!, 5th Grp., MACV SOG, 160TH AVN SOG, Death From Above, VFW, AmLegion


therube

join:2004-11-11
Randallstown, MD
Reviews:
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2 recommendations

reply to dave

Click for full size
As a comparison, SeaMonkey's dialog.

I have updates disabled.
Shows that an update is available, shows what version, but does nothing - unless I choose.


Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
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START Today!
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said by therube:

As a comparison, SeaMonkey's dialog...

 
MUCH more civilized, considerate, clear, and honest !