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cpadam

@71.0.106.x

[DSL] Very slow DSL after installing new telephone line

Just bought a new house; but sadly there are no phone jacks in the finished basement which is where I wanted to put my DSL modem and linksys router. So I bought a spool of three-pair CAT3 wire from home depot and ran a line direct to the network interface box. Total run length is about 60 feet. I have one end wired directly into the screw terminals at the interface box; the other end has an RJ-11 male connector that I crimped myself. The RJ-11 plugs directly into the modem. I get a connection to the internet, but I'm only getting about 0.8 Mbps compared to the 3.0 Mbps I get when I plug directly into the interface box with a 6-foot (factory) patch cable.

To test my ability to make crimp connections, I made my own 6-foot patch cable using the leftover CAT3 and two more RJ-11's, and surprisingly I get about a 0.5 Mbps LOSS just by using my own patch cable vs. the cheap flat cable that I had on-hand. Could it be that my crimp connections on the CAT3 are just really sloppy, or is there some trick I'm missing here? I ran CAT5 all through my last house and never had any issues with bad connections, so I thought I'd be good to go for this job.

The spool of CAT3 I bought doesn't have the gauge listed, all it says is "made in China". Could I have gotten bad wire? Any suggestions are appreciated.


sashwa
Premium,Mod
join:2001-01-29
Alcatraz
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Let's get you moved over to our Home Improvement forum for some help with this.


alphapointe
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reply to cpadam
If the wire is solid, the crimp-on plugs aren't made for it, and are likely not making a good connection. Attach a jack to the newly-run wire, and plug the modem into it with a stranded (factory) cord.
--
"When the hammer drops, the bullshit stops"

Mr Matt

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reply to cpadam
said by cpadam :

I get a connection to the internet, but I'm only getting about 0.8 Mbps compared to the 3.0 Mbps I get when I plug directly into the interface box with a 6-foot (factory) patch cable.

Is the network interface in the basement or outside? Did you install DSL filters on every phone and the burglar alarm panel, if you have one. I agree with alphapointe to terminate the wire in the basement in an RJ-11 jack and use the cord that came with the modem to connect it to the jack.


cpadam

@71.0.106.x
Interface box is outside but in good condition (no water, spider webs, or mouse nests). I disconnected the rest of the phone system so that my modem was the only device connected to the interface box (still no improvement in transfer speed). Will try terminating with a female jack instead of a male plug and report back. Thanks Matt and alphapointe for quick feedback.

pb2k

join:2005-05-30
Calgary, AB
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to cpadam
In the land of DSL, distance is the biggest factor (even 60ft). Always put the modem as close to the demark as possible, with a POTS splitter and run cat5e to the computers.

Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
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reply to cpadam
said by cpadam :

(still no improvement in transfer speed)

1) Is 3 Mbps the speed are you subscribing to?
2) Do you have a split pair?
Wiring convention is:
L1 = Blue - Blue+White,
L2 = Orange - Orange+White,
L3 = Green - Green+White.
3) Is there any noise on the line when a phone is connected through a DSL Filter and you dial your local exchange and then listen?
4) Each time you disconnect and reconnect the modem the modem retrains. There are times when the modem cannot train to the 10 Mbps I am subscribing to.


cpadam

@71.0.106.x
1) Yes, I'm subscribed for 3 Mbps, and I get exactly 3 Mbps when I plug the modem directly into the interface box via factory patch cable.

2) Not sure what you mean by split pair; the colors of the strands in my CAT3 wire are black, white, green, red, yellow, blue. I'm using only the red and green wires though.

3) I plugged a phone into the line and didn't hear any noticeable noise.

4) The modem (Zyxel 660R) gets the full 3.0 Mbps as soon as it boots up and gets the DSL signal. This is of course only when plugging into the interface box with a factory patch cable though.

mj3431

join:2003-04-21
STL, MO
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In the DSL and Uverse forums they always recommend running Cat5 or better from the NID to modems for best performance. I'd suspect that your home run is picking up noise from electric or nearby appliances. I never had any issues with Cat6 home runs in my homes like you report.


tschmidt
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reply to cpadam
You can test the homemade cable to plugging it into a phone to see if it works. Male plugs can be difficult to terminate, and need to use the proper type for solid or stranded conductor. A better method to to terminate the cable at a female jack and use a patch cord to connect the modem.

Since DSL works fine connected to the NID something is wrong with inside wiring/equipment.

Are you sure there is a filter at each non-DSL device? Each voice device needs to be behind a filter to prevent the phone from interfering with DSL. The alternative to in-line filters is to use a whole-house POTS/DSL splitter near to NID to create separate data and voice connections.

Phones, answering machine, Settop box, fax, dialup modem, home alarm, etc all need to be behind a filter.

Split-pair
Phone and data wiring is twisted together in pairs to reduce noise sensitivity. A split-pair is where you connect wire from one pair and wire from another pair, rather then the two wires twisted together. Grn/red is the old style color code, same as white/blue + blue from Mr Matt See Profile post.

/tom


enon

@209.197.20.x
reply to mj3431
said by mj3431:

In the DSL and Uverse forums they always recommend running Cat5 or better from the NID to modems for best performance.

The run and terminations from the can to the NID is not up to cat5e standard. It's almost always a waste of money using cat5e for the indoor wiring portion when this is the case.

OP, are you sure you're using cat3? That's not the typical color scheme, it sounds like instead you have bulk telephone cord. The wires should be twisted together in pairs, otherwise you're going to get poor performance.


tigerpaw509

join:2011-01-19
reply to cpadam
What you need is a whole house filter inside the nid.The filter is connected to the outside feed,the filter has two connection points,1 for you modem feed(unfiltered) and the other connection for all the other inside equipment(this side is filtered).What you are getting is massive bridge tap.Also if you do install a whole house filter be sure to remove the inside filters.


cpadam

@71.0.106.x
reply to tschmidt
@tschmidt: The homemade cable technically *works* in the sense that it's useable for phone and DSL, it just results in very poor performance for the DSL. Also, just to clarify, I don't have ANY other devices using the phone system at the moment. In my frustration of trying to solve this issue, I disconnected all lines from the interface box except for the one going straight to my modem. So, no effects from poor filters or the like.

By the way, here's a link to the wire I bought. Sorry if it comes out ugly, I don't know how to properly insert links into a message. I post this because it doesn't look like other CAT3 that I see advertised and I think I may have gotten the wrong wire:

»www.homedepot.com/p/CE-TECH-100- ··· c1vZc5a2

Mr Matt

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said by cpadam :

I post this because it doesn't look like other CAT3 that I see advertised and I think I may have gotten the wrong wire

What you purchased is probably six conductor telephone wire not CAT3. An easy way to check is to remove the outer jacket from a section of the remaining wire back about 12 to 18 inches. Observe the red - green, yellow - black and blue - white and see if for example the red - green are twisted together with a long length twist. If they are not twisted that might be causing a problem. The color code for the wire you purchased was used to connect up to, two lines and the blue - white pair used to carry power to power a telephone dial light in early Princess and Trimline Telephones.

Try this: disconnect the wire you installed and unplug all telephones in the house. Plug the Modem into one of the existing telephone outlet. See what download speed the modem achieves. If the modem reaches 3 Mbps the wiring in the house is OK. Then connect the wire you added to the NID and then observe the results. If the speed drops then the problem is with the new wire.

On the other hand see if there is an additional wire spliced to the pair feeding the outlets in your home. Normally when a burglar alarm is installed the alarm company runs two pair wire from the NID to an RJ-31X jack to connect the alarm panel. The way my alarm panel was wired, a Blue - Blue+White pair was connected directly to the NID terminals and ran to the RJ-31X along with an Orange - Orange White pair in the same jacket. The Blue - Blue+White pair connected to the outlets in the house was connected to the Orange - Orange+White pair from the RJ-31X with Scotch Lock Connectors. The RJ-31X is wired to the alarm panel so when the panel attempts to send an alarm a relay in the panel disconnects the jacks in the house.


nunya
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reply to cpadam
OK OP:
The wire you bought is FINE!
There is no need for cat5, it's OVERKILL!
60' is a drop in the bucket.
Your telephone circuit probably runs MILES over a mixture of CAT rated and non-rated OSP.
We've already determined you have good signal at the NID and crap signal inside.
Rather than using a chintzy crimp, just install a regular jack inside. Well worth the extra $1 (or whatever retail price is) that it's going to cost.
Use a short STORE BOUGHT cord from the jack to the DSL modem.
You DO NOT need a filter if this is the only connected line and you have no telephone equipment / service.
You only need to utilize ONE pair for standard DSL. You can use the R/G or Bl/Bl-W.
My guess is you an "open" connection somewhere. DSL WILL occasionally work over 1 wire, however it will work like crap.

Trust me, I've done this a few thousand times.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


enon

@209.197.20.x
You clearly have more experience doing this so I'll defer to you, but.. while I agree 100% there's no need for CAT5e, don't you think the OP should be using a twisted pair? The spool linked he linked to seems to be just plain 6-conductor wire. Most of the proper data-grade (not necessarily CAT3/CAT5) wire sold at Lowe's Depot is described "3 pair" or "4 pair" rather than "6 conductor", which seems to imply it's not twisted. If he's working with a shitty signal to begin with and/or there's other factors in the home that contribute to interference or loss, using twisted vs straight could be the difference between a 1MB and 3MB connection.


OMGWTFBBQ

@162.201.140.x
60ft of straight telephone wire (or bell wire, or hell probably even coax) won't change 3mbit to 1mbit compared to TP..


datguy11

@100.2.74.x
said by OMGWTFBBQ :

60ft of straight telephone wire (or bell wire, or hell probably even coax) won't change 3mbit to 1mbit compared to TP..

Wanna bet? ive seen it myself, 25 foot straight modular cord wreck the dsl signal so badly it was like being on dialup


John Galt
Forward, March
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Happy Camp
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Is the OSP twisted pair?


datguy11

@100.2.74.x
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

OK OP:
The wire you bought is FINE!
There is no need for cat5, it's OVERKILL!
60' is a drop in the bucket.

Just clicked on that Home Depot link, says the wire is stranded in the tech details

DSL providers usually recommend not using long modular (stranded) cords for connection to the modem.. Maybe 60 feet of this stuff is whats doing the signal in, or maybe its open one side like you said....

mj3431

join:2003-04-21
STL, MO
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reply to nunya
I generally respect what you post but if indeed cat5 is "overkill" then why do u-verse techs now run cat5 from the NID as part of a new install? And why would a tech recommend it several years ago when I had DSL installed? Perhaps the cable that was bought is stranded and may run near a high load circuit. We really don't know but it clearly is an issue with that "new" non cat rated run.


nunya
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reply to cpadam
The wire shown is Cat3. I'll bet the "stranded" part is a mistake.

mj3431

join:2003-04-21
STL, MO
Reviews:
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The OP has listed experience with cabling prior to this issue and clearly noted an issue making his own patch with less than stellar results. My bet is on changing to solid cat5 even if it is overkill. Interested to see what the resolution is.

Edit: What is shown may not be the actual product...if stranded vs solid is a misprint so easily the picture could be wrong.


datguy11

@100.2.74.x

1 recommendation

reply to mj3431
Cat 5 has been over kill in the POTS (plain old telepone service) world ever since cat 5 was invented.

The reason being is that you have miles of CAT 3 AT BEST wiring from the telco to your home, so installing 50 feet of cat 5 wiring inside your house doesnt do much.

When cat 5 first became popular, IMO, CAT 5 was used as a money maker- for the private electrician. Ive seen this so many times, you would believe the CAT 5 was magical or close to GOLD. Electricians would razzle dazzle the customer on a rehab/renovation/rewiring job and make a small fortune by installing "CAT 5" wire.

Why run old "telephone" wire, when I can put in cat 5 and make 5 times as much for the same amount of work.. Ive had many a customer brag to me over and over how they have "cat 5 wiring" like a little kid with a sticker from the teacher. Yeah lady, but you have 85 year old cotton covered wiring from the telco coming into your apartment..... And they still wouldnt "get it"

And you know what?? 99% of the time the cat 5 was installed improperly, thereby reducing it back to cat 3!!!!

No offense to the "good" electricians, but for the most part they butchered the sh*t out the cat 5, splitting pairs, using to pairs twisted together for one half of a circuit, using non cat 5 jacks to terminate the wires and other shenanigans you would have to see it to believe it.

The only good thing about cat 5 wiring being installed by the inept and incompetent, is that no matter had bad it was screwed up, you could "unf*ck" the bad install up, it just took time (and could be tedious)

and thats my CAT 5 rant.

mj3431

join:2003-04-21
STL, MO
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1 edit
I get that cat5 is overkill but my point was the OP seems to have found that the issue he has is on his side if the NID, and with cheap stranded cable as a home run. A new cable run seems pretty cut and dry to me, especially if it isn't a hard run. Cat5 isn't pricey so why not just run it and forget it?

This can be debated forever but the only variables here are the cable and connectors. Who knows, maybe the OP will get lucky in a few years and the Telco will move to FTTH and put an ONT on the side of his house. Cat5 could be used for Ethernet then without pulling another new cable.


Msradell
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reply to cpadam
While Cat 5 or higher is technically a major overkill for installation like this it has a significant advantage as far as its ability to be resistant to interference. That's something that the telco side doesn't have to worry about as much. New homes have all kinds of sources of interference and better wiring helps reduce its influence on signals.
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eakes

join:2000-10-20
Richardson, TX
reply to cpadam
I have encountered discontinuous wires in multi-conductor cable, that is, a particular wire is not continuous from end to end.

My first step here would be to use a different 'pair'. One could also twist a 'pair' together at one end of the run and check for continuity of the pair at the other end.

As others have suggested I would use a telephone jack (with screw terminals) at the modem location with a normal telephone cable from jack to modem.


nunya
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reply to mj3431
We all carry Cat5 (or 6) on our trucks now for one simple reason: It's cheaper and takes less space. Why carry Cat3 and Cat5 when Cat5 does the same thing at the same price?
In the DSL world, there is ZERO value in replacing Cat3 with Cat5.

But, Cat3 is perfectly suitable for this installation. So, let's drop the Cat3 vs. Cat5 bullshit because it's just clouding and confusing the issue.
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alphapointe
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Agreed. I still maintain that this is a termination issue, and not an issue with the cable itself.

As for the "interference" claims, the telco's OSP runs for thousands of feet parallel with 13kv+ power with no ill effect, so interference from the home isn't going to bother it any. If it does, it's because something is loose/corroded, etc.
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NormanS
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reply to pb2k
said by pb2k:

In the land of DSL, distance is the biggest factor (even 60ft).

At 9,156 feet to the CO (my old residence), a 60 foot run just adds 0.65% to the distance. Though I would recommend not using the flat, satin cords between the wall jack and modem.
--
Norman
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