dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
Search similar:


uniqs
1107

TestBoy
Premium Member
join:2009-10-13
Irmo, SC

TestBoy

Premium Member

Loop length changed?

I have in my mind that when I upgraded to power last year my loop length measured at the jack inside the house was either 1900 or 2200 feet.

Had some issues with line 1 starting yesterday that went unexplained. Tech saw the history but it just stopped.

Anyhow... he gets here today, measures the loop length at 3300 feet?
It also shows in the AT&T database as 3300 feet?

Really?
I am really lost there.
Am I just getting senile and they let me have power @ 3300 feet?

The guy measured it 3 times there is no doubt.. I looked right at the screen and on his ipad. (with cracked screen.. they all have cracked screens :P)

Any explanation as to why I am on power @ 3300 feet when it was previously over 1000 feet shorter less than a year ago?
Paralel
join:2011-03-24
Michigan, US

1 recommendation

Paralel

Member

He most likely has it on either the wrong gauge setting or didn't apply the gauge conversion properly. This is why the entries in the database are screwed up so badly.

rolande
Certifiable
MVM,
join:2002-05-24
Dallas, TX
ARRIS BGW210-700
Cisco Meraki MR42

rolande

MVM,

The question is if they had the wrong gauge originally and now they are measuring right or the other way around. It is also possible that the physical properties of the line changed enough that the distance has appeared to increase. The measured distance is all relative to the properties of the medium.

The SELT handheld tester they use is basically a Time Domain Reflectometer or TDR. It puts a specific pulse signal at a specific power on the line and listens for any echo return where there is impedance discontinuity. The concept is similar to how radar works.
quote:
The resulting reflected pulse measured at the output/input to the TDR is displayed or plotted as a function of time and, because the speed of signal propagation is almost constant for a given transmission medium, can be read as a function of cable length.

Because of its sensitivity to impedance variations, a TDR may be used to verify cable impedance characteristics, splice and connector locations and associated losses, and estimate cable lengths.
Paralel
join:2011-03-24
Michigan, US

1 edit

Paralel

Member

In order for the TDR pulse to be affected so badly by a change in the properties of the line that it is suddenly registering an additional 1000 ft I'd expect the OP to have no service whatsoever. That would truly be an epic alteration in line quality.

Also, did he check the loop length for both lines? If they weren't even close to one another then that would be a good indication that one line has serious issues.

TestBoy
Premium Member
join:2009-10-13
Irmo, SC

TestBoy

Premium Member

He actually did look at both and they were about the same length.

I am back to having issues but now after a few days a pattern is emerging.
I start to have line errors going out of control on line 1 that gradually get worse
as the evening and night progress. It seems to peak about 8-9am and decreases rapidly as it gets warmer during the day. Starts to deteriorate when the sun goes down... so 8pm or so.

I have the techs number.. I will buzz him and see if he can get IR to take a look.
He does not need a repeat... when he was here it was 5pm and hot out and there was no indication of an issue... but that's how it has been the last few days on line 1 only.

I used to hate intermittent crap like that... but it started out of the blue.

tigerpaw509
join:2011-01-19

tigerpaw509 to TestBoy

Member

to TestBoy
You can have actually loop length or 26 gauge equivalent.Sounds like your Prem tech was showing you equivalent as displayed by broadband tools which can vary -/+ 600'.


TestBoy
Premium Member
join:2009-10-13
Irmo, SC

TestBoy

Premium Member

said by tigerpaw509:

You can have actually loop length or 26 gauge equivalent.Sounds like your Prem tech was showing you equivalent as displayed by broadband tools which can vary -/+ 600'.

He was using his TDR.
Same info was in whatever they show on their ipad.
I suspect it's entered wrong... just wondering what trouble that will cause me later.

That said... trying to get this line1 sorted out.
I had to do maintenance early this morning and was forced onto my hotspot because of retrains every 10 minutes.
Paralel
join:2011-03-24
Michigan, US

Paralel

Member

What you're describing is typical of a short between you and the VRAD on that line. Temp drops, linear dimensions of the wire change, it starts to pull away from where it is interfaced, creates a short. As temp increases, linear dimensions of the wire change again, wire relaxes and makes an acceptable connection again.

I/R should have no trouble finding it, but only when it is actually happening. It will be impossible when it is not happening.

TestBoy
Premium Member
join:2009-10-13
Irmo, SC

TestBoy

Premium Member

Click for full size
Yeah... been there in my day...
I don't want the tech that came out to have any blemishes over an intermittent issue that he really can't see until later at night/early morning.

This is what it looks like after the last retrain @ about 10am.
It's now 2pm and it has since settled down... but it's also 95 degrees out.

How can I get it resolved without giving the tech issues?
AT&T like other telcos does not seem to have much wiggle room and I care about these guys... I was one.
Paralel
join:2011-03-24
Michigan, US

Paralel

Member

I don't know how ATT works internally. Is there any way the prem. tech. can have I/R come look at the line while it is happening without it causing a problem for him?
kshusker
join:2009-10-12

kshusker to Paralel

Member

to Paralel
You can get AT&T to turn on some form of enhanced monitoring on your line. They did this for us when they were trying to diagnose an issue with our second pair after we upgraded to the Power tier.

I think you need to get this requested by someone higher up and I don't know the exact term for it, but it is something AT&T can do (for short periods of time, a week or two) and might help you.

tigerpaw509
join:2011-01-19

tigerpaw509

Member

Your performance is all ready available to the Prem tech and the I&R tech via BBT

my thoughts
@72.135.227.x

my thoughts to Paralel

Anon

to Paralel
Any truck roll that occurs within 30 days ... or call that results in a ticket created... is a repeat on the previous tech.

Generally to create an InR or CIM ticket requires a PT or WT in SE where OP is from to perform testing before ticket is created.Depending on time of day and how listed the outside tech should respond within 4 hours or next day if placed
late enough but does not guarantee a response during window of problem.

Similar to issue when rains by time someone dispatched the line can be dry.

Unless willing to wait 30 plus days between calls no way to avoid the repeat.
When I was first hired repeats were 10 days and 3 or more calls in a month wad listed as a frequent didpatch. Now repeats are 30 days and frequents are listed as three or more calls in 90 days. Have heard of possible 90 day repeats coming with frequently dispatch calls going to 3 in a year.

A number of things needing done and tests passing need to be meet on a frequent.... a normal service ticket the tech is given 69 minutes from arrival to determine problem.. repair..test..close to be 100% efficient. On a frequent the time is extended to 99 minutes.

TestBoy
Premium Member
join:2009-10-13
Irmo, SC

TestBoy

Premium Member

I figured that it was unavoidable.
I have another appointment today 8am-12pm.

I am afraid that the next guy is going to come out... throw his TDR on it and say it's all good and be on his way.

I grabbed the 8-12 appointment in the hopes I got the call at 8am and it was still flaky.
No such chance.

At the moment it's done it's 1-2 retrains at day on line 1 and settling down since it's getting hotter out. Will be all over by the time another tech shows up.

my thoughts
@72.135.227.x

my thoughts to TestBoy

Anon

to TestBoy
Testboy.... both SN and line attenuation are what would expect around 3000 feet loop length.

for some examples of short loops »What happened?

Mr Fel
INTJ - The Architect
Premium Member
join:2008-03-17
Louisville, KY

Mr Fel to TestBoy

Premium Member

to TestBoy
When a wire/prem tech has to drop a helper ticket to I&R on repairs the job is jep'd on the wire/prem tech side and no repeat is given. Or at least that's the practice, and hopefully the tech follows it.

TestBoy
Premium Member
join:2009-10-13
Irmo, SC

TestBoy

Premium Member

Guy just left... he looked.. changed ports... checked the xbox... sent it to IR.
Just nothing these guys can do.
Saw the history on that line on his ipad.. just nothing but red boxes.

We will see what IR does.
TestBoy

TestBoy

Premium Member

____ circuit protector!

Okay... I had my scotchlocks and pliers in hand this morning when I was getting fed up and I was fixing to take the protector out... looks like that might have been it.
Could have saved myself some time and aggravation if I did that days ago.

oh well.

brookeKrige
join:2012-11-05
San Jose, CA

brookeKrige to tigerpaw509

Member

to tigerpaw509
said by tigerpaw509:

Your performance is all ready available to the Prem tech and the I&R tech via BBT

Can use a cron job to capture RG stats every 30 seconds or less. To have a chance to capture a record of "bad stats" *right* before a late night retrain or reboot (for these endlessly crappy ATT RGs that can't be bothered to simply persistently record/report say, timestamp and value of lowest noise margin in last 48 hour period).

Then what?: Show it to ATT for them to just ignore it too? How many times have we seen threads where repeated tech visits (during the day) show no problem?

You mean ATT already knows about the repeated late-night down-time, the poor line stats at those times, and doesn't care, just keeps spending their own money on truck rolls for the techs to just go thru the motions then gleefully smile and say its all A-OK?

There must be something better than this!

TestBoy
Premium Member
join:2009-10-13
Irmo, SC

TestBoy

Premium Member

What would they do if I showed them the data?
I had taken screenshots of the logs and status pages but that was not important
to anyone. I offered to show it but nope.. not interested.

This guy from IR really did not care a whole lot.... he had the stats from the entire morning there and even his comment... 'well it's been clean since about 10am' and he was here just after 1pm for about 30 minutes.

The previous data meant little to nothing to any of these guys, it had to be happening right then or else there was simply nothing wrong period.

So if it flakes out again at night.. I might as well live with it.
Line conditions improved with the circuit protectors gone.. let's just hope that was not a red herring.
Paralel
join:2011-03-24
Michigan, US

Paralel

Member

Those damn protectors cause more trouble...

Mr Fel
INTJ - The Architect
Premium Member
join:2008-03-17
Louisville, KY
Asus RT-N66

Mr Fel

Premium Member

There are times where they are necessary. Especially in area's with old aerial cable facilities with a high amount of AM traffic in the air. At that point using those protectors with a proper ground at the house will help keep some of that noise out.

Granted that's only a stop gap from actually dealing with the old facilities.

tigerpaw509
join:2011-01-19

tigerpaw509 to TestBoy

Member

to TestBoy
Protectors dont keep noise out......have nothing to do with noise.

Mr Fel
INTJ - The Architect
Premium Member
join:2008-03-17
Louisville, KY

Mr Fel

Premium Member

With a proper ground I've seen them lower FEC counts a couple of times, that rarely happens though.

TestBoy
Premium Member
join:2009-10-13
Irmo, SC

TestBoy

Premium Member

In my case... the one caused issues.
Now that they are gone things are normal again.

tigerpaw509
join:2011-01-19

tigerpaw509 to TestBoy

Member

to TestBoy
The protector is for lightning and electric fault protection.Protectors were called carbons because the front of the fuse actually was common to the line and the back was common to ground with a porcelain ring separation of 1/64 between carbons,when current traveled down the line it would jump the air gap (burn)to ground.Modern protectors are filled with non conductive gas until the presence of voltage then becoming conducive to ground and once voltage is gone they "reset" back to non conductive state.

Trouble shooting intermittent errors is a nightmare.If aerial service wire to house pass's near a street lamp then grounded drop is required.I've seen the neighbors air conditioner cause millions of Fec's or cheap dimmers switches cause millions of errors.Any neon lights near?Grain driers?Welding machines or 3 phase pumps?Times of high humidity can affect inside wiring/jacks or outside cabling.Your cable pairs must be clean and stress clean both ways.

Is this causing video issues or just internet problems.Sounds like you may have one of those nightmare problems.

TestBoy
Premium Member
join:2009-10-13
Irmo, SC

TestBoy

Premium Member

None of the above.
This issue started after a storm.. protector should have probably been a prime suspect but honestly I have never seen a thermally sensitive one.

Unless the second PT or the guy from IR did something else that was not here at the xbox or a ped then it was just the protector.

If it was the storm I guess it did it's job because the modem didn't get stuffed....
Paralel
join:2011-03-24
Michigan, US

Paralel

Member

Meh, even if the gateway was murdered, it isn't your problem. You just get a new one from ATT.