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mrancier
Premium
join:2013-07-27
Roanoke, VA
kudos:1
reply to odog

Re: Throttled at ~250kB a sec individual uploads

said by odog:

We never claimed to be problem free. If you have a problem that we're somehow unaware of, let us know. I'm more than willing to help people on here, I may not be able to every time but that is ultimately why I come here. Cruising the forums isn't my "real" job, but I find it useful since issues don't always trickle up efficiently.

If you want to troubleshoot your home issue, the throughput of youtube or netflix I'm happy to do it. But it is hard to make productive use of the time when all I can do is try to defend us against accusations. Show me/us definitive information and I can act accordingly, heck even circumstantial might be able to get the ball rolling. Otherwise this just turns into a flame war, and you don't get any resolution at all.

I have to say that I can't imaging there is anyone on this forum that is not appreciative of folks like you that take the time out of their day to resolve issues for complete strangers in some internet forum. It takes a special kind of person to extend that sort of kindness, and I certainly recognize that you all (cox people) have done something very special here.
However, I am not the only person in this forum that has expressed frustration about issues that you and your coworkers (?) say don't exist. I have seen many a thread were you or other cox techs ask people to message you their MAC address to check if there is something wrong with their line. While it is great that you are willing to do this, you know better than everyone here that the peering issues and routing problems that may exist within Cox's network and it's partners cannot be resolved by resetting a cable modem or sending a new configuring file to said modem. If you are intimately familiar, as you claimed before, you know darn well that what you do with a persons cable modem isn't going to do damn bit of difference if the problem is routing or peering related. So why even ask ? Circumstantial evidence is all over the internet and in this forum. I am not familiar with cable modem technology, but I am familiar with general networking. I know when something isn't right. I know how make network shaping invisible. That is part of my job. I also can tell tell the difference between a 3Mbps DSL line, a 150Mbps Downlink on a cable modem and an OC-192. Do not try to make this personal or make me out top be troll. I have spend 10 years and thousands of dollars on Cox services. I am not a teenager downloading WAREZ from a Seedbox. Cox is accused (by me, anyway) of implementing traffic shaping and claiming that it does not. How exactly do you rate limit e-mail spammers ? I am not exactly sure, but that sounds like shaping to me. Maybe you have a different term. I may need a dictionary. How do you enforce Copyright violations ? I have many ideas of software and hardware combinations that are sold to businesses to monitor network traffic and make changes accordingly. Look, buddy, you are an amazing person, and clearly a better man than I am. You do a lot of good things in this forum, and you buy your company plenty of goodwill by doing so. This time around, though, you are on shaky ground. There is nothing you can say that will explain the behavior of your network on all the links that we manage as arbitrary. None. Thanks for your generosity and for suffering through my rant.


odog
Cable Centric Vendor Biased
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-05
Atlanta, GA
kudos:14

Do you want to troubleshoot the issue?



mrancier
Premium
join:2013-07-27
Roanoke, VA
kudos:1

said by odog:

Do you want to troubleshoot the issue?

I've talked to Network techs out of Hampton Roads during our last contract negotiations for a circuit upgrade and MPLS about this issue and they haven't found any problems (according to them, anyway). I am unsure what more you can offer. Thanks anyway.


odog
Cable Centric Vendor Biased
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-05
Atlanta, GA
kudos:14

I may not be more, just different. If we're talking specifically about the FTP thing, that shouldn't be a hard nut to crack.



mrancier
Premium
join:2013-07-27
Roanoke, VA
kudos:1

said by odog:

I may not be more, just different. If we're talking specifically about the FTP thing, that shouldn't be a hard nut to crack.

I think I've already gone way over the line here (apologies, nothing personal). I have ways around my issues. I've also vented my frustration. There are people here whom you can make a difference for and will benefit more from your attention. I appreciate the time and energy (and patience) you have spend throughout our interactions. I will move on, and keep my pseudo trolling under control. Thanks again.

AmericanLoco

join:2014-02-08
United State

I really don't understand. You just went on a huge rant, about how you can't resolve your issue - now you have a Cox DOCSIS engineer who's trying to help resolve your issue and you refuse it!?



mrancier
Premium
join:2013-07-27
Roanoke, VA
kudos:1

said by AmericanLoco:

I really don't understand. You just went on a huge rant, about how you can't resolve your issue - now you have a Cox DOCSIS engineer who's trying to help resolve your issue and you refuse it!?

I can see how that can be confusing. Here's the cliff notes : My issues are unrelated or limited to the Cable modem or it's standards. I am convinced, as many others, that the problem is inside the providers network. If you read my many rants you will also see that I have consulted with some of the highest level network techs cox has to offer. This is an issue that he may be unable to resolve. Frankly, after reading all my own responses, I felt foolish. These guys are here to help consumers on their own time. That is amazing. I can work around my issues and get back some of the value I've lost true Cox's shrewd business practices. There are other folks here that he can help : Bad consumer routers, bad cable modems, bad signal, sending new config files, etc. The shaping issues go beyond anything within the scope of these forums. he has no other choice but to defend his employer and what he knows about their practices. I might do the same thing. But in this, we will never look eye to eye. He does not seem to have access to the bits that could help this, and I am sure his employer is not going to be receptive to acknowledging they've been cutting corners and overcharging their customers to maximize profits. There is something wrong. Thousands of people complain every day. You might be fortunate. We are not. We have no choice.

Maltz

join:2011-01-08
Fayetteville, AR

It never hurts to have a new set of eyes look at a problem. Odog may be able to run it up a different flagpole than the previous techs you've worked with, and get better results. In any case, I can't imagine why you would blow off his assistance so quickly.

And seriously, lose the "Cox is out to screw me" attitude. You post no evidence that the problem is even in Cox's network, mush less evidence that it's intentional in the face of their adamant denials. It speaks volumes to odog's patience and character that he's even still reading this thread. Your repeated accusations of his towing the company line are unsubstantiated and uncalled for.



Anonguy33

@70.167.111.x
reply to mrancier

No offense mrancier, but you're assuming a lot about the Cox network. I see posts from all over various markets that say they they are NOT experiencing slow-downs/throttling/evidence of rate-shaping.

If your accusations were true, it would be a company-wide (all markets) policy - and if you've seen how fast internal documentation or new announcements are posted here (and elsewhere) just after they were announced, you'd know we don't keep secrets very well.

The various "CoxTech#" and "odog" folks (and those guys should be thanked more often) aren't the only ones browsing here, and we "anonymous" folks have no problem looking in backbone router configs and logs to make sure things like this aren't happening. And they aren't...we try to keep it simple.



ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

1 edit
reply to Xferlimits

mrancier, have you tried to utilize the multithread mode for your FTP downloading & uploading? I have been using that utilized multithread mode enabled that were working very good. so far, I have no complain on it.

Try it to utilize the multithread mode and drop it about your ranting and complaining, or otherwise, you can founded your own ISP, you have to rent the point to point backbone, SONET ring connectivity for your new ISP.



Anonguy13

@72.208.122.x

I'd love to provide him a SONET ring - would you like an OC192 or an OC768? Throw in a little DWDM, and I can make it as fast as you can handle! But it costs a wee bit more than you're paying now for your cable-modem.



mrancier
Premium
join:2013-07-27
Roanoke, VA
kudos:1

said by Anonguy13 :

I'd love to provide him a SONET ring - would you like an OC192 or an OC768? Throw in a little DWDM, and I can make it as fast as you can handle! But it costs a wee bit more than you're paying now for your cable-modem.

Thanks, but we already have one. Thought it was clear on the other posts. Sorry.


mrancier
Premium
join:2013-07-27
Roanoke, VA
kudos:1
reply to ikyuaoki

said by ikyuaoki:

mrancier, have you tried to utilize the multithread mode for your FTP downloading & uploading? I have been using that utilized multithread mode enabled that were working very good. so far, I have no complain on it.

Try it to utilize the multithread mode and drop it about your ranting and complaining, or otherwise, you can founded your own ISP, you have to rent the point to point backbone, SONET ring connectivity for your new ISP.

I do use multithread/multipart. I initially suggested this to the OP.


ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

mrancier, I see. if that cable modem technology might be not working for you then just ask the Cox for another options that would be gets you a optical service, you could scale it up to 10Gbits bidirectional link that is very pricy that would cost you lots of money for it. if you can't afford then please stop complain about that cable modem technology... why don't you setup the custom firewall to filtering the unwanted packets out of your way?



mrancier
Premium
join:2013-07-27
Roanoke, VA
kudos:1
reply to Anonguy33

said by Anonguy33 :

No offense mrancier, but you're assuming a lot about the Cox network. I see posts from all over various markets that say they they are NOT experiencing slow-downs/throttling/evidence of rate-shaping.

If your accusations were true, it would be a company-wide (all markets) policy - and if you've seen how fast internal documentation or new announcements are posted here (and elsewhere) just after they were announced, you'd know we don't keep secrets very well.

The various "CoxTech#" and "odog" folks (and those guys should be thanked more often) aren't the only ones browsing here, and we "anonymous" folks have no problem looking in backbone router configs and logs to make sure things like this aren't happening. And they aren't...we try to keep it simple.

These are true things you say. I did thank mr. Odog . I think some folks thought I was being condescending. I really do appreciate his help. And there really is no offense to be had. You make good, valid points. My observations are get a bit murky when I try to look at what scenario would cause your network to seemingly falter with fairly mundane traffic from major content providers, but using a tunnel, even one originating across the atlantic, gives me better sustained data rates, on and off fiber. There simply isn't anything : routing can be fixed way easily, peering is a matter of scaling your infrastructure to accommodate what you are selling. So what's left ? This is the problem. Many ask for evidence, but there is no evidence to be found, just the effect on the content being consumed. Believe, I've tried SO many things to figure it out. I am no Elite expert, but I can handle myself well, when it comes to networking.


mrancier
Premium
join:2013-07-27
Roanoke, VA
kudos:1
reply to ikyuaoki

said by ikyuaoki:

mrancier, I see. if that cable modem technology might be not working for you then just ask the Cox for another options that would be gets you a optical service, you could scale it up to 10Gbits bidirectional link that is very pricy that would cost you lots of money for it. if you can't afford then please stop complain about that cable modem technology... why don't you setup the custom firewall to filtering the unwanted packets out of your way?

I would if I could. I already have more equipment than I should for 2 modems. Already have a pretty handy firewall/Router at home: pfsense. Already do a lot of snorting and dropping. We also have quite a bit of fiber at our place of employment. Cox fiber. Cox fiber ring. 150 Mbps backbone, 50 Mbps links to several dozen buildings. 6 Remote locations on Cable modems. Like I said, we aren't the greatest, but we do have a significant amount of equipment. Anyways, same thing happens on the backbone uplink. No difference, inexplicable slowdown of mundane traffic.
I could stop complaining, but how would I get my moneys worth then ? Seriously, this isn't personal, it is a problem that exists, and I have not found a satisfactory explanation.


mrancier
Premium
join:2013-07-27
Roanoke, VA
kudos:1
reply to Maltz

said by Maltz:

It never hurts to have a new set of eyes look at a problem. Odog may be able to run it up a different flagpole than the previous techs you've worked with, and get better results. In any case, I can't imagine why you would blow off his assistance so quickly.

And seriously, lose the "Cox is out to screw me" attitude. You post no evidence that the problem is even in Cox's network, mush less evidence that it's intentional in the face of their adamant denials. It speaks volumes to odog's patience and character that he's even still reading this thread. Your repeated accusations of his towing the company line are unsubstantiated and uncalled for.

Not entirely sure how to respond. I suppose the best thing I can say is that this is my opinion and my perception and I am entitled to them. I have discussed this with cox directly and haven't received a satisfactory answer.
You have your opinions and I have mine. Democracy at work. God Bless America.


Anonguy33

@72.208.122.x
reply to mrancier

quote:
peering is a matter of scaling your infrastructure to accommodate what you are selling
Again, you're assuming it's Cox that doesn't have the infrastructure at the peering points...why aren't you allowing the possibility that it's the peering point that can't handle the bandwidth we're throwing at them?


CoxVegas

join:2011-07-25
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:10
reply to mrancier

said by mrancier:

Not entirely sure how to respond. I suppose the best thing I can say is that this is my opinion and my perception and I am entitled to them. I have discussed this with cox directly and haven't received a satisfactory answer.
You have your opinions and I have mine. Democracy at work. God Bless America.

I apologize if you haven't gotten a satisfactory answer, but we really need more information to troubleshoot your reported problem.

odog is more than capable of looking further than just the DOCSIS layer. Most of us Cox folks that help on these forums have our contacts everywhere (including backbone) that we engage for issues we see here.

FTP is not throttled on the Cox network - I have said this, as has odog, plus Cox has it in our published policies. odog and myself are both very, very familiar with the Cox network as a whole.

Congestion at a peering location is not likely, as you stated that multiple sessions get you to the full speed, but each session seems capped at 250kB a second. The end throughput going through the node doesn't appreciably change whether it's one session or many This sounds like either your client or the server on the other side are doing the rate limiting.

We are happy to look at things. Traceroutes are a good start - we can look at the various links and see what's going on. Feel free to either post them here, or PM myself or odog, and we can take a look.


mrancier
Premium
join:2013-07-27
Roanoke, VA
kudos:1
reply to Anonguy33

said by Anonguy33 :

quote:
peering is a matter of scaling your infrastructure to accommodate what you are selling
Again, you're assuming it's Cox that doesn't have the infrastructure at the peering points...why aren't you allowing the possibility that it's the peering point that can't handle the bandwidth we're throwing at them?

You're right. There is a fair amount of prejudice in my views. That is why I've chosen to not continue this conversation. I can get by the blocks ( what I perceive as blocks, to be clear ). I've inadvertently turned this into a flame war of sorts. It is a waste of every-ones time and energy. And I apologize to everyone involved.


mrancier
Premium
join:2013-07-27
Roanoke, VA
kudos:1
reply to CoxVegas

said by CoxVegas:

said by mrancier:

Not entirely sure how to respond. I suppose the best thing I can say is that this is my opinion and my perception and I am entitled to them. I have discussed this with cox directly and haven't received a satisfactory answer.
You have your opinions and I have mine. Democracy at work. God Bless America.

I apologize if you haven't gotten a satisfactory answer, but we really need more information to troubleshoot your reported problem.

odog is more than capable of looking further than just the DOCSIS layer. Most of us Cox folks that help on these forums have our contacts everywhere (including backbone) that we engage for issues we see here.

FTP is not throttled on the Cox network - I have said this, as has odog, plus Cox has it in our published policies. odog and myself are both very, very familiar with the Cox network as a whole.

Congestion at a peering location is not likely, as you stated that multiple sessions get you to the full speed, but each session seems capped at 250kB a second. The end throughput going through the node doesn't appreciably change whether it's one session or many This sounds like either your client or the server on the other side are doing the rate limiting.

We are happy to look at things. Traceroutes are a good start - we can look at the various links and see what's going on. Feel free to either post them here, or PM myself or odog, and we can take a look.

That is an amazing offer, and a well thought out analysis. I thank you for your time, and for your patience. I will not pursue this any further. I already made myself post like a troll enough, and it is counter productive, for all of us.
To be clear : I meant all the good things I said about you and your co-workers. I think what you do is an amazing thing, for a company your size, specially since most of you do it on your own time. I have followed your posts and odog's for years. I have no doubt that you are ALL well trained engineers, and that, given the opportunity, and enough time, you could help me and others get to bottom of this mystery. I genuinely regret implying that odog would be unable to help. It was poorly worded and even more poorly stated. Hopefully, this will bring this thread to the grave, annd we can all move on. I will accept my troll badge.


Xferlimits

@96.44.145.x

An update:

I sit here retrieving a ~1gb file at my office, same exact conditions as before, only this time, the transfer speed is back to the advertised amount, ~ 1.3MiB a second. So either:

1. A huge coincidence happened, and the routes magically fixed themselves in the past 2-3 days, allowing full transfer speeds for an individual connection.
2. My new billing period started and I've only used a fraction of my data cap, thus cox is not throttling me anymore.

Any other theories?



mrancier
Premium
join:2013-07-27
Roanoke, VA
kudos:1

After this whole thing happened, I decided to let all this go. After reading your post I decided to check a few things again and, wouldn't you know it, things have improved significantly. I don't think you are being throttled for overage, but something did change. Youtube streams are coming WAY faster now. Netflix, though, is a bit iffy, but I think it was a change on their end. My PS3 and Visio smart tv keep buffering every 5-10 minutes, while my Fire TV works flawlessly. ESFTP is working much better, still not optimal, but WAY better. Might have been a routing change, possibly on a third party interconnect company(Cox partner). But things have improved quite a bit.


AmericanLoco

join:2014-02-08
United State
reply to Xferlimits

I went over my cap, still no problems with FTP. They must have just had a glitch that got fixed...


Rakeesh

join:2011-10-30
Mesa, AZ
Reviews:
·Sprint Mobile Br..
·Cox HSI
reply to Xferlimits

said by Xferlimits :

An update:

I sit here retrieving a ~1gb file at my office, same exact conditions as before, only this time, the transfer speed is back to the advertised amount, ~ 1.3MiB a second. So either:

1. A huge coincidence happened, and the routes magically fixed themselves in the past 2-3 days, allowing full transfer speeds for an individual connection.
2. My new billing period started and I've only used a fraction of my data cap, thus cox is not throttling me anymore.

Any other theories?

Pretty sure Cox doesn't do any throttling.

At least, I haven't seen any evidence of it on my end. I recall at one point in 2004 or so I was unable to establish ed2k sessions (they would get dropped almost instantly after they were established, and about this time it was rumored that Cox was starting to filter P2P) but that long since stopped once ed2k protocol encryption was implemented, and other than that I haven't seen any strange goings on at layer 3.


floridaguy2

@68.101.72.x

Cox may not intentionally throttle upload speeds, but their network does strange things on the upstream that I have not been able to replicate on any ISP.

In the past, I've mentioned the strange throttling that occurs after the first couple gigabytes uploaded, and the continued throttling of upload bandwidth that occurs for a period of time (set amount of hours or days). It should be noted that the time of the day had no impact on my tests. When I tried to bring up these issues, I was attacked for violating the ToS by running a server. Either these Cox employees are activing lying, or there is something in the mix that they are unaware of that affects the maintenance of a stable upload speed.

It can be very difficult obtaining assistance because there tends to be almost an institutional and pervasive bias of user incompetence. When 99 out of 100 times, it is user incompetence this can be forgiven. Yet, we are the 1%, the 1% that tends to get ignored and told that we should shop elsewhere if we aren't happy with mysterious throttling and traffic shaping. The trouble is there is no elsewhere. Sure, there is a multi-thousand per month special package, great, did it make you feel better to belittle my purchasing power? /end rant