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antdes457
join:2005-11-26
Quebec, QC

antdes457

Member

Re: NID not grounded

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chip89
Premium Member
join:2012-07-05
Columbia Station, OH

chip89 to antdes457

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to antdes457
I know in the US code says it should be grounded.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

THere's no question that it SHOULD be grounded. The concern is how to do that in an acceptable way.
antdes457
join:2005-11-26
Quebec, QC

antdes457

Member

Absolutely. TS will eventually open a ticket now that they have the authorization to process my support case. (The account is not at my name)

tigerpaw509
join:2011-01-19

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to antdes457
This looks like a hack work my someone other than a real technician.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to sbrook

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to sbrook
said by sbrook:

Now with plastic pipes you can't do that and the copper plumbing is not properly bonded. (again, note the distinction between grounding and bonding)

Technically, you're supposed to bond both sides of a main shutoff valve on a copper supply.
antdes457
join:2005-11-26
Quebec, QC

antdes457 to tigerpaw509

Member

to tigerpaw509
Well the house was built without electricity at first, and then phone was added at least 40 years later. The town got phone in 1956, so of course it's all patch work to an existing house. Knob and tube wiring is mostly disabled by now, aluminum wire was removed and I believe I only have a single groundless outlet now. The only phone ground the house used to have is probably older than grounded outlets so I don't know what was the code by then. Maybe the 20ft cloth wire touching the ground was judged enough then. That patch work has to get up to code somehow.
antdes457

antdes457 to MaynardKrebs

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to MaynardKrebs
Even the water heater has to have both sides bonded I believe.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook to antdes457

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to antdes457
In some places bonding occurs all over the place ... any significant piece of exposed metalwork attached to the fabric of the house must be electrically bonded in a network of bonding wires. You can't bond the electrical safety ground at the nearest switch or outlet ... it must go to a bonding bar.

Things like any runs of copper pipe. Every metallic drain pipe such as the brass tail piece int eh bottom of the sink. It's almost gone crazy!

Here we have a compromise, thank goodness!
btech805
join:2013-08-01
Canada

btech805 to antdes457

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to antdes457
The one exception to grounding is when we cannot verify the cable os properly grounded we do not want to create a ground loop with your service drop. Usually this is only in encapsulated (encap) neighborhoods, and if we test for ground on the encap it gives poor readings we will not ground at the nid to avoid causing a ground loop affecting your dsl service.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to antdes457

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Or the OP can just leave things as-is, and when a lightning strike burns his house to the ground & the fire marshal traces it back to the lack of a Bell ground ...... he's in the money, he's in the money.
antdes457
join:2005-11-26
Quebec, QC

antdes457

Member

Well the Bell tech has called back to know about the problem, and he said that this shouldn't be brought to the repair department, but to the install department. He's supposed to redirect the right place, but who knows if that's going to bring me anywhere.
btech805
join:2013-08-01
Canada

btech805

Member

Sounds like you got fluffed off. A tech is a tech. Theres no such thing as install vs. Repair techs.
antdes457
join:2005-11-26
Quebec, QC

antdes457

Member

OK, just told Tek on the direct forum. If they can't get them to do something after in 1-2 weeks, maybe I'll start to consider CRTC.
antdes457

antdes457

Member

A 2nd technician called and was already in front of the house. He's going to install a new NID on Monday with a 5ft ground rod and a full house DSL splitter at accessible heights (not 15ft in the air). He doesn't believe that ground bonding is required, so I might have to get that done, but I'll check the Quebec electrical code first to look at the requirements over here. (Maybe it's different from CEC.)
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

Bell NEVER installed a exterior demarc when my 6/1 service was upgraded to 25/10 service was installed. In fact they never entered my premises - just switched my over at the Stinger.

Bell should be taken to task at the CRTC over faulty installs which don't conform to electrical code.
Ditto for Rogers.
antdes457
join:2005-11-26
Quebec, QC

antdes457

Member

Well it seems that exterior demarcs aren't required, but then the "unprotected" wire has to run in EMT or be shielded.... (of course it's not).

So yes, bonding is still applicable in Quebec, but Bell won't tell the techs to save on copper possibly. (Or he doesn't want to dig a trench, or that's up to an electrician to do that job). I asked if I could get the drop from another telephone post to reach the main ground directly, and that was out of the question.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

He will have done his part probably in providing the grounding ... It could well be considered "inside wiring" to provide the bonding to your electrical ground.
antdes457
join:2005-11-26
Quebec, QC

antdes457

Member

Absolutely. He even told me he could install one indoor plug for free. I'd rather take my own CAT6 and do that part myself. While I'm thinking about it, the techs aren't licensed electricians, so maybe they're not even allowed to make the ground bonding. At least, unlike the wiring guides I found in the first page, I don't have to provide the ground stake and wire to Bell.
morisato
join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON

1 edit

morisato to antdes457

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to antdes457
said by antdes457:

Yep, so the solution is either a stake and a looong bonding wire travelling underground around the house, or moving the phone drop along the power drop.

EDIT: Is that enough for TekSavvy? If I need to get in the NID, I'll borrow one of the worker's ladder.

Thats not a NID for starters Looks Like an Old Hybrid Protector. So you currently have No Nid looks Like someone was very lazy and did not want to replace yer drop and put that Box there to scotchlock wires together and just run new wire from that box into the house Chances are you need the Drop Replaced with a proper length wire and a Properly Grounded Nid installed.

Also We are indeed Not electricians but we ground to many Sources and At least In Ontario a Outside demarc is required on every install We Must put up a nid Supervisors drive around and randomly check jobs u do to ensure u Put a nid up and grounded it.

Again what appears to have happened from what i see and how i know most techs Are lazy that is - Your drop likely went bad Due to a section of the wire after the dropclamp, lazy Tech Does not want to replace the Drop Like he should have. So Instead he Cuts the drop at the clamp Meters it tests Good Sticks a protector way up high to use as a Weather protection for Scotchlocks or if he was feeling kind he used the Bindingposts inside. Ran new wire from there into house to save Himself changing yer drop. Grounding it never Occured to him because it was Likely previously Grounded on The Inside, and he may have done all this before it became Company Policy to Install a Nid on every job.

Correct way for him to have done this job would if it went as I think it did would have been to replace The entire Drop from the Pole to your Home, Use the correct Length of wire, and go all the way in if it was prior to Nid requirement.

if it happened after nids became a requirement Should have Ran the new drop to your electrical meter on the Outside if possible Then Attached the Nid to the Electrical meters Pipes and Grounded it on The meter Box. Then Ran A new Wire inside from there to the Pots Splitter or Ddi.

heh Ideal World eh?
antdes457
join:2005-11-26
Quebec, QC

1 edit

antdes457

Member

No news from bell yet..

Edit : A Bell tech came today after the 12-5pm period I was told on the phone when a 2nd ticket was placed. The job was supposed to be done two weeks ago, but today's tech told me that Bell refused to let the other guy come do the job on the 9th for some reason. Today's guy is supposed to come here tomorrow and should install the NID and a new drop along the meter pole, rather than hammering in a ground rod. I connected a CAT6 to my ADSL splitter with the other end going outdoors a few feet under the meter box. He'll just have to connect the NID there and I'll take care of removing the crap wiring at the other end.
antdes457

antdes457

Member

Well it took 5 visits from Bell, but now it's done properly!
btech805
join:2013-08-01
Canada

btech805

Member

At least it is done now! I really don't understand what took so long but it is done now. No wonder we're forced into overtime with requiring 5 tech visits...
cepnot4me
join:2013-10-29
L0C 1K0

cepnot4me

Member

I didn't read this whole thread, but want to chime in with my 2 cents anyway.

All drops should be bonded. This is not grounding as Sbrook was saying. Bonding is keeping the drop and lash wire or strand at the same potential voltage. It connects itself eventually to the hydro pole ground. This is the first line of defense for lightning strikes to the plant. And also it keeps the strand voltage free for us when we are working on it (In theory).

Grounding at the home is typically done at the hydro meter. Cold water pipes maybe, however with PEX and pvc going into houses now a day the cold water pipes are an unknown.

The ground wire cannot be more than 50% the length of your drop. 75% depending on the gauge of wire used.

Never ground to a gas line. 5-10 years ago in Mississauga someone did, house went kaboom.

Ground rods and ground plates need to be a good 10 feet down. In the water table. Telcos don't usually use them anymore they proved ineffective because they were not far enough down. They ended up in dry soil and conducted nothing.

Grounding dissipates voltage coming back from equipment. It dissipates emf and ingress. The idea is to keep these voltages from going back out to the plant.

In the event a lightning strike near the plant allows the voltage into the cable or Telcos wiring a ground will protect your inside wiring and anything connected to it after the ground.

In Whitby we had 8 lightning strikes in one storm. Those with grounded cable lines needed new drops, those without grounds needed new everything from the drop through the house including all of their electronics.
btech805
join:2013-08-01
Canada

btech805

Member

Ive seen houses where the lightening hit the house itself and the drop was grounded. The customers needed new everything inside but our outside plant was safe. Blew the protector off the side of the house but there was still clean dial tone at the end of the drop