Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27 |
to nunya
[Electrical] Re: New electrical panel failed inspectionsaid by nunya:The ground rod is 250.53(A)(1), 250.52(A)(5), and 110.12
The ground rods can stick out 0. Their heads should be under ground.
Ground rods that stick up are a trip hazard. This is where I would disagree with the code completely. If you didn't trip over 2 bushes, a tree, a Verizon cable and a sump pump pipe while trying to get to where the grounds are, you are probably not going to trip over those either. Additionally, there is mulch all over that area, it erodes, should I drive the rods a foot underground? said by nunya:Often, the ground is accidentally broken or disconnected over time causing a safety hazard. isn't that why there are 3 grounds? 2 rods and a water meter, so even if one gets severed, there is no safety hazard? said by nunya:I would have probably mounted the panel a little more proud to make the drywall a non-issue. Or maybe used a "surface" type box instead (wrap around lid). Not that I was offered a surface mount, but I wouldn't have agreed to one either way. I still can't wrap my head as to why it matters. The wires are insulated and are not on the floor, it's not like something will happen to them from being exposed. It's not that it's hard to put up drywall, I just don't think that's a good reason to fail a panel. |
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joewho
Premium Member
join:2004-08-20
Dundee, IL |
joewho
Premium Member
2014-Jun-11 6:31 pm
The upper wires can't fall out due to gravity. The lower wires can. Same principle as mounting gfci upside down. |
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 garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
1 recommendation |
to Dodge
said by Dodge: isn't that why there are 3 grounds? 2 rods and a water meter, so even if one gets severed, there is no safety hazard? Not really, it's to reduce grounding impedance. Having multiple grounds does improve safety, but keeping the tops of the rods buried improves it more. Just have them put in deeper and don't worry about it. I'm actually surprised the electrician didn't take care of them in the first place. |
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Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27 |
to joewho
said by joewho:The upper wires can't fall out due to gravity. The lower wires can. Same principle as mounting gfci upside down. And drywall will negate gravity? said by garys_2k:Just have them put in deeper and don't worry about it. I'm actually surprised the electrician didn't take care of them in the first place. he did, that was weeks ago, heavy rains eroded the damn mulch. That's what annoys me, what am I supposed to do, dump more mulch on it and pretend the problem is solved or dig a hole to drive the rods deeper. This stupid clay soil is almost impossible to drive anything into to begin with. |
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 davidgGood Bye My Friend
MVM
join:2002-06-15
00000 |
davidg
MVM
2014-Jun-11 7:04 pm
the rod should be below grade not below mulch. I know it sucks, but that is the way it is. we had to have a rod installed after a meter base changeout at work a few years back because the inspector could not see one. nevermind the fact we have a grounding system in place with multiple buildings and a tower bonded to a ring, he could not see the 1 he wanted and made them put in a new one(which we promptly clipped loose soon as he left since it was not bonded to the main system) just to sign off. |
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spock8
Member
2014-Jun-11 7:40 pm
All the inspectors concerns are legit. |
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 nunyaLXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO ·Charter
1 recommendation |
to Dodge
The cover needs to be closed (gapless) to contain a fire / flash. The same reason empty knockouts aren't allowed.
A properly installed panel WILL contain a fire for a period of time. I've personally witnessed it. The inside of the panel will be roached, but the house is still standing.
The ground rods? You are grasping at straws there. All 8' of the rod are required to be in contact with the earth, outside of the eaves dripline. Your electrician 1/2 assed it. This is 1st year apprentice stuff. Don't take it personally. If he can't figure out how to get an 8' rod under the dirt or find another grounding means, then he deserves the call back.
For those two items, you should direct your ire at the guy you are writing a check to. His job is to know this stuff. |
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garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI |
to Dodge
said by Dodge:what am I supposed to do, dump more mulch on it and pretend the problem is solved or dig a hole to drive the rods deeper. Neither. Have the electrician put the rods in the way they were supposed to be put in from the start. You paid him for a good job, it's his problem. |
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 Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH |
to Dodge
said by Dodge:2 bushes, a tree, a Verizon cable and a sump pump pipe while trying to get to where the grounds are ... should I drive the rods a foot underground? The electric code isn't written to deal with your yard. I have neither bushes, a tree, a Verizon cable or a sump pump pipe near my ground rod. If you can drive it a foot underground, go for it ! I doubt there's 12" of slack ground wire available though.... I think an inch would suffice. |
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MT guy to Dodge
Anon
2014-Jun-11 10:32 pm
to Dodge
Last time I used a QO panel, the bonding screw went through the square hole in the neutral buss just to the left of the black feeder 'hot' lug. If they are still made the same way, yours looks like it's missing. In the picture, it looks like there may be a green head screw at the top of the right-hand neutral bar. If so, Square D may have revised the design. |
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 LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA |
to garys_2k
said by garys_2k:said by Dodge: isn't that why there are 3 grounds? 2 rods and a water meter, so even if one gets severed, there is no safety hazard? Not really, it's to reduce grounding impedance. Having multiple grounds does improve safety, but keeping the tops of the rods buried improves it more. Just have them put in deeper and don't worry about it. I'm actually surprised the electrician didn't take care of them in the first place. Also, don't confuse "grounding" with "grounded" and "bonded" - they are all related, but separate. The ground rods provide the "ground" - the bond to the water line, the gas line, etc, are to ensure they stay at the same potential; to minimize shock hazards. It is possible for the water line to be the ground, in specific instances; although that's fallen out of favour (at least up here) in the last few decades. Drive the ground rods down a foot below grade; fix the drywall. As for the 2 wire issue - need more details - my gut says it's the top-right breakers (that appear to be a MWBC) without a handle tie; but that's pretty much a guess... |
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mr weather
Premium Member
join:2002-02-27
Mississauga, ON |
said by LazMan:It is possible for the water line to be the ground, in specific instances; although that's fallen out of favour (at least up here) in the last few decades. Our house is 22 years old and uses the incoming cold water service as ground. Problem is too many places have a mix of copper and plastic (Pex) or all plastic and there's no electrical conductivity at all. |
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JoelC707
Premium Member
join:2002-07-09
Lanett, AL
1 recommendation |
JoelC707
Premium Member
2014-Jun-12 3:16 pm
My grandparents house is that way. The one and only ground source that I have seen is the water line. A year ago the water line sprung a leak right at the entrance to the house and was replaced with PVC or PEX (not sure which as I didn't see the work being done). I can almost guarantee you no one thought about the ground being severed now. In fact until I thought about it now, I didn't even think about it. |
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 brian
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mission Viejo, CA |
to mr weather
Our 36 year old house has an Ufer ground. There's also a bond to the water lines on the output side of the water heater. When we had our panel replaced 3 years ago, the electrician added a bond to the cold water line near the main shutoff. |
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to joewho
The wires go through those connectors that should be tightened. Plus, the hot, neutral, and ground wires are all connected to stuff.
The only way it could fall out due to gravity is if it's not in use, and thus not hot, and thus not a safety issue. |
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