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Canadian Chat → Save a Duck Face Criminal Negligence charges (redux)

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zong Premium Member join:2005-07-21 Scarborough, ON 1 edit	zong Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 12:52 pm Save a Duck Face Criminal Negligence charges (redux) The jury is in (so to speak), we all had a nice debate with some polarizing viewpoints, anyhow in reference to this thread: »Save a Duck Face Criminal Negligence charges on page 5 a request was made "Will you likewise update us if her defence counsel is right and she is acquitted or the charges are dropped/reduced?" I would like to point out she was found guilty. As she should have been IMO. »www.cbc.ca/news/canada/m ··· .2682200 A woman who stopped to help a group of ducklings on the side of the road in 2010 has been found guilty of causing the deaths of a motorcyclist and his passenger daughter who slammed into her parked car on a Montreal-area highway. Emma Czornobaj was convicted Friday on two counts of criminal negligence causing death and two counts of dangerous driving causing death. Czornobaj, 25, was charged after Andre Roy, 50, and his daughter, Jessie, 16, were killed. Roy's motorcycle slammed into Czornobaj's car, which was stopped in the left lane of a provincial highway in Candiac, south of Montreal. His daughter was riding on the back of the motorcycle when the collision happened on June 27, 2010. Quebec motorist accused in two deaths said she was helping ducks The trial heard that Czornobaj, who had three years of driving experience at the time, had stopped to rescue ducklings on the side of the road. The professed animal lover told the court that she did not see the ducklings' mother anywhere and planned to capture them and take them home. Czornobaj's lawyer said the defence will be pushing for no jail time because of the lack of criminal intent. Adding this for those who are not up on the details of the case, which includes witness testimony as to the specific circumstances which caused this: »www.cbc.ca/news/canada/m ··· .2663840
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 12:52 pm · (locked)

Nitra join:2011-09-15 Montreal	Nitra Member 2014-Jun-20 1:08 pm Guilty yes, but will she serve time is the question of the hour......
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 1:08 pm · (locked)
Gone Premium Member join:2011-01-24 Fort Erie, ON	Gone to zong Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 1:47 pm to zong I guess next time someone rear-ends a car they can blame the driver of the car they hit.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 1:47 pm · (locked)
MaynardKrebs We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee. Premium Member join:2009-06-17	MaynardKrebs Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 1:56 pm said by Gone: I guess next time someone rear-ends a car they can blame the driver of the car they hit. Only if you're dead. Otherwise you're at fault.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 1:56 pm · (locked)
Gone Premium Member join:2011-01-24 Fort Erie, ON	Gone Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:05 pm What if I'm just hurt real real bad?
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:05 pm · (locked)
dirtyjeffer0 Posers don't use avatars. Premium Member join:2002-02-21 London, ON	dirtyjeffer0 Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:15 pm call Pistol Pete's Injury Claim Service...he also has a fine selection of used cars to replace your destroyed vehicle with too...it's one stop shopping.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:15 pm · (locked)
Anav Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic Premium Member join:2001-07-16 Dartmouth, NS	Anav Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:17 pm Just goes to show any idiot can buy a car and get a license.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:17 pm · (locked)
Gone Premium Member join:2011-01-24 Fort Erie, ON	Gone to dirtyjeffer0 Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:18 pm to dirtyjeffer0 said by dirtyjeffer0: call Pistol Pete's Injury Claim Service...he also has a fine selection of used cars to replace your destroyed vehicle with too...it's one stop shopping. You'd know all about that, eh jeffer?
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:18 pm · (locked)
dirtyjeffer0 Posers don't use avatars. Premium Member join:2002-02-21 London, ON	dirtyjeffer0 Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:19 pm i've never personally used his services, but he seems like a good guy and knows his stuff.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:19 pm · (locked)
dirtyjeffer0	dirtyjeffer0 to Anav Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:20 pm to Anav said by Anav: Just goes to show any idiot can buy a car and get a license. i wouldn't be too hard on her...it was dumb of her to stop on the highway, but her intentions were "good". what's that saying??...the road to hell is paved with good intentions?
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:20 pm · (locked)
EUS Kill cancer Premium Member join:2002-09-10 canada	EUS Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:25 pm You're right, her actions killed only 2 people. No reason to come down hard on the retard. She's a stupid, self-absorbed dumbass, who should never be allowed behind the wheel again.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:25 pm · (locked)
mr weather Premium Member join:2002-02-27 Mississauga, ON	mr weather to zong Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:26 pm to zong So being convicted of criminal negligence causing death means she had some sort of criminal intent to kill the motorcyclist and his passenger?
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:26 pm · (locked)
dirtyjeffer0 Posers don't use avatars. Premium Member join:2002-02-21 London, ON	dirtyjeffer0 to EUS Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:27 pm to EUS said by EUS: You're right, her actions killed only 2 people. No reason to come down hard on the retard. She's a stupid, self-absorbed dumbass, who should never be allowed behind the wheel again. look, i'm not trying to reduce her share of the blame here, but she isn't "self absorbed"...she stopped her car to save ducks...if she were self absorbed, she would have mowed them down, or let the next car do so...her fault is actually the opposite of what you claim...she was unfortunately too caring a person...look, this is just a bad mess that sometimes, some people have to deal with.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:27 pm · (locked)
dirtyjeffer0	dirtyjeffer0 to mr weather Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:28 pm to mr weather said by mr weather: So being convicted of criminal negligence causing death means she had some sort of criminal intent to kill the motorcyclist and his passenger? no...negligence doesn't involve intent...that's what murder/homicide is for...if she planted the car there in order to kill people purposefully, then perhaps homicide charges would have been laid (of course, increasing the burden of proof).
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:28 pm · (locked)
analog andy join:2005-01-03 Surrey, BC	analog andy to zong Member 2014-Jun-20 2:34 pm to zong Are there any photos of what the road looks like? Was she in the left/right lane or on the side of the road? How did the guy driving the bike not see a car moving up faster to him than normal?
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:34 pm · (locked)
Gone Premium Member join:2011-01-24 Fort Erie, ON	Gone to EUS Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:37 pm to EUS said by EUS: You're right, her actions killed only 2 people. No reason to come down hard on the retard. She's a stupid, self-absorbed dumbass, who should never be allowed behind the wheel again. The person who was driving the motorcycle got himself and his passenger killed and had no business riding on a public highway if he was unable to maneuver his motorcycle around a stationary object on the road.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:37 pm · (locked)
MaynardKrebs We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee. Premium Member join:2009-06-17	MaynardKrebs to Gone Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:38 pm to Gone said by Gone: What if I'm just hurt real real bad? Then you're in a world of hurt, and you'll be required to listen to only country music.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:38 pm · (locked)
donoreo Premium Member join:2002-05-30 North York, ON	donoreo Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:40 pm said by MaynardKrebs: said by Gone: What if I'm just hurt real real bad? Then you're in a world of hurt, and you'll be required to listen to only country music. Isn't that unconstitutional as cruel and unusual punishment?
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:40 pm · (locked)
Gone Premium Member join:2011-01-24 Fort Erie, ON 1 recommendation	Gone to MaynardKrebs Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:42 pm to MaynardKrebs said by MaynardKrebs: Then you're in a world of hurt, and you'll be required to listen to only country music. I'm talking about an injury from an accident, not the obvious severe mental injury that would occur from being forced to listen to country music.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:42 pm · (locked)
MaynardKrebs We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee. Premium Member join:2009-06-17	MaynardKrebs to donoreo Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 2:43 pm to donoreo said by donoreo: said by MaynardKrebs: said by Gone: What if I'm just hurt real real bad? Then you're in a world of hurt, and you'll be required to listen to only country music. Isn't that unconstitutional as cruel and unusual punishment? We may have to refer that to the Supreme Court of Canada for a ruling. I'm sure the Reformers would want a ruling on that. Something to do with 'western alienation' and such.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 2:43 pm · (locked)
Guspaz Guspaz MVM join:2001-11-05 Montreal, QC	Guspaz to zong MVM 2014-Jun-20 3:47 pm to zong Good. What she did was so mind-mindbogglingly stupid that the jury's verdict is the only logical result. Maybe she doesn't deserve the maximum sentence (which, aggregated from the four charges, are two life sentences and two 14 year sentences)... but it would be a perversion of justice if she gets to kill two people and walk off scott free. EDIT: I think probably something fair might be 5 to 10 years in prison and a lifetime ban on operating a motor vehicle. That's a heck of a lot less than the 2 x life + 28 years that are the max she faces.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 3:47 pm · (locked)
Thane_Bitter Inquire within Premium Member join:2005-01-20	Thane_Bitter to zong Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 3:48 pm to zong So remind me again why the motorcyclist could not stop in time? From what I recall she was parked and out of her car playing nursemaid to the ducks. Driver training includes a bit about leaving a safe distance, how was it that the bike driver was caught off guard and slammed into her? Was it bad sight-lines, a curve, something else that lead to the impact?
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 3:48 pm · (locked)
dirtyjeffer0 Posers don't use avatars. Premium Member join:2002-02-21 London, ON	dirtyjeffer0 Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 3:51 pm said by Thane_Bitter: So remind me again why the motorcyclist could not stop in time? From what I recall she was parked and out of her car playing nursemaid to the ducks. Driver training includes a bit about leaving a safe distance, how was it that the bike driver was caught off guard and slammed into her? Was it bad sight-lines, a curve, something else that lead to the impact? all very good questions, which may have had something to do with the verdict...for example, if it was foggy, dark, on a curve and raining out, that would certainly lessen the fault of the car driver...but at the end of the day, you can't stop on a highway...this is exactly why you aren't allowed to.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 3:51 pm · (locked)
Guspaz Guspaz MVM join:2001-11-05 Montreal, QC	Guspaz to zong MVM 2014-Jun-20 3:52 pm to zong The motorcycle driver braked 9 metres away from the car, her car didn't have the hazard lights on (so no brake lights to indicate it was stopped), it was blocking a highway lane (there was no shoulder), and she was on a curve in the road (reduced visibility distance). One witness (unrelated to her victims) described only barely avoiding a collision by violently swerving out of the way. How fast can you make a decision to brake or swerve? Going at typical highway speeds of 120 kilometres per hour (the motorcycle was going about that or slightly faster), if you take even one second to react, you've travelled 33 metres.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 3:52 pm · (locked)
peterboro (banned) Avatars are for posers join:2006-11-03 Peterborough, ON 3 recommendations	peterboro (banned) Member 2014-Jun-20 3:56 pm If she hadn't of stopped then someone else may have braked for the ducks and caused a pileup killing a hundred people. I don't know what they teach you Quebec motorcycle riders but here in Ontario we are taught to assume every car will slam on it's brakes or stop or act in the most dangerous fashion possible. I suggest the Quebec training standards be evaluated and brought up to best practices in other regions of North America.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 3:56 pm · (locked)
Gone Premium Member join:2011-01-24 Fort Erie, ON	Gone to Guspaz Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 4:09 pm to Guspaz The only thing perverted about this whole situation is that someone is being held responsible for the incompetence of another person who is such a poor driver that they were unable to realize that there was a non-moving object on the road in front of them until they slammed on the brakes less then 30 feet away. In addition to improved driver and motorcyclist training, perhaps Quebec should also consider implementing shoulders on highways like other North American jurisdictions so that tragedies like these do not happen again. Who wants to bet that Quebec went gung-ho with criminal charges in an effort to try and blame someone else entirely for what happened and insulate themselves from civil liability?
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 4:09 pm · (locked)
dirtyjeffer0 Posers don't use avatars. Premium Member join:2002-02-21 London, ON	dirtyjeffer0 to peterboro Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 4:13 pm to peterboro said by peterboro: If she hadn't of stopped then someone else may have braked for the ducks and caused a pileup killing a hundred people. I don't know what they teach you Quebec motorcycle riders but here in Ontario we are taught to assume every car will slam on it's brakes or stop or act in the most dangerous fashion possible. I suggest the Quebec training standards be evaluated and brought up to best practices in other regions of North America. it is quite likely the motorcycle rider was very well aware of such riding techniques...but you can't stop on a dime, and if the stopped car was "invisible" (due to various conditions mentioned), it is likely the motorcycle rider was unable to avoid the accident...from the result of the case, that is likely why the driver of the car was charged. here is an example...when i was 17, i was riding to my friends house on a new motorcycle i had just purchased the day before...my friend was on the back, and we were going to another friends house as he too had a bike and we were going to ride together to school...on the way (it was only a few blocks), i noticed a car backing out of the driveway...so i had the hands prepared to brake if needed...the driver looked at me, looked the other way, then back at me (this all happened in a matter of a couple of seconds)...right at the last second, the driver of the car pulled out in front of me and i crashed into the side of his car...the bike was destroyed, i went through his passenger door window (missing the B pillar by a few inches) and the friend was tossed over the car and landed on the other side...fortunately, no serious injuries...the driver was charged (he said "I didn't see him", despite looking at me more than once)...i couldn't stop in time...i squeezed the brake and clutch lever so hard, i bent the handles...fortunately, i was driving well within the speed limit (i was likely only going 40) as if it happened on an open road, and my speed was highway speeds, i would have likely been dead...had i hit the B pillar, i would also have likely been seriously injured or killed.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 4:13 pm · (locked)
Gone Premium Member join:2011-01-24 Fort Erie, ON	Gone Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 4:16 pm Visibility isn't an excuse, as you are expected to adjust your driving accordingly to account for such situations. If he couldn't see far enough ahead of him to stop in time, he was either driving way too fast or Quebec designs absolutely terrible roads with pathetic sight lines, which goes back to my speculation about trying to insulate from liability.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 4:16 pm · (locked)
dirtyjeffer0 Posers don't use avatars. Premium Member join:2002-02-21 London, ON	dirtyjeffer0 Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 4:22 pm said by Gone: Visibility isn't an excuse, as you are expected to adjust your driving accordingly to account for such situations. it isn't an excuse, which is why the driver of the car was charged and convicted...that is why you aren't allowed to stop on a highway...stopping in the lane on a corner, creates a blind obstacle that could be unavoidable to hit (which, from Guspaz's comments, another driver almost did too)...it is easier to swerve and panic stop a car than a motorcycle.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 4:22 pm · (locked)
MaynardKrebs We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee. Premium Member join:2009-06-17	MaynardKrebs to zong Premium Member 2014-Jun-20 4:22 pm to zong Tragic as this is, its Darwin at work. He's dead for not paying attention, and she should be banned from driving for life and locked up long enough that she's not given an opportunity to breed. I feel sorry for the loss of the daughter.
	actions · 2014-Jun-20 4:22 pm · (locked)

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