 Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON |
to dirtyjeffer0
Re: Save a Duck Face Criminal Negligence charges (redux)You do realize how small of a distance 30 feet is, right? It's 2x the length of a Dodge Grand Caravan. Hell, my rec room is longer than 30 feet. It's a pathetically small blink of an eye distance at highway speed. Furthermore, you are absolutely allowed to stop on the highway and it happens all the time - traffic, engine trouble, collisions, etc. None of this changes the fact that you as a driver are responsible for controlling your own vehicle to ensure you do not collide with those hazards on the highway.
Now, knowing all this, are you telling me that the motorcyclist did not realize that he had a stopped object in front of him on the highway until he was less than 30 feet away? That's bloody absurd and you know it. If he did, it was due to his own careless and inattentiveness as a driver, not because this woman did something wrong by stopping on the highway when Quebec's subpar design standards did not provide for a shoulder to be utilized. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 4:34 pm · (locked) |
 dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON |
said by Gone:Now, knowing all this, are you telling me that the motorcyclist did not realize that he had a stopped object in front of him on the highway until he was less than 30 feet away? That's bloody absurd and you know it. i never claimed as such...i simply stated that you can't do what she did...i'm not saying it was intentional, i'm not even saying the motorcycle was fully clear of any responsibility...i simply stated that you can't do what she did and the fact she was found guilty, is proof the courts agree. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 4:37 pm · (locked) |
Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON |
Gone
Premium Member
2014-Jun-20 4:40 pm
And as I said earlier, I am firmly of the belief that the only reason they held her criminally responsible was so that the province was able to deflect themselves from civil liability due to poor design standards of the roadway. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 4:40 pm · (locked) |
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Question: Do highways in Quebec typically not have shoulders?
Also, was it ever reported what happened to the ducks? |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 4:43 pm · (locked) |
dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON |
to Gone
said by Gone:And as I said earlier, I am firmly of the belief that the only reason they held her criminally responsible was so that the province was able to deflect themselves from civil liability due to poor design standards of the roadway. i suppose that is one theory, but i think its a stretch. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 4:57 pm · (locked) |
peterboro (banned)Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON |
to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0: ...but you can't stop on a dime, and if the stopped car was "invisible" (due to various conditions mentioned), If you are riding full speed in a situation in which a vehicle could conceivably be "invisible" then you are by default not driving the motorcycle with due diligence and the required speed. As for your situation: what made you think if you make eye contact with a driver they are aware of you? If that's how you drove I think the fact you gave up on bikes relatively early in life may have actually saved your life. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 5:23 pm · (locked) |
JBear
join:2005-02-24
canada |
JBear
Member
2014-Jun-20 5:37 pm
said by peterboro:said by dirtyjeffer0: ...but you can't stop on a dime, and if the stopped car was "invisible" (due to various conditions mentioned), If you are riding full speed in a situation in which a vehicle could conceivably be "invisible" then you are by default not driving the motorcycle with due diligence and the required speed. As for your situation: what made you think if you make eye contact with a driver they are aware of you? If that's how you drove I think the fact you gave up on bikes relatively early in life may have actually saved your life. Point 1: True. I always say drive to the conditions. If there are curves and line of sight issue I always have my foot ready for the brake while driving at a safe speed. But in reality we have to really see the location of the accident to really help figure out anything else. Was there a car or two in front of him who swerved to miss the parked car and he just didn't have time to react (i.e. could've been checking mirrors and/or checking his surroundings). Point 2: either way it's the person exiting the driveway's fault, but from the campaign they had here last year in regards to motorcycle safety... "Don't be dead right". |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 5:37 pm · (locked) |
 Nitra
join:2011-09-15
Montreal
1 edit |
Nitra
Member
2014-Jun-20 6:05 pm
There was no shoulder where this happened, she stopped in the fast lane. » montreal.ctvnews.ca/polo ··· mage.jpgPost accident, they moved her car over. » www.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_ ··· mage.jpg» www.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_ ··· mage.jpg» montreal.ctvnews.ca/polo ··· mage.jpgShe was parked, no hazard lights, nothing. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 6:05 pm · (locked) |
dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON |
there is also a concrete median there, so it is possible that at least half of the car would not be visible as the majority of it would be below the "wall" (this assumes rounding a blind corner). |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 6:16 pm · (locked) |
| dirtyjeffer0 |
to peterboro
said by peterboro:As for your situation: what made you think if you make eye contact with a driver they are aware of you? he looked right at me...twice...there was nothing wrong with the way i drove...i was prepared for his backing out (hence my preparation to brake, he just backed out at the very last second...there was no way to avoid it. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 6:19 pm · (locked) |
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to Nitra
said by Nitra:She was parked, no hazard lights, nothing. Yeah, that's what is bad. Not malicious, but not thinking....! Putting on her hazard lights would have made it safer for all concerned---herself, other drivers, and the ducks. Young people make mistakes---believe me I know this firsthand---but 2 people are dead I'm very torn as to what would constitute a proper punishment. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 6:20 pm · (locked) |
Nitra
join:2011-09-15
Montreal |
Nitra
Member
2014-Jun-20 6:21 pm
Me as well, she didn't intend to kill anyone, but she did, and it was her stupidity that ultimately caused it. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 6:21 pm · (locked) |
dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON |
to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:I'm very torn as to what would constitute a proper punishment. agreed...i don't envy being the one to have to make that decision...the reality is, many lives were ruined that day. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 6:21 pm · (locked) |
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to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:he looked right at me...twice...there was nothing wrong with the way i drove...i was prepared for his backing out (hence my preparation to brake, he just backed out at the very last second...there was no way to avoid it. Unfortunately he can be looking right at you but not "see" you, that is not process it. I have been guilty of that myself. "When we're tired, effectively there's a change in the state of our brain that results in that information just not getting to those centers where we actively, consciously process it," said Sean Meehan, a University of Michigan kinesiology professor. » abcnews.go.com/Health/hi ··· 21098081 |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 6:22 pm · (locked) |
peterboro (banned)Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
1 recommendation |
to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:said by peterboro:As for your situation: what made you think if you make eye contact with a driver they are aware of you? he looked right at me...twice...there was nothing wrong with the way i drove...i was prepared for his backing out (hence my preparation to brake, he just backed out at the very last second...there was no way to avoid it. I'm starting to see a pattern here of you rear ending a truck and blaming it on mysterious ice patches and now blaming the car driver for looking right at you and then backing out. I can just see you whining to the cop at the accident: "But officer they looked right at me, straight into my eyes, twice I tell you, twice!, and then backed up, I just don't understand it, everyone knows if they look into a motorcyclist's eyes then they have to stop, they just have to I tell you". That said I probably would have whacked the car as well...just not as hard.   |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 6:32 pm · (locked) |
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dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON |
i actually didn't even have to talk to the cop...i was taken away in an ambulance...my friend spoke briefly with them, but the driver admitted what happened...i did have to give a statement the next day, but really just to re-cap what they already had/knew...it was pretty apparent from the scene what happened. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 7:12 pm · (locked) |
peterboro (banned)Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON |
peterboro (banned)
Member
2014-Jun-20 8:32 pm
I'm yanking your chain DJ.  |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 8:32 pm · (locked) |
dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
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London, ON |
i know, i saw your emoticons.  |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 9:04 pm · (locked) |
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to Gone
Stopping in the middle of a lane is a higher risk activity. One of the first things I learned about accidents in driver's ed is to get the car off the road or to the right if safe to do so. The premise isn't much different here.
I'm very curious to see what the judge rules for a sentence. I would be hesitant for jail time... but I am struggling to decide what other appropriate sentence would be that balances justice, punishment, reform and deterrent. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 9:15 pm · (locked) |
Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON |
Gone
Premium Member
2014-Jun-20 9:26 pm
And see, when I was in drivers ed they taught us not to move a car after an accident as that can ultimately be used to prove who was at fault. Leave the cars there and wait for the police to tell you to move them. This is less of an issue with cameras everywhere today, but it was a big deal prior to that time.
Probably because, you know, someone should have sufficient care and control of their automobile to be able to avoid a non-moving hazard. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 9:26 pm · (locked) |
 AnavSarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS |
Anav to zong
Premium Member
2014-Jun-20 9:54 pm
to zong
I think your outrageously out to lunch. You are just pissed because the motorcylist and his daughter are also now GONE. Great blaming them when they can no longer defend themselves.
I put myself in his shoes and I would say I would have stood a good chance of hitting the vehicle. The sun was low in the horizon, a women is walking or along side the highway, which could be considered a distraction at a very inopportune moment. The car had no communicating visual cues (no brake lights, no hazard lights etc). Even without the women on the side of the highway, my first reaction would have been WTF. Of course we cant all be like Gilles Gone Villaneuve.
quotes;;;;;;;
Volikakis told court that her husband was not speeding, and was travelling at about 80 to 85 kilometres per hour
Through tears, she said that right before the crash, Roy waved his hands at Czornobaj as if to warn her it was dangerous to be walking along the highway’s narrow shoulder. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 9:54 pm · (locked) |
Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON |
Gone
Premium Member
2014-Jun-20 10:08 pm
It's a tragic and very emotional situation, but that doesn't change the fact that the motorcyclist was the one who collided with a non-moving object, and that the driver didn't hit the brakes until less than 30 feet in front of said object.
Under any other circumstance, the person who rear-ended the non-moving object would be 100% at fault. This entire situation wreaks of hypocrisy if for no reason other than it was a father and daughter on a motorcycle who died. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 10:08 pm · (locked) |
MaynardKrebsWe did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17 |
to Gone
said by Gone:And see, when I was in drivers ed they taught us not to move a car after an accident as that can ultimately be used to prove who was at fault. Leave the cars there and wait for the police to tell you to move them. This is less of an issue with cameras everywhere today, but it was a big deal prior to that time. Don Valley Parkway in Toronto, and I-95 in Florida both have signs that tell you to clear the road of your vehicle for minor accidents. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 10:41 pm · (locked) |
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to Gone
I see it as joint fault which is why I'd hate for her to serve jail time. Ideally you are watching far enough ahead to avoid road hazards. At the same time everyone has a responsibility to minimize being a road hazard. This means not being stopped in lanes when possible.
My driver's ed was much focused on safety first, liability second. Although things are a bit different here in London because we have the police reporting center. Things like fender benders won't even bring a police officer out. You have to go to the reporting centre within 24 hours. Because of this the training is about trading information while not standing at the back of a car lest it be re-ended too. If an accident is serious enough to bring an officer out, it may be too much effort / too dangerous to be moving it on your own. In which case don't sit in the car waiting. Get in on the sidewalk or patch of grass well off the road if possible. This advice may not apply to Canadian winters! |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 10:42 pm · (locked) |
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to graniterock
said by graniterock:Stopping in the middle of a lane is a higher risk activity. One of the first things I learned about accidents in driver's ed is to get the car off the road or to the right if safe to do so. The premise isn't much different here. The current Ontario driver manual says: If the vehicles are drivable, move them as far off the road as possible as this should not affect the police officer’s investigation. This is especially important on busy or high-speed roads where it may be dangerous to leave vehicles in the driving lanes. So in a minor collision with no injuries, if you can “Steer it, Clear it”. If you cannot move the vehicles off the road, set up warning signals or flares far enough away to give other traffic time to slow down or stop. » www.mto.gov.on.ca/englis ··· .8.shtmlI can't access the [Quebec] driver manual without paying money. What a surprise. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 10:49 pm · (locked) |
dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON |
said by PX Eliezer1:The current Ontario driver manual says: If the vehicles are drivable, move them as far off the road as possible as this should not affect the police officer’s investigation. This is especially important on busy or high-speed roads where it may be dangerous to leave vehicles in the driving lanes. So in a minor collision with no injuries, if you can “Steer it, Clear it”. If you cannot move the vehicles off the road, set up warning signals or flares far enough away to give other traffic time to slow down or stop. » www.mto.gov.on.ca/englis ··· .8.shtml i think the bolded part right there is why the driver of the car was found guilty...after reading that statement, it's an open and shut case for me now. the only troubling part left is the sentencing...i have no idea what would be appropriate in terms of balance. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 11:03 pm · (locked) |
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The incident occurred in Quebec though.
Although to me this mainly seems a common sense issue, I don't know how the traffic laws in Quebec may differ, whether or not they have the concept of "last clear chance", etc.
-----
The Quebec driver manual is issued by the official Quebec insurance company SAAQ and they charge for it, even for online access. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 11:21 pm · (locked) |
dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
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London, ON |
it isn't a "law book" though, it is a driver's handbook...it is quite likely those recommendations exist pretty much everywhere...it's just like, you wouldn't stop on the Autobahn to do that...in fact, aside from a mechanical breakdown, you aren't even allowed to stop on it...you even get fined for running out of gas because you aren't allowed to not be moving (accident or mechanical breakdown aside). |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 11:24 pm · (locked) |
Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON |
to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:The current Ontario driver manual says: The drivers manual also says use your high beams to signal a driver, yet if you do it in front of a cop you'll get busted. Ergo, I wouldn't exactly take the word of the drivers manual as the gospel. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 11:24 pm · (locked) |
dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON |
said by Gone:The drivers manual also says use your high beams to signal a driver, yet if you do it in front of a cop you'll get busted. you can fight that and get off...there is nothing illegal about using your high beams to signal a driver...what you can't do, is use alternating lights, as those are reserved for emergency vehicles...i suppose if you were being a dick about it (non-stop flashing of lights), there could be something they could charge you with, but a simple high beam flash is not illegal...i'm sure peterboro can back me up on this one too. |
actions · 2014-Jun-20 11:51 pm · (locked) |
