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Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT

Subaru to lutful

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to lutful

[HVAC] Re: Cooling off 3430 sq.ft

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I was referring to the fans up on the ceiling now..

I don't really understand ERV systems.. it seems it's meant to be used along with something else to condition the air?

I don't think I really posted too much about these fans.. I know looking over all papers and install work orders I know they had a recall on the fans because a bracket can weaken and the fan can come loose and just fall.. And these fans take about 8 min to fully stop turning.

I'm not sure I can do 14 Ft because of the hanging lights 12 might be doable.. but again they might complain over $4300 each for the fan.. I will have a meeting with them.

I know Ikea has BAF in almost all of the stores

Also I see no way to reverse them the controls is just a dial control for the speed and on/off switch.
AsherN
Premium Member
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON

AsherN

Premium Member

Still cheaper than A/C. Also, with A/C, you can't size by SQF for a space like that. You need to calculate by volume.

Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT

Subaru

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I mean down the road they are still going to want to put in AC but just not at this time.. The Big ass fan with 14Ft blades runs in at 98 lbs, I have no clue what the fans up now are but they have to be far less as they are mounted from a electrical box.

The worst thing is to also recirculate stale air.. After around 7PM the temps start dropping to under 70's so something to bring in fresh air would be nice but a ERV while nice sounds like it's going to be another $3500 on top of 2 fans that would be $8600
iknow_t
join:2012-05-03

iknow_t

Member

said by Subaru:

I mean down the road they are still going to want to put in AC but just not at this time.. The Big ass fan with 14Ft blades runs in at 98 lbs, I have no clue what the fans up now are but they have to be far less as they are mounted from a electrical box.

The worst thing is to also recirculate stale air.. After around 7PM the temps start dropping to under 70's so something to bring in fresh air would be nice but a ERV while nice sounds like it's going to be another $3500 on top of 2 fans that would be $8600

you are going to want to hang them lower, too, if you want to feel the air blowing down.. also, on the fans you have now, you have to get up to the fan itself, then move the slider switch to change direction..
lutful
... of ideas
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join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON

lutful to Subaru

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to Subaru
Since weight is a concern, fans with 3-4 fiberglass blades are much lighter than 4-6 metal blades, but cost more. I am shocked at the high prices in USA/Canada, considering Chinese-made 16ft HVLS fans are less than $500 and 24ft less than $1000. You can check Alibaba for shipping cost.

It is really important to bring in sufficient amount of fresh cooled air into any large assembly area. There are very high CFM desiccant-based dehumidifiers which can eliminate the HVLS fans.

You can ask for price of smallest models from Advantix, NovelAire, Munter, etc. Those units are too heavy for shipping from China.

Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT

Subaru to iknow_t

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to iknow_t
The fans now don't have a switch on them.
iknow_t
join:2012-05-03

iknow_t

Member

said by Subaru:

The fans now don't have a switch on them.

you went up on a ladder, and looked on the side of the fan housing?

Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT

Subaru

Premium Member

I called and asked from the people who installed it ROI

Not sure why people expect it to be reversible.. I have all the mail between the former church and ROI about the install and what it would do, they had it installed because the forced air heat vents are not level inside.. One side you have floor radiators and the forced air vents are about 8ft up.

ROI contacted the church to do a follow up (back when using a typewriter was the way to go) and they said people were pleased that they could now feel heat.

while it was OK to use back in the early days it's seen it's time and time to retire them.. The fans are voltage regulated btw.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

2 recommendations

guppy_fish to Subaru

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to Subaru
All the fans will do is blow hot air onto the people, its not a way to cool, its used for getting the heat down as it rises.
iknow_t
join:2012-05-03

iknow_t to Subaru

Member

to Subaru
said by Subaru:

I called and asked from the people who installed it ROI

Not sure why people expect it to be reversible.. I have all the mail between the former church and ROI about the install and what it would do, they had it installed because the forced air heat vents are not level inside.. One side you have floor radiators and the forced air vents are about 8ft up.

ROI contacted the church to do a follow up (back when using a typewriter was the way to go) and they said people were pleased that they could now feel heat.

while it was OK to use back in the early days it's seen it's time and time to retire them.. The fans are voltage regulated btw.

you're still going to need them with that high ceiling in the winter to pull the heat down from the ceiling..

Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT

Subaru

Premium Member

The baf is reversible I asked about that.. I asked about the controls for it as well. My concern is if like he says I need two 12 ft or 14 ft fans 14 ft might be a issue with the hanging lights
lutful
... of ideas
Premium Member
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON

2 recommendations

lutful to guppy_fish

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to guppy_fish
said by guppy_fish:

All the fans will do is blow hot air onto the people, its not a way to cool, its used for getting the heat down as it rises.

A billion people are using only fans to "feel much cooler" at this very moment.

While people just get sleepy/thirsty in hot weather, dairy cows stop producing milk. Cheapest solution is HVLS fans which are most energy efficient. Good explanation for both animals:

Cooling cows efficiently with HVLS fans: »www.progressivedairy.com ··· temid=77

Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT

Subaru

Premium Member

Yep basic evaporation cooling while I agree it does not stop the feeling of being very humid.. I know before at home before I got my window AC I used my dehumidifier to take the humid air out and it ended up feeling much cooler

but since I was just doing my room I had to keep the hot air vented
iknow_t
join:2012-05-03

iknow_t to Subaru

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to Subaru
said by Subaru:

The baf is reversible I asked about that.. I asked about the controls for it as well. My concern is if like he says I need two 12 ft or 14 ft fans 14 ft might be a issue with the hanging lights

can you measure the distance between them? also, putting the fans not directly in line with the lights will give you more clearance..

Subaru
1-3-2-4
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join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT

Subaru

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I would not know until I install them.. I can tell you one thing they can't be in a area where it has flood lights unless you love strobes..

Speaking of that when is Phillips coming out with those cheaper LED BR30's? I sat under about 13 65W Flood lamp that are 18 Ft above and I could feel the radiant heat from them.
lutful
... of ideas
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join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON

lutful to Subaru

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said by Subaru:

... before I got my window AC I used my dehumidifier to take the humid air out and it ended up feeling much cooler

An industrial ERV will provide cooler/drier air which can be distributed through multiple diffusers on a hanging duct. If you choose a model with sufficiently high CFM, you could even eliminate the ceiling fans.

Please check out prices of smallest models of Advantix, NovelAire, Munter, etc. They may cost more than equivalent tonnage air conditioner, but you will save a lot money on electricity during each cooling season.

During the winter heating months, same ERV can provide lower amount of fresh air without removing all the indoor moisture.
iknow_t
join:2012-05-03

iknow_t to Subaru

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said by Subaru:

I would not know until I install them.. I can tell you one thing they can't be in a area where it has flood lights unless you love strobes..

Speaking of that when is Phillips coming out with those cheaper LED BR30's? I sat under about 13 65W Flood lamp that are 18 Ft above and I could feel the radiant heat from them.

I meant the distance between the lights.. if it's a good amount greater than 14 feet, it's good.. as far as the BR30's go, CFL BR30's are good in the meantime, you won't get the heat off them..

Tacky
@74.70.203.x

Tacky to Subaru

Anon

to Subaru
It’s worth considering that at least some will see a BAF as inappropriate in this part of the church.
iknow_t
join:2012-05-03

iknow_t

Member

said by Tacky :

It’s worth considering that at least some will see a BAF as inappropriate in this part of the church.

what? it goes round and round like the circle of life..

Style
@74.70.203.x

Style

Anon

It would depend on the building, that fan would fit in fine in some modern architectural style churches. But look at the soaring wood work.

The space in this church was built to give you a certain feeling when you walked in; having something that changes this or worse attracts attention to it is not what was intended.
This may not be important to you and that’s fine, I just want to let the OP consider that some may not see it that way.

Several smaller fans at a different height may be a better fit.

Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT

Subaru

Premium Member

You do have a point But i really so no other option right now?

btw I took a slow motion and close up of the fan

The slow motion was 1/2 frame rate and the fan was on the highest speed.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· R6jLzDtM

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· r6UoV-Nk

Corehhi
join:2002-01-28
Bluffton, SC

Corehhi to Subaru

Member

to Subaru
Those Big Ass fans work great by the way. I've run into them in non-AC work shops and the biggest one I've ever seen is at The Savannah Sand Gnats stadium. They have 3 that are huge maybe 30 ft across, 95 degrees 80 % humidity and it makes a huge difference.

I don't know the costs of these but ???? »www.bigassfans.com/for-b ··· nprofit/

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

1 recommendation

whizkid3 to iknow_t

MVM

to iknow_t

Re: Cooling off 3430 sq.ft

said by iknow_t:

said by Subaru:

Looks like it's 3 phase 120/208V 400 amps
»Re: What kind/year are these switches

yep, that's what you have..

Nope. The photo shows a single set of 3-phase, 208/120V, 200A current transformers. Assuming these CTs are for the utility service; and this is the only service to the church; then you only have a 200A. Also appears the wiring is only about 200A.

A 208V, 3-phase central HVAC system for a church this size with 400 people, needs about 400A by itself. Don't waste your time here. Unless you have another electric service coming in, you don't have enough electricity. Enough mini-splits for the same amount of cooling are going to draw just as much, if not more. And once these problems are solved, I would suggest getting an architect or engineer who is experienced with these types of issues, to avoid butchering the interior of the church by slapping a bunch of indoor units or duct-work up.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO

nunya

MVM

Nice catch. I don't think I've ever seen CTs on a 200A service (except outdoor "fairgrounds" type stuff).

Yep. No A/C happening here any time soon.

Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT

Subaru

Premium Member

Re: [HVAC] Cooling off 3430 sq.ft

Why is the plate stamped 400A? Where do you see 200A?
LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

LittleBill

Member

individual fuses
JoelC707
Premium Member
join:2002-07-09
Lanett, AL

JoelC707 to Subaru

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The panel may be rated for 400A but just like you can stick a smaller main breaker in a panel, the same is true for this. Go to the first picture you linked here: »Re: What kind/year are these switches and look at the current transformers. The top right of each of their plates says 200A.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

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The CTs are rated at 200A.
Is it me, or do those CT spindles look like they've been hot. Real hot.
For 400A service, you would need 500 or 600 MCM (depending on the situation) or 2 paralleled 4/0 cables (usually).
That cable doesn't appear to be large enough for 400A service.

You can use equipment at a higher rating. However, there should be an OCPD (fuses or breakers) of 200A in that setup.
Example: I use 225A panels all the time on 100A feeders.

Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT

Subaru

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200A seems pretty low for a commercial building built in '63?

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya

MVM

Not really. It's 200A 3 phase. Not the same as 200A single. The year built doesn't mean much. Not much has change with electricity in the last 100 years.
Most places rarely come close to using their allotted power. Has this place been built onto a lot?