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BrettD
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join:2009-12-26
Ottawa, ON

BrettD to Aens

Premium Member

to Aens

Re: Will TekSavvy ever succumb to the "Wal-Mart Effect"

Well, look at Fido (cellular) for interesting customer service. I mention it here in relation to Teksavvy.

"Fido is always here to help. Now you can schedule a Fido Check-In appointment and get up to 30 minutes of one-on-one attention with a representative who's familiar with your account and is ready to answer your questions. It's one more way to show you we care."
»www.fido.ca/web/content/ ··· check_in

Imagine not having to wait and listen to crappy music-on-hold for hours to talk to a TSI rep, but being able to schedule a callback.

What I don't understand is why Fido is doing this. They were supposed to be Rogers low-end-branded cell service but this doesn't seem like minimal customer service to me. And when I've called for service I've always talked with a rep with next-to-no waiting.

Maybe their customers are all loyal like me? I signed up with them (in 1990?) when they were "indie" Microcell Communications and the only guys who sold a monthly service without a contract. (Rogers moved to buy them in 2005. Humbug)

Also, I recently complained to them that they did not reactive my wife's phone promptly. I had called to disabled it when it was misplaced. They forgot to take it off a blacklist after a called to reactivate. But they promptly admitted their error, said it shouldn't have happened and the first-line rep promptly gave me one month credit to make it right. How often is Teksavvy acting like this - a division of Rogers, yet!

I wonder if Rogers knows how their Fido division is treating customers...

B.
BoogaBooga
join:2004-06-12
Canada

BoogaBooga

Member

I remember those days. It was shorty after the City Fido plan that rogers decided to buy them up. $40 for unlimited local calling was unprecedented. Unfortunately, rogers had to ruin it all. Imagine how different things might have been if rogers/telus/bell had to compete on those terms..

jaysona
join:2000-03-22
Montreal, QC
Asus RT-AC68
Linksys WRT1900AC
Asus RT-AC66

jaysona to bbbc

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to bbbc
said by bbbc:

I don't know how old you are, but I still remember when you could talk to a human face to face at a utility company and get shit resolved.

I'm old enough to remember the days of no cable tv, only having one rotary telephone that was mounted to the wall in the kitchen and was owned by Bell. I also remember the days of being able to talk face to face with people to get stuff done - as recently as 5 years ago.
said by bbbc:

Please give me an example of a large call centre that has their shit together.

Not too long ago, had an issue with one of my 4 Virgin Mobile lines, called in, 1st person that answered was clearly clueless, first step to resolving that is HUCA. Second call was better, but the agent soon realized that my issue was beyond their capabilities, put me on a ~4 min hold while I was passed to the engineering team, 2 minutes on the phone with engineering and all was right as rain.

I'd say Virgin Mobile is a fairly large organization - easily on par with TSI - if not bigger, no?
Aens
join:2012-11-09

Aens

Member

Your experience is positive because it was having to do with a technical problem and not a call about cancellation. Try making that call again if you were cancelling Bell Fibe(Bell owns Virgin Mobile) and your experience would most likely be a 180. Companies providing postpaid services are guaranteed to harass customers trying to leave and the cancellation/retention reps are literally written up/fired because they let too many people cancel services per shift.

Teksavvy isn't postpaid so this behavior doesn't help their business at all. Their only problem is being at the mercy of their vendors who are obligated by law to answer their service requests.

chip89
Premium Member
join:2012-07-05
Columbia Station, OH

chip89

Premium Member

You did't hear about the Comcast call?

RizzleQ
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RizzleQ

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That Comcast call was hard to listen to. I almost feel bad for the retention agent because he sounded like his job was on the line to not exceed his quota of cancellations or something.

jaysona
join:2000-03-22
Montreal, QC
Asus RT-AC68
Linksys WRT1900AC
Asus RT-AC66

jaysona to Aens

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to Aens
said by Aens:

Your experience is positive because it was having to do with a technical problem and not a call about cancellation.

I'm not sure how cancellation fits into this thread, but since you brought it up, I'm game to respond.

I have cancelled with Virgin Mobile in the past - three times so far, didn't have any issues with them. They asked why, I told them, then they asked if I'd be okay with a post call follow-up survey, I said sure, and completed it. This was back in early 2010, late 2011 and mid 2012. Between 2008 and present, I have switched 5 numbers back and forth between Virgin Mobile, Fido and Telus 9 times, depending on the new offers. In each case the switch was fairly painless, in one case Fido was at little more insistent on why I was leaving, I just told them I didn't like the fact that they blocked pageonce from being able to get my balance.

As for Bell, I just ported my Montreal & Toronto land lines to Primus - no pain there either, two calls asking why I was changing providers, gave them my answer, they said thank-you.

As for Teksavvy - why do you say they are not postpaid? I pay a bill every month on a pre-determined date for a fixed set of services. That seems to meet the definition of postpaid, no?
jaysona

jaysona to RizzleQ

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to RizzleQ
said by RizzleQ:

That Comcast call was hard to listen to.

The comcast call does not surprise me at all, I had Comcast service for a few years 2006 - 2009 and everytime I called it was a painful experience. I went through a similar experience as the guy in the recording did when I switched to Astound. It's a regional thing though & Astound is really eating into Comcast's pie in the Bay Area.
xdrag
join:2005-02-18
North York, ON

xdrag to Aftcomet

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to Aftcomet
To be fair, TSI's size has grown a lot the past decade and the CSR isn't as "personal" anymore. However, they genuinely do care about their customers and make amends for their mistakes.

But who is to say that in another 10 years, they won't? They might still "care" but the attention for each customer will be less. It's like sharing a piece of pie. The more people, the less there is.

If we knew what would happen in the future, we would all be billionaires.
Aens
join:2012-11-09

2 edits

Aens to jaysona

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to jaysona
said by jaysona:

I'm not sure how cancellation fits into this thread, but since you brought it up, I'm game to respond.

I have cancelled with Virgin Mobile in the past - three times so far, didn't have any issues with them. They asked why, I told them, then they asked if I'd be okay with a post call follow-up survey, I said sure, and completed it. This was back in early 2010, late 2011 and mid 2012. Between 2008 and present, I have switched 5 numbers back and forth between Virgin Mobile, Fido and Telus 9 times, depending on the new offers. In each case the switch was fairly painless, in one case Fido was at little more insistent on why I was leaving, I just told them I didn't like the fact that they blocked pageonce from being able to get my balance.

As for Bell, I just ported my Montreal & Toronto land lines to Primus - no pain there either, two calls asking why I was changing providers, gave them my answer, they said thank-you.

As for Teksavvy - why do you say they are not postpaid? I pay a bill every month on a pre-determined date for a fixed set of services. That seems to meet the definition of postpaid, no?

I bring up cancellations because calling in about a technical support problem doesn't hit teksavvy on the bottom line necessarily. It is factored in as the cost of doing business. Helping the customer get the service they pay for is much different than letting a customer switch away from you to a competitor. It isn't like Teksavvy has to re-coup infrastructure costs and continue maintenance on unused infrastructure. Teksavvy doesn't really have much to lose if you leave them.

Postpaid is for services where you are billed after the month is over where as Teksavvy is prepaid (you can see it on the invoice). To the consumer, there is no difference but to the actual business model, its gigantic.

Port out isn't retentions either. It isn't like they can convince you not to move just so you stay with the company. There is a reason code that absolves the rep of the cancellation ding.

Early Virgin Mobile is also no problem as the pre-Bell business model was no contracts and the Tab method of handset economic inducement. Wireless non contract(month to month) customers aren't necessarily cancellations as there is no commitment and government regulations concerning ECF and DSRF have limited the scope.

Simply put, it sounds like you are a customer that doesn't sign contracts and avoids contract based businesses. There is nothing at all wrong about that, but a large majority of Canadian internet consumers are on contracts, or have it bundled with cable tv/landline/cellphone.

I doubt they will confirm it, but I'm going to guess that Churn isn't a focused metric for Teksavvy. They are probably still focused only on growth and ARPU. There is also the fact that Teksavvy makes their customers pay for the hardware upfront and doesn't provide warranty services beyond the mfgr warranty. Teksavvy's only expense for each new customer is their marketing budget and their staff(for vendor provided internet). Right now for the last couple years, for the big three (and for Comcast), the buzzword has been Churn. It costs far more money to gain a customer than it is to keep a customer(mostly opposite for teksavvy). However, in corporate bizzaro world, it has boiled down to just simply don't let customers quit.

It is why Teksavvy doesn't behave like the big three but once that changes; once Teksavvy gets big enough to have churn affect their profit margin, then you'll see big changes. This all leads back into the first page about whether or not Teksavvy is even capable of being that big(answer is not with their current business model).

jaysona
join:2000-03-22
Montreal, QC
Asus RT-AC68
Linksys WRT1900AC
Asus RT-AC66

2 edits

jaysona

Member

said by Aens:

Postpaid is for services where you are billed after the month is over where as Teksavvy is prepaid (you can see it on the invoice). To the consumer, there is no difference but to the actual business model, its gigantic.

~30 days prior or ~30 days after services have been rendered shouldn't make all that much of a difference, if it does, then there is something wrong with the business model. I always expect my customers to pay anywhere between ~90 days and ~180 days after deliver of services, it's just that type of business and I make sure I don't die because of it. So the pre/post is not something I buy into because I live it on a daily basis and know that it can easily be managed. I also fire my worst customers on a quarterly basis.

Port out isn't retentions either. It isn't like they can convince you not to move just so you stay with the company. There is a reason code that absolves the rep of the cancellation ding.

How is port out not like a cancellation? Services from one provider are moved to a different provider, there is no physical address change of any sort. I just decide one day to stop paying money to Bell and decide to pay less (for same level of service with more features) to Primus, or stop paying Fido and pay Telus instead. To me this seems like a cancellation to Bell and Fido, no?

Early Virgin Mobile is also no problem as the pre-Bell business model was no contracts and the Tab method of handset economic inducement. Wireless non contract(month to month) customers aren't necessarily cancellations as there is no commitment and government regulations concerning ECF and DSRF have limited the scope.

I first signed up with Virgin Mobile in 2008 when they offered their unlimited data plan (still have it) and I have never had a tab or contract. I have always been month to month and will always pay month to month for all my services. Month-to-month customers that move are cancellations, since it is an immediate cessation of revenue and does impact the bottom line. Contract based customers allow the companies to "book" a certain level of revenue for each month/quarter/year and base their expenditures on those "booked" numbers.

I have found that being month-to-month has made the companies work a little harder to keep me. Every quarter or so I call in ask for retentions and ask them what they're willing to offer up to keep me from going somewhere else. This is only advantageous when another carrier is offering some sort of good limited deal though.

Simply put, it sounds like you are a customer that doesn't sign contracts and avoids contract based businesses.

Yes, been that way since 1997.

There is nothing at all wrong about that, but a large majority of Canadian internet consumers are on contracts, or have it bundled with cable tv/landline/cellphone.

Sadly, those contract based people are also the first to complain, instead of doing their homework and finding better long term methods of getting their services. I have little sympathy or time for those who don't take the time to "edumacate" themselves on the available options.

There is also the fact that Teksavvy makes their customers pay for the hardware upfront and doesn't provide warranty services beyond the mfgr warranty.

I think this is probably one of the better things TSI does, I'm all for having to buy things outright - if you can't afford it, then don't get it.

It is why Teksavvy doesn't behave like the big three but once that changes; once Teksavvy gets big enough to have churn affect their profit margin, then you'll see big changes. This all leads back into the first page about whether or not Teksavvy is even capable of being that big(answer is not with their current business model).

I think this is where we diverge (great -maybe?) on our opinions re: the topic of this thread. I have been with TSI for 10 years now, and remember - fondly - the gold ole days of yester-year.

I agree with you that TSI is nowhere the same size in terms of revenue/valuation/customer base, however, to me, TSI *feels* like any of the other big telecom companies when I have to deal with their CSRs on the phone.

Oddly enough, just last week I had an interaction with Primus (both CSR & engineering) and after the call I had the same feeling as I used to have when dealing with TSI "back in the day"
btech805
join:2013-08-01
Canada

btech805

Member

That's funny, as a Bell tech, I find primus has the longest wait time and the worst CSRs when I am trying to help one of their subscribers sort out an issue on their end (which I don't have to do btw). Where as TSI, usually we wait on hold a few mins and issues are resolved quickly and the CSRs are actually properly trained to be educated in what they are talking about or at least who to talk to.
Aens
join:2012-11-09

Aens to jaysona

Member

to jaysona
said by jaysona:

How is port out not like a cancellation? Services from one provider are moved to a different provider, there is no physical address change of any sort. I just decide one day to stop paying money to Bell and decide to pay less (for same level of service with more features) to Primus, or stop paying Fido and pay Telus instead. To me this seems like a cancellation to Bell and Fido, no?

My apologies. I misunderstood your Montreal&Toronto lines as you moved from one to another.

Did you contact Bell before the port out stating you were intending to do so? That is when you'd get the big pitch and the abusive cancellation policies if your business with them was above a certain threshold.

If you had already ported out(the system is mostly automated) there is actually nothing the rep can do at that point. ILEC skips the cancellation process and the only thing you would have to do at that point is return any outstanding equipment and pay the final bill.

jaysona
join:2000-03-22
Montreal, QC
Asus RT-AC68
Linksys WRT1900AC
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jaysona to btech805

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to btech805
said by btech805:

That's funny, as a Bell tech, I find primus has the longest wait time and the worst CSRs when I am trying to help one of their subscribers sort out an issue on their end (which I don't have to do btw).

Well, I guess I must have been lucky then. The issue I had was due to the switch and something Bell had done which caused my Toronto Internet service to go down - I came home to the dreaded solid red on the SmartRG.

Called TSI was asked to jump through hoops, one of the hoops being to confirm the type of service I was on from Primus, the TSI tech refused to believe I was not on a digital service. *sigh*

Called Primus, I was speaking with a CSR within 3 minutes or so, and engineering a few minutes later and had my answers within 5 minutes or so.

Called back TSI gave them the info and was told I had to be home for a tech. visit - even though I knew the issue was on the Bell end and was probably a line card change that needed to be made. Tried to explain this to the TSI CSR - he wasn't hearing any of it.

Where as TSI, usually we wait on hold a few mins and issues are resolved quickly and the CSRs are actually properly trained to be educated in what they are talking about or at least who to talk to.

My last few interactions with TSI CSRs have been less than stellar, many had any clue what MLPPP was, two even tried to convince me that TSI didn't offer MLPPP, only VDSL2. I have noticed a massive decline in the knowledge of the TSI CSRs over the past few year - coincidentally as the company grew...hmmmm.......

Today it seems like the CSRs have a script to follow - which I am fine with to a certain extent - but they are (appear to be) clueless when it comes to the purpose behind the script and how a couple of simple questions can rule out having to follow 80% of the script. To me that indicates a lack of knowledge about the products/services offered and how to deal with the basic troubleshooting of the products/services when issues arise.
Aens
join:2012-11-09

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Aens

Member

Well trained and knowledgeable people typically demand higher pay. You can only pay them with higher ARPU services. Welcome to capitalism.

»i.imgur.com/Eobyb01.png
Wheemer8
join:2005-11-30
L3S0B7

Wheemer8

Member

TSI certainly does ask you to jump through hoops when you have an issue. 90% of the bull they ask for is irrelevant and just more needless work for the customer.

Because of speed issues they ask me to leave my router disconnected until the issue is resolved, yeah right!!! Like I'm going to bring down my whole house internet just so they can fix the problem.

RizzleQ
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RizzleQ

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said by Wheemer8:

TSI certainly does ask you to jump through hoops when you have an issue. 90% of the bull they ask for is irrelevant and just more needless work for the customer.

Because of speed issues they ask me to leave my router disconnected until the issue is resolved, yeah right!!! Like I'm going to bring down my whole house internet just so they can fix the problem.

It's really the incumbent provider asking TSI those high number of absurd questions you speak of. TSI has no choice but to pass them along to you.
Wheemer8
join:2005-11-30
L3S0B7

Wheemer8

Member

But yet when I was with Rogers they never asked for all this

Calero27
join:2014-01-13
Chatham, ON

Calero27

Member

Rogers has access to all the tools so most of it can be skipped. Basically TSI needs to prove to Rogers there is an issue by providing the information they request before they will take a look at it. No proof no action from Rogers.

RizzleQ
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RizzleQ to Wheemer8

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to Wheemer8
said by Wheemer8:

But yet when I was with Rogers they never asked for all this

That's because, as a first party provider, they have a whole host of tools at their disposal to use in real-time. Third party providers are given zero tools from Rogers to use, therefore the number of questions increases as well as the ridiculousness level of said questions.

jaysona
join:2000-03-22
Montreal, QC
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jaysona to Aens

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to Aens
said by Aens:

My apologies. I misunderstood your Montreal&Toronto lines as you moved from one to another.

No worries, many people find it unexpected that I have more than one regular residence. It makes for some interesting and confusing conversations at times - such as this one.

Did you contact Bell before the port out stating you were intending to do so?

Oh gawd no! I know much better than to ever call the company that service is being switched from. Plus, I have had plenty of experience with number portability, I was among the first to port a number in the U.S. - which had number portability a few years before Canada. I know it's an automated process and that the company where service is being ported to takes care of dealing with the company where service is being ported from. Plus the nice CSR at Priimus advised me not to call Bell.

That is when you'd get the big pitch and the abusive cancellation policies if your business with them was above a certain threshold.

I did receive a few calls from Bell, in one VM the rep seemed quite desperate to get a hold of me. When I did call they tried to convince me to stay, offered quite the discount for a year too, but I politely declined. When asked why, I told them I was tired of all the telemarketing calls and that Primus has the great call blocking and call screening feature. The rep had no knowledge about this feature, I explained how it worked and relished in the ~4 seconds or so of silence - speechless rep. They thanked me, and of course said I can always switch if I want, I said I'll keep that in mind. I haven't heard from them since.
jaysona

jaysona to Aens

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to Aens
said by Aens:

Well trained and knowledgeable people typically demand higher pay. You can only pay them with higher ARPU services. Welcome to capitalism

I have no problem with that, I agree with it actually, because I have found it actually reduces costs. Money isn't the issue, personnel retention is the issue. I'll pay more if it means I can spend less time talking to a more knowledgeable rep which ultimately leads to a shorter call time and speedier resolution of the problem.

Time is money, the more time I spend on the phone dealing with something I shouldn't really have to be dealing with, the less money I am making.

As for your comic - I'm all too familiar with the underlying message it conveys. I am happy to say I have never spent one penny at Walmart, Target, etc.

I know how their business model works and how that business model ultimately has a negative impact on local and regional economies. *sigh*
jaysona

jaysona to RizzleQ

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to RizzleQ
said by RizzleQ:

That's because, as first party provider, they have a whole host of tools at their disposal to use in real-time. Third party providers are given zero tools from Rogers to use, therefore the questions go up.

That is one of the main reasons why I stuck with DSL (MLPPPx3) for many years after higher speed cable was available - I knew that any service issues would be a huge PIA to deal with, plus the lack of static IPs & subnets - although I do have easy ways around that limitation.

When speaking with TSI in the early days, it just seemed like they had access to most tools needed to diagnose any DSL service issues.

Calero27
join:2014-01-13
Chatham, ON

Calero27 to Wheemer8

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to Wheemer8
said by Wheemer8:

Because of speed issues they ask me to leave my router disconnected until the issue is resolved, yeah right!!! Like I'm going to bring down my whole house internet just so they can fix the problem.

Rogers will stop an investigation if they see a router MAC address connected to your modem and will ask TSI to have you disconnect and re-test everything.

It sucks but until the independents get access to some of those fancy Rogers tools that is the way it will most likely stay.

RizzleQ
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RizzleQ to jaysona

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to jaysona
said by jaysona:

When speaking with TSI in the early days, it just seemed like they had access to most tools needed to diagnose any DSL service issues.

TSI actually has a bit more tools today than the early days of DSL to diagnose and repair DSL issues. That's one pro for DSL, for sure.

chip89
Premium Member
join:2012-07-05
Columbia Station, OH

chip89 to RizzleQ

Premium Member

to RizzleQ
That's because it is. »consumerist.com/2014/07/ ··· -normal/
cepnot4me
join:2013-10-29
L0C 1K0

cepnot4me to Calero27

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to Calero27
I have access to most (if not all) of those tools. The tools primarily used are our Tier 2. Aside from headed tools, but I doubt head end deals with many TSI tickets.
We check.
On a neighborhood level (looking at the node).
Modem specs for ALL customers. (If everyone's levels stink, or everyone is offline, we got a problem at the node.

Flapping. We will check the "hits" every modem has taken.

Utilization (upstream/downstream).

Noise, noise graphs and trends.

I can't see MAC addresses of connected devices. And correct me if I'm wrong, Rogers would need to know the difference between a router MAC address and a computer MAC. I doubt they do.

The problem with Cable Rogers or TSI customers, most problems are intermittent. (Packet loss, connectivity).

Most of the tools are real time, not ongoing. I can see how long you're modem has been online for, but not how long it was online for before the last reset.

I've got big issues with my DSL, I went through tech supports steps 3 times now with TSI (3hours I'll never get back). When I'm done being lazy, I'm going to refuse testing, demand a tech. I've known from day one my DSL issue is probably a drop fault, I know it's not in my house. I'm not going over all the testing steps again.

Packet loss. Intermittent. Send a tech.
I think (since it's a potential cost for me) TSI will skip the steps, send the tech.
xdrag
join:2005-02-18
North York, ON

xdrag to Calero27

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to Calero27
said by Calero27:

said by Wheemer8:

Because of speed issues they ask me to leave my router disconnected until the issue is resolved, yeah right!!! Like I'm going to bring down my whole house internet just so they can fix the problem.

Rogers will stop an investigation if they see a router MAC address connected to your modem and will ask TSI to have you disconnect and re-test everything.

It sucks but until the independents get access to some of those fancy Rogers tools that is the way it will most likely stay.

um... how do they know what device it is from the MAC. MAC look-up shows only manufacturer. If anything, I would just spoof my computer's MAC from my router.

99% of the case it's not the router. The odd time it is, you can tell by testing with and w/o the router.

RizzleQ
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RizzleQ

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said by xdrag:

said by Calero27:

said by Wheemer8:

Because of speed issues they ask me to leave my router disconnected until the issue is resolved, yeah right!!! Like I'm going to bring down my whole house internet just so they can fix the problem.

Rogers will stop an investigation if they see a router MAC address connected to your modem and will ask TSI to have you disconnect and re-test everything.

It sucks but until the independents get access to some of those fancy Rogers tools that is the way it will most likely stay.

um... how do they know what device it is from the MAC. MAC look-up shows only manufacturer. If anything, I would just spoof my computer's MAC from my router.

99% of the case it's not the router. The odd time it is, you can tell by testing with and w/o the router.

They don't know 100% if it's a router or not, they just assume router based on manufacturer. It's so much more likely that "D-Link Corporation", "Cisco-Linksys, LLC", "CISCO SYSTEMS, INC.", "NETGEAR Inc", "TP-LINK TECHNOLOGIES CO.,LTD.", "Belkin Corporation" are routers than Ethernet cards... but they're still assuming, which is lame... but then that's Rogers for you.