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MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

Wind network hit hard by rainstorm in Toronto

@ 2100MHz, a heavy rainstorm will play havoc with reception.

This is just one of the reasons why Wind needed 700MHz.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

Won't be any worse for any of the other providers in the GTA, as capacity kills 850MHz making 1900MHz necessary and they still primarily use AWS for LTE anyway.
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

yyzlhr to MaynardKrebs

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to MaynardKrebs
Any verified reports of problems? My Rogers phone which only supports AWS LTE has had no issues so far and it's coming down pretty hard around here. My Wind friends are not reporting issues either.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

A whole bunch of people I know using Wind (various phone models) were down intermittently during the heaviest part of the rain storm. They were generally, but not exclusively, located in the Bloor to Lawrence corridor on both sides of Yonge St.

I was down for about 5 mins,

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

That most likely would have been due to backhaul issues, not anything like rainfade.

WiFiguru
To infinity... and beyond
Premium Member
join:2005-06-21
Seattle, WA

1 edit

WiFiguru

Premium Member

said by Gone:

That most likely would have been due to backhaul issues, not anything like rainfade.

+1

I don't think rainfade is a big issue until 7Ghz+

EDIT: Wind might be using microwave backhaul over 7Ghz. If this is the case, it would cause problems in heavy rain. Just a hunch.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

Their microwave backhauls operate in the 3-4Ghz range. And even then, you don't have much microwave backhaul in the GTA as there is plenty of Allstream fibre.

elitefx
join:2011-02-14
London, ON

elitefx to WiFiguru

Member

to WiFiguru
Geez I hope the loons at Rogers don't read this thread. Instead of blaming customer hardware for their multitude of network issues they'll be claiming the internet is down due to an act of God..........
OHSrob
join:2011-06-08

OHSrob to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
The most likely reason you were experiencing issues is because the point to point links between the towers are licensed and around 18ghz.

These frequencys don't handle rain very nicely as water is opaque to them and rain fade must be properly engineered in the link budget.

I doubt AWS would suffer more then 1 or 2 dBm of extra path loss even through wet trees.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

39Ghz actually, at least according to Spectrum Direct (which is why I thought it was 4ghz before, too many digits). They have 18ghz stuff in BC but everywhere else it's 39.

But seriously - why would they be using a microwave backhaul in an urban area that should have easy access to fibre?
OHSrob
join:2011-06-08

OHSrob

Member

said by Gone:

39Ghz actually, at least according to Spectrum Direct (which is why I thought it was 4ghz before, too many digits). They have 18ghz stuff in BC but everywhere else it's 39.

But seriously - why would they be using a microwave backhaul in an urban area that should have easy access to fibre?

39ghz ouch, just ouch.

I would imagine from the price of their service a $2500/mo+ 100megabit optical Ethernet connection at all of their sites would be entirely unprofitable. Plus you can drop a microwave link in an afternoon if its already licensed. Bell can also take the better part of a year to get a circuit installed and provisioned. For many sites they would probably need a full gigabit.

Bell brings 20 gigabits into their wireless sites via fiber. The ptp microwave links they use when they can't get an optical circuit in are also all properly engineered to function in our climant conditions.

The large company's also all have large battery banks (I'm talking a thousand amp hours + at 48V) and stand by generators at pretty much all sites.

They have multimillions of dollars tied up at each site.

It would be unrealistic to expect the same level of service from a company with the price point of wind.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

said by OHSrob:

I would imagine from the price of their service a $2500/mo+ 100megabit optical Ethernet connection at all of their sites would be entirely unprofitable. Plus you can drop a microwave link in an afternoon if its already licensed. Bell can also take the better part of a year to get a circuit installed and provisioned. For many sites they would probably need a full gigabit.

They buy their fibre from Allstream, not Bell. I know they use microwave on the rural sites (e.g. Highway 3 at the S-bend) but in urban/suburban areas they should have easy - and cheap - access to fibre.

PARRK
@207.219.39.x

PARRK to OHSrob

Anon

to OHSrob
I suspect it's not pricepoint of Wind that hampers it's ability to overengineer its network, but the sheer cost of capital.

Wind is looking at 10-20% interest rates or more on any financing it can get, so payoffs have to be fast.

Bell can just issue a bond for a few percent and can pay-off its investments over decades and still pull a profit.

Of course, you could conclude the rates are so high because the rates are so low, but it got me to switch!
Expand your moderator at work

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to PARRK

Premium Member

to PARRK

Re: Wind network hit hard by rainstorm in Toronto

said by PARRK :

I suspect it's not pricepoint of Wind that hampers it's ability to overengineer its network, but the sheer cost of capital.

Wind is looking at 10-20% interest rates or more on any financing it can get, so payoffs have to be fast.

Bell can just issue a bond for a few percent and can pay-off its investments over decades and still pull a profit.

Of course, you could conclude the rates are so high because the rates are so low, but it got me to switch!

Considering that we're experiencing a period of record low interest rates, I find it difficult to believe that even Globalive and their financial backers would be paying interest rates as high as one would pay for a consumer credit card to build their network. Do you have a source for this claim?
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

What interest rate would you demand from somebody if they are subject to 'political risk' which could cripple their business at the uttering of a half-cocked minister, especially if your investment isn't the most senior secured loan?

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

said by MaynardKrebs:

What interest rate would you demand from somebody if they are subject to 'political risk' which could cripple their business at the uttering of a half-cocked minister, especially if your investment isn't the most senior secured loan?

The loans for building out the network are asset backed and would be considered secured credit if the company ever went into receivership. Knowing this, the interest rate is going to be lower than a credit card that they would give to a single mother working for minimum wage, that's for sure.