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JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

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JMJimmy to GeorgeBurger

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Re: vMedia - I've made a huge mistake, full story.

said by GeorgeBurger:

First, our approach to dealing with negative comments may be different from some of our competitors, but only some comments. I am pretty sure that if one gets beyond the self-imposed limitations of confirmation bias, one would see that almost all of our responses to negative comments and reviews are, quite appropriately, apologetic, helpful and sympathetic.

Respectfully, taking an honest step back, can you see how this type of comment is exactly the the criticism being leveled? You accuse confirmation bias rather than accepting the constructive criticism for what it is.

Putting your assertion to the test:

»User reviews - VMedia All Reviews commented on:
krbrownca -attacked/insulted, W2PN
vmediasucks - CDM
ronanicich - attacked/insulted, W2PN
dxchow500 - solid
EvanH - CDM
katsch - ok but definitely not "apologetic, helpful and sympathetic"
rufusq - CDM, blame
nmunro (sub of rufusq) - embarrasses/attacks/attempts to discredit, W2PN
m237b - CDM
sharpshooter - CDM
Scalu - ok
rminkhorst - solid
disappointed (sub of insid) - solid

3 attacked/W2PN
5 CDM
2 ok
3 solid

W2PN = wanted to post notes/more detail. This highlights the fact that you are concerned with reputation - wanting to "inform" them of how [insert derogative] your customer is and how justified your response is. Probably the worst PR/service approach you could take with these customers short of posting it anyway.

CDM = cognitive distortion minimization. Phrases like "your experience is not typical" or "as you can see from comments..." puts customers on the defensive as if they must justify their problem. The effect of these comments also makes it seem as though the company's reputation/average experience somehow absolves responsibility for or minimizes the problem that specific customer is having.

From my perspective - 5 were handled well, 8 could have been handled better.

By example, just an excerpt, taking this comment:

I'm amazed by the number of unhappy reviews compared to Mixed and Happy

And having this reaction:
said by GeorgeBurger:

your reference to the prepoderance of Unhappy reviews to Mixed and Happy doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny. As you yourself can see, our favourable reviews outnumber our unfavourable reviews almost three to one.

Not only is it not important to address, as it does nothing to solve the customer's issue, it was a subjective statement by the customer. No claims where being made about the quantity simply his amazement at the number comparatively. Instead of "protecting your reputation" you make people like me ask what's the truth? Truth is you're right 3:1 ratio exactly - unfortunately that ratio is the second worst of the Canadian IISPs (with 6m ratings) on DSLR , as is the 6 month rating. The tech support rating is the worst among all ISPs (with 6m ratings) including the incumbents. Something to consider moving forward.
said by GeorgeBurger:

However, we will not accept the perpetuation of mistruths and exaggerations, especially when accompanied by insults to our dedicated team. .... In those cases where we push back, there is a reason. .... Those that exhibit egregious behaviour are few and far between, even on this board, and while we would definitely be grateful for the opportunity to continue to serve them, we will not do so at any price

No one is suggesting you should continue nor that they are somehow justified for treating anyone that way. The only question I would ask you is do you want your company to be perceived as one that willingly and publicly calls its customers:

*To be 100% clear, terms in quotes were used, otherwise they are MY terms to summarize comments made
- entitled
- "less than credible"
- vengeful
- dishonest
- deceptive
- "discourteous"
- liars
- "uncooperative"
- scheming

Even if they were every one of those things there's no upside to calling them out like that.

Take my comments for what you will - it's intended as constructive criticism/an outside perspective with no stake. Hopefully something good can come of it.

Cheers

HenryA
join:2011-05-28

HenryA to TypeS

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Lighten up Francis.

I'm not upset in the slightest. I ask a question, you get your underwear in a bunch.

If you're a CSR, I pity the guy on the other end if he asks a simple question if that's your attitude.

I guess irony is totally lost on you huh?

TypeS
join:2012-12-17
London, ON

TypeS

Member

said by HenryA:

Lighten up Francis.

I'm not upset in the slightest. I ask a question, you get your underwear in a bunch.

Uh dude, you made a comments like "why post if you're not a VMedia customer". The only one with his panties in a bunch is you.

So take a breather.

bluebaron2
Stuff Happens
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join:2001-02-01
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bluebaron2

Mod

Both of you drop it please.
Expand your moderator at work
koreyb
Open the Canadian Market NOW
join:2005-01-08
Etobicoke, ON

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Re: vMedia - I've made a huge mistake, full story.

I have been very hesitant in posting on this thread.... But I will say there are good and bad in regards to customer service with Vmedia.

They have some GREAT people, like Matthew, George, and a few others, that I have found very knowledgeable, know what's going on, and get to the heart of issues immediately.

There is some who I've been told are fairly new that just don't seem to have the training yet to know what is need in abnormal situations that are outside of the standard support/customer service problems. I have more respect for people who admit they don't know and need to ask someone else, than faking it, and 2 out of the newer people on the phones/online chat in my experience would not admit this, and didn't go ask. Had I not been more technically savvy to know better, I would have just accepted what they said, but once I was able to get to Matthew, and a few of the more experienced people, they straightened things out.

I could say this for any company not just Vmedia. I've experienced this with Rogers, Teksavvy, 3web, etc. etc. personally.

Vmedia being a new start up is going to have some bumps along the way. I have had small issues with sync (audio and video) on some channels, which was fixed very quickly by calling Vmedia. I find if there is bad weather through Toronto, this is when the issues with Sync seem to happen the most. It may be related to signal drop outs from their channel provider (Shaw Direct/Bell TV etc)

I would only suggest once Vmedia gets going that they have someone offering overnight tech support for TV, or at least until 2am, because there has been issues that happen past 9pm where I know they could be fixed in seconds, but with no one there, it was left unfixed until the next day. With Majority of people who watch tv between 8pm and 12am, this can be problematic.

Overall, it's been a great service... Majority of issues happen on the END USER NETWORK, where things fall apart. The system is very flawed, and there needs to be accountability by the end user network providers to ensure all customers are treated equally, and timely.

Vmedia is the customer of their end user network, and they should get the same treatment and service they give to their own direct customers. The CRTC needs to ensure this happens, and it an issue with every IISP.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

said by koreyb:

VMedia is the customer of their [the various incumbents'] end user network[s], and they should get the same treatment and service [which] they [the incumbents hopefully] give to their own direct customers.

The CRTC needs to ensure that this happens, and it [is] an issue with every IISP.

 
That summary needed to be emphasized, IMNSHO.

If THAT single issue was ever fixed, almost all of the other problems would either never happen, or would be solved before anyone's goat got got.
Domili
join:2014-04-13
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said by JMJimmy:

Probably the best example of what I'm talking about comes from TSI-Andre: »Review of TekSavvy DSL by unavailable

Shits happens... But I'm really impressed with how he handled the situation. When things go wrong you hope to deal with someone like this guy.
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

JMJimmy

Member

said by Domili:

said by JMJimmy:

Probably the best example of what I'm talking about comes from TSI-Andre: »Review of TekSavvy DSL by unavailable

Shits happens... But I'm really impressed with how he handled the situation. When things go wrong you hope to deal with someone like this guy.

Andre is a rockstar - I specifically wanted a TSI example because it would not have been fair to ignore the shit that happens with other companies. Initially he did botch that particular situation. Your first interaction with someone should not start off with "We want to ... make sure we improve ourselves". It's always about them first. Then you never take an accusatory tone with someone like he did with "you essentially tell us to shove it" "if you truly care". If there's something worth accusing, the police should be handling it, otherwise it's more important to deescalate the situation to resolve it quickly and with as little stress as possible.
JMJimmy

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or you could go a completely different direction... »cheezburger.com/8264313856

nekkidtruth
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said by JMJimmy:

W2PN = wanted to post notes/more detail. This highlights the fact that you are concerned with reputation - wanting to "inform" them of how [insert derogative] your customer is and how justified your response is. Probably the worst PR/service approach you could take with these customers short of posting it anyway.

This is where I lost all interest in what seemed like a rather well thought out post.

I think it's absolutely brilliant that complainers are called out on their lies, bending of the truth and purposely left out tidbits that skew reality. More companies should do this out in the real world. The reality is, "the customer is always right" no longer exists. It's unfortunate yes, but it's reality. We can thank all of the liars and cheaters out there who want everything for nothing. It's absolutely in a company's best interest to show that you won't put up with that crap. Especially in a public forum that highlights these services to the public.

All that aside, customer/technical support representatives should be thoroughly trained and should never engage in this type of "calling out". That's what supervisor's and people in George's position are for.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
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join:2009-06-15
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Davesnothere

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Customer is NOT Always Right

said by nekkidtruth:

....I think it's absolutely brilliant that complainers are called out on their lies, bending of the truth, and purposely left out tidbits that skew reality. More companies should do this out in the real world.

The reality is [that the old saying] "the customer is always right" no longer exists.

It's unfortunate yes, but it's reality. We can thank all of the liars and cheaters out there who want everything for nothing. It's absolutely in a company's best interest to show that you won't put up with that crap. Especially in a public forum that highlights these services to the public.

All that aside, customer/technical support representatives should be thoroughly trained and should never engage in this type of "calling out". That's what supervisor's and people in George's position are for.

 
I operated a computer service and sales store for 15 or so years, and my conclusion as more time passed was identical to yours, even when dealing with folks face-to-face.

Granted, some did not understand the full nature of the problem(s) with their computers when seeking a repair (even a paid repair), and would omit stuff which would have made my job easier (and which often I discovered during the wee hours while doing the diagnosis and the repair).

But others, even when asked directly by me up-front, left out stuff which was crucial for me to know, such as the info that someone else had first tried to solve the problem and failed (and often made it worse and/or created one or more additional problems, so that we end up with layered problems hiding behind one another).

And when I would tell them that I had discovered this had happened, they might say something like "Oh, I forgot about that", or "I didn't think that it mattered".

I would then have to explain "But if the consequence of your withholding info costs me more time to fix your computer, sir or ma'm, then it will usually cost you more money, so you see it DOES matter".

The same mindset can be applied to telephone-based (or online chat-based) tech support, which BTW, I view as a thankless profession, on the average, because if the user withholds valuable info, it impairs/impedes the already disadvantaged (due to not being there) tech from carrying out their job properly, as scripts - and even experience and intuition - only go so far.
vortex05
join:2010-12-16
Toronto, ON

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Re: vMedia - I've made a huge mistake, full story.

said by Fergless:


I don't believe Vmedia uses Distributel. Zazeen does though

if I remember correctly VMedia uses the same network as CikTel.

In a similar fashion Acanac is on Distributel for network.

Fergless
Premium Member
join:2008-04-19
Toronto, ON

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Fergless

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said by vortex05:

said by Fergless:


I don't believe Vmedia uses Distributel. Zazeen does though

if I remember correctly VMedia uses the same network as CikTel.

In a similar fashion Acanac is on Distributel for network.

Yes Vmedia does use CikTel, not to be confused with Xinflix which Zazeen does use as an agent.

For Acanac/Distributel/Xinflix, yes indeed, all 3. Bell of course for DSL.
GeorgeBurger
join:2011-12-30

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I'm not worthy....(bowing, scraping).....
GeorgeBurger

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Things a little slow, Fergless?

ZazeenSAKS
@108.168.17.x

ZazeenSAKS

Anon

Fergless, it is an open forum, of course, everybody's opinion is welcome, of course, but, dude ... you should really leave this to VMedia & George at this time, as (i think) he is the only one from VMedia on this forum.

You are not helping him, you are not helping affected customer, and of course, you are not helping yourself or Zazeen. (after reading you - and all of your topics here, i would never spend a cent to Zazeen or Acanac)

Fergless
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Toronto, ON

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Distributel Statement

"ZazeenSAKS"

Merely correcting an error made by a member on here, nothing more.
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

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Re: vMedia - I've made a huge mistake, full story.

said by nekkidtruth:

The reality is, "the customer is always right" no longer exists.

I never said any such thing. The customer is *often* wrong. My point was that, given the fact that they are wrong, there is no upside for a business to tell the world that not only are they wrong but they're also all kinds of horrible. There's a big difference between standing your ground in a respectful manner, as not to let customers walk all over you, and publicly demeaning people.

nekkidtruth
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nekkidtruth

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I don't believe "With your permission, I can post the notes on the account" is demeaning. It certainly puts people who are lying and or have something to hide, in their place though. When someone leaves out tidbits of information in order to skew the situation, they should absolutely be called on it. Whether it's a business or not.

This is especially true in a place such as this where it's literally your word against theirs and public perception is everything. These people are not standing in a store surrounded by the public being called out on their absurd accusations. They're anonymously posting on a forum around a bunch of other anonymous posters. Most of which have developed self-important attitudes.

All the while, keeping in mind that George (or anyone in his position) wouldn't/shouldn't ever take such a risk unless it was absolutely clear the customer is in error and or attempting to stir up shit. THAT would be horrible business practice and would make little sense.

infamouskid
join:2007-01-24
White Rock, BC
·TELUS

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wow. my gf is about to join one of these respective companies as a customer and from mine and her experience the conversation between gbizzle and fergyferg has been great.
even on another forum i frequent both companies work hard to address any customer complaint. but just skimming through this thread i think some of you need to calm down.
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

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said by nekkidtruth:

I don't believe "With your permission, I can post the notes on the account" is demeaning.

It gives the impression they have something to hide if they don't agree to allow the notes to be posted. They don't know what the agent wrote down, it could have been a complete fabrication (article just the other day on DSLR about Comcast retention agents doing just that to protect their bonuses). The company also has incentive to omit/adjust information for PR purposes. Even if the company posts verbatim what's in the notes, it's still subject to the filter of the agent. Outside observers cannot verify either claim.

To be clear: I am not suggesting vMedia, George, or any of his team did any of the above. The "nothing to hide" argument is well known, as is the typical effect on perception as expressed by nekkidtruth: because they are "hiding" they must "have something to hide" or be lying.

We also cannot know what influences might be at play with the individuals involved, the situation itself, or the company's position. What if the person has mental issues like ODD or a bipolar episode? What if they're caught in an irrational escalation and only need a way out to save face? What if the agent was worried about getting fired and knew they screwed up and tried to conceal that fact? What if the company is under financial pressures that are compromising their ability to provide the level of support expected within the industry? What if it was a simple misunderstanding of terms related to the technology that was not caught (customer thought they were asking about X to CSR it means Y)? What if the problem is real but it's not a known issue that can be detected by standard methods (like Sync-No-Surf)? There are so many possible influencing factors that it makes posting any case notes pointless. So what's to gain from posting it or even suggesting it be posted?

In the final calculation it simply doesn't matter who was right/wrong. It's an issue of perception. There's some great reading on the subject, I'll see if I can find a link to it. It deals with interaction justice, perception justice, etc in this type of situation. If the customer/business relationship is going to be severed regardless of any action by the company there are two main things that are important for a business at that point:
1) How the damage can be mitigated for a bad review
2) What is the customer going to keep thinking/saying about us in the future

1) Trying to convince people you were in the right is ineffective. People will make that decision based on their own biases. Demeaning someone does more damage than good to the perceptions of those who have a bias towards the reviewer's "side" and will likely have little effect immediate effect on those with a bias towards the company's "side". The comments may have a backfire effect on those with a bias towards the company if those individuals start having problems. The comments can act as "evidence" (regardless of truth) for such a person to rationalize/solidify a change in bias toward the company and if such a change occurs the sense of betrayal is amplified.

2) If a person does leave due to perceived injustice, kicking them on the way out will increase the odds that they'll retaliate in some way (make the review worse, go on a tantrum and try to tarnish the company's reputation, start trolling the company to get revenge, etc). It will also increase the odds that they will proactively discourage their friends/acquaintances/etc from any relationship with the company. Word of mouth is one of the most important deciding factors (behind large price differences & availability) for most people when deciding where to shop, especially for long term service agreements. Anything you can do to reduce a person's negative perception on the way out can make a big difference. A comment of "they're cheap but their support isn't the greatest" may not deter someone looking for the best deal but a comment of "stay far away from them they'll treat you like crap" may sway someone to spend a little extra to avoid the idea of that happening to them.

If on the other hand the relationship isn't being severed and the person is trying to manipulate the situation via the public, all of the above still applies. The difference being that you have an opportunity to bring a publicly vocal customer around to having a company bias. These types of individuals are often the ones who become "fanboys" because of their excessive emotional investment in such interactions. There are some who will try to manipulate simply for a discount or something of value to them, they will often back down/look for easier targets *if* you can keep them from irrational escalation.

None of this is to suggest you give them whatever they want or let your staff become verbal punching bags. If you need to terminate the relationship, do so in a respectful manner - no need to go down to their level. Two wrongs don't make a right. Eye for an eye. The greater the truth, the greater the libel... and all those other great idioms

nekkidtruth
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nekkidtruth

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Everything you've said can easily be dismissed/disproved/ignored entirely by adding one simple thing to the equation. The Internet.

I'm sorry but, anonymity on the Internet has brought all sorts of randomness into the world and we no longer live in a world of black and white.

I don't think it's demeaning at all to call someone out on their B.S. Customer or not. Thing is, even without the "notes", most of these people disappear and or stop responding. The ones that do continue, are all outspoken and usually disappear after being asked permission to share said notes. That speaks volumes.

Of course notes can be fabricated. So? How is that any different than a lying customer or a customer who omits details to skew in favour of their issue/review? Hint: It's not. The fact is, George (or anyone in his position) has a LOT more to lose than some random anonymous person on the Internet. It wouldn't be in a company's best interest at all to call someone out unless it was true and or the perception of the entire complaint/review would change by simply reading the notes. Something also tells me that George is a pretty smart guy and most likely is capable of accessing recorded calls and or see when notes were changed. You do know companies in this industry do those things right?

Example:
You call in 6 times over a 2 month period. Your first 4 calls are noted and there doesn't appear to be any type of issue between you and the agent. Your last 2 calls the agent states you're swearing up a storm and threatening to eat his first born. Hmm....I wonder whom we believe in this case. Is it possible the customer turned into a psycho? Sure. Is it reasonable to assume that based on the prior 4 notes? Of course not.
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

JMJimmy

Member

said by nekkidtruth:

I'm sorry but, anonymity on the Internet has brought all sorts of randomness into the world and we no longer live in a world of black and white.

We never did live in a black and white world. The internet changes none of my points, if anything it is because of the internet that those points are made stronger. Take an auto repair shop - in a big city they could just keep screwing people over without a care for customer service. Word might get out to some people but there'd always be more suckers. With the internet all the sudden it became incredibly important because it became more widely known.

Yes when you read a negative review it's with the understanding the person writing it has an axe to grind and is likely hyperbolic and not as bad as they claim. But are you more likely to believe that claim if you see them being attacked by the CEO or are you more likely to believe the company if the CEO is being courteous in the face of obvious overreactions?

The % speak more than any notes would. Taking out the 3 that resulted in attacks, they're pretty bad.
said by nekkidtruth:

Of course notes can be fabricated. So? How is that any different than a lying customer or a customer who omits details to skew in favour of their issue/review? Hint: It's not.

That was my point.
said by nekkidtruth:

Something also tells me that George is a pretty smart guy and most likely is capable of accessing recorded calls and or see when notes were changed. You do know companies in this industry do those things right?

Yup I do know that. I fully expect they do record (it is in their ToS). It'd be extremely unlikely for those recordings to be posted though.

Even with your example, lets say someone did go "psycho". What if it's simply because they're bipolar and their meds stopped working? It happens all the time - I have one in my family and my fiance has 2 in hers. The one in my family works for the UN - 99.9% of the time she's fine, every so often things go wonky and it can either get really weird or insanely scary. For others these periods can last months. If she ever did anything she'd make amends for it but some people are simply too ashamed. Would you still feel justified about demeaning and/or broadcasting the details for the sake of being "right"?

nekkidtruth
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nekkidtruth

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said by JMJimmy:

We never did live in a black and white world.

Yet, everything you said indicates you think we do.
said by JMJimmy:

Yes when you read a negative review it's with the understanding the person writing it has an axe to grind and is likely hyperbolic and not as bad as they claim. But are you more likely to believe that claim if you see them being attacked by the CEO or are you more likely to believe the company if the CEO is being courteous in the face of obvious overreactions?

Where has a CEO attacked anyone? I'm more likely to believe George in most of these cases because he has been courteous and he has put in the effort to have issues resolved in a professional manner.
said by JMJimmy:

That was my point.

Your point is, notes can be fabricated. Ok? We already know this. However, the chance that the CEO of a company would willy nilly post fabricated notes (especially without digging into the situation thoroughly), is pretty much slim to none. That was my point.
said by JMJimmy:

Yup I do know that. I fully expect they do record (it is in their ToS). It'd be extremely unlikely for those recordings to be posted though.

Of course it's unlikely. I don't recall George ever offering to do such a thing.
said by JMJimmy:

Even with your example, lets say someone did go "psycho". What if it's simply because they're bipolar and their meds stopped working? It happens all the time - I have one in my family and my fiance has 2 in hers. The one in my family works for the UN - 99.9% of the time she's fine, every so often things go wonky and it can either get really weird or insanely scary. For others these periods can last months. If she ever did anything she'd make amends for it but some people are simply too ashamed. Would you still feel justified about demeaning and/or broadcasting the details for the sake of being "right"?

How exactly is anyone, let alone George here on the forums suppose to know someone has any sort of mental stability issues? Don't be absurd. The scenerio above indicated that those around her actually know she has this issue and are capable of dealing with it. There is no way to know whether a customer on the phone or on the Internet has any of those issues. Even still, if it were to come to light after the fact, it doesn't really change anything. There is absolutely nothing demeaning about what George is doing/has done on these boards. You're reaching.

Edit: Personal note, I don't believe any of the above automatically absolves a person from lying, purposely skewing public perception in order to discredit someone/something on the Internet.
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

JMJimmy

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wow... just wow.

Cheers George, I do hope you do well.
guitxo
join:2013-06-09
Scarborough, ON

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When I read OP's I got scared, but what really will helps make a decision against vmedia is George's response. With that attitude it wouldn't surprise me if current customers who read this post cancel right away. I know I would.
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BoogaBooga
join:2004-06-12
Canada

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I've been keeping up with this post and the thought of cancelling has not crossed my mind.

Why would I cancel when my service is pretty good? I don't care if people go through 7 hells to get their issues fixed. My service is fine...
docbill
join:2006-10-24
Stoney Creek, ON

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Last month I was really considering switching to Vmedia. I definitely made the the right decision in deciding not to.