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wizziwig
join:2013-01-25

wizziwig to serge87

Member

to serge87

Re: [Networking] Symmetrical Tier Upgrade resulted in lower download speeds

Or sometimes zero fluff regardless of plan as in my case:
»Anyone near Huntington Beach, CA with 75 Mbps?

I don't think anyone really knows what controls the amount of fluff with FIOS. Be glad if you get anything beyond what you're officially paying for.
ScrawnyB
join:2004-05-18
Mechanicsburg, PA

ScrawnyB

Member

said by wizziwig:

I don't think anyone really knows what controls the amount of fluff with FIOS. Be glad if you get anything beyond what you're officially paying for.

If you have TV service, the idea of fluff is an extra 8-9Mbps for Video on Demand (VoD) to make up for the fact that it takes from your normal internet bandwidth, hence the warnings on Verizon's speedtest site.

If you have TV service also, maybe sending a message with some information to nycdave See Profile would make sense so he could take a look at your account, unless he comes across this thread post first.

nycdave
MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY

nycdave

MVM

Sorry, I'm not looking at any more accounts for this issue. All impacted accounts were fixed weeks ago.

bluepoint
join:2001-03-24

bluepoint to ScrawnyB

Member

to ScrawnyB
said by ScrawnyB:

If you have TV service, the idea of fluff is an extra 8-9Mbps for Video on Demand (VoD) to make up for the fact that it takes from your normal internet bandwidth, hence the warnings on Verizon's speedtest site

My understanding of the fluff is what you've described, however, with REV I and Ethernet WAN connection here, VOD doesn't take any bandwidth from my 'net. I tested it by watching a VOD then simultaneously did a speedtest. Bandwidth and latency did not change. The extra speeds I think is for Verizon and other ISP to be compliant to the speeds they advertised. But yes, if after the upgrade the speeds are not up to(below) the advertised speed, the provisioning is not right.

nycdave
MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY

nycdave

MVM

You will see HD VOD imapacting data throughput when you run 2 HD VOD streams simultaneously....

bluepoint
join:2001-03-24

bluepoint

Member

Ah, so that's how it is. Thanks.
spc111
join:2003-12-09
NJ

spc111 to nycdave

Member

to nycdave
This implies that there is bandwidth reserved for IP VOD that can not be used by your normal Internet activity and that this bandwidth is only enough for a single HD stream. In order to support more than one concurrent stream, it needs to start using part of your Internet bandwidth.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish

Premium Member

I remember this, I once started a SD VOD stream and then a speedtest you should see and addition 5mb down, believe Verizon's edge router handles this

bluepoint
join:2001-03-24

bluepoint to nycdave

Member

to nycdave
What's the HD VOD streaming's limit you can watch simultaneously?

Pepsiman
join:2002-01-18
Brooklyn, NY

1 edit

Pepsiman to 46436203

Member

to 46436203
said by 46436203:

Is this the first time an Internet service provider has offered speed tiers that are lopsided in favor of the upload speed and not the download speed?

This is awesome.

yeah, tell me about it




tongyang
join:2003-07-18
Alexandria, VA

tongyang to nycdave

Member

to nycdave
said by nycdave:

Sorry, I'm not looking at any more accounts for this issue. All impacted accounts were fixed weeks ago.

I PM'ed you a few weeks ago and you told me to wait back then... but unfortunately it never got fixed. So not all accounts were fixed.

bluepoint
join:2001-03-24

bluepoint

Member

Have you powered off/on the router? Mine didn't change until I do so.
tongyang
join:2003-07-18
Alexandria, VA

tongyang

Member

said by bluepoint:

Have you powered off/on the router? Mine didn't change until I do so.

Just tried again after rebooting router and here's what I got..




Download still looks like it's hardcapped at 50.

bluepoint
join:2001-03-24

bluepoint

Member

Power it off wait 30 seconds then on. Just rebooting the router is not enough if the config has change.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish

Premium Member

What are you talking about, the speeds are controlled on Verizons edge router, turning your home router on and off doesn't do anything

bluepoint
join:2001-03-24

bluepoint

Member

When my symmetrical upgrade was corrected it didn't took effect until I powered down the Actiontec router. This was also true when I requested to switch the Coax WAN to Ethernet WAN. Edge router controlling my service's speed is new to me, can you please elaborate a bit more and why my experience was so?

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish

Premium Member

Don't know about what you experience, luck of the draw timing wise I would guess, edge router controlling bandwidth has been with FIOS since day one.

Sound like you think the router acts like a cable modem which have profiles, routers do not.

bluepoint
join:2001-03-24

2 edits

bluepoint

Member

said by guppy_fish:

Don't know about what you experience, luck of the draw timing wise I would guess, edge router controlling bandwidth has been with FIOS since day one.

So you think I'm just blowing smoke when it happens twice. Can you please tell me how an individual provisioned speed is controlled by the edge router? You're pretty much telling me that's how it is without giving me some solid lead. Can you, or is this just what you think? My guess is, the ONT controls the provisioning.
said by guppy_fish:

Sound like you think the router acts like a cable modem which have profiles, routers do not.

Your words not mine. I think what I said, in both instances, that when there were changes to my service, both instances I have to reboot the router to take effect.

spc111
join:2003-12-09
NJ

spc111

Member

I believe that guppy_fish is correct. Rate limiting/Traffic shaping is done at the edge router on the provider side.

As far as having to reboot your router when changing from Coax to Ethernet, this might be necessary, I don't know.

But using Ethernet to the ONT is supported by all customer routers, not just Verizon's proprietary one, so obviously there can be no special config on the customer router that limits bandwidth.

So really, you only experienced this phenomenon (having to reboot your router after a speed change) once, that is hardly empirical evidence of your hypothesis.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939

Premium Member

Shaping and rate limiting is done at the edge router as most OLT's are Layer 2 only, whereas most shaping/rate limiting is done at the application layer, or Layer 7. ONT's are pretty dumb devices, and basically only have enough brains to them to multiplex the traffic (voice, data, QAM video).

As far as the configuration goes, that is only partially true as it depends on how Verizon's authentication is setup. Older installations are based on ATM (BPON), and as such use PPPoE or PPPoA authentication (same as DSL) necessitating a username and password. While traffic shaping can be done on an authentication basis, Verizon uses generic logins, so they probably shape based on a MUX'd channel/port basis. Newer installs (primarily GPON) use DHCP (like cable) instead.

The only two ways that restarting your router would affect your speed has to do with the various tables (NAT, etc.) being cleared allowing the router room to breath. The other way would be the refresh of your IP which could be assigned to a different edge/provisioning router which has less load. I don't know Verizon's network design, but the TCAM table problems have highlighted the limitations of older platforms as edge routers.

bluepoint
join:2001-03-24

bluepoint to spc111

Member

to spc111
said by spc111:

I believe that guppy_fish is correct. Rate limiting/Traffic shaping is done at the edge router on the provider side.

So what you're saying here is what you believe. What I'm looking for are fact that will tell me the edge routers control the individual speed provisioning of the entire neighborhood. Can you point me to a FAQ or site that supports your belief?
said by spc111:

But using Ethernet to the ONT is supported by all customer routers, not just Verizon's proprietary one, so obviously there can be no special config on the customer router that limits bandwidth.

There is no argument with your statement here. I am totally aware that the Actiontec is not a modem but a router. If there is a modem, it's the ONT.
said by spc111:

So really, you only experienced this phenomenon (having to reboot your router after a speed change) once, that is hardly empirical evidence of your hypothesis.

Actually, the two power off I experienced has to do with changing the provisioning of my service.
a. Corrected my download speed after symmetrical upgrade
b. Change coaxial WAN to Ethernet WAN

If you've taken note both involves modifying my service's provisioning(configuration) of which both took effect when I powered off the router. Both instances, I was talking to a Verizon's support telling me that the changes were done. Both instances the service did not change until I powered off the router. As to why it did what it did, is what I want to know.


sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939

Premium Member

said by bluepoint:

said by spc111:

I believe that guppy_fish is correct. Rate limiting/Traffic shaping is done at the edge router on the provider side.

So what you're saying here is what you believe. What I'm looking for are fact that will tell me the edge routers control the individual speed provisioning of the entire neighborhood. Can you point me to a FAQ or site that supports your belief?
said by spc111:

But using Ethernet to the ONT is supported by all customer routers, not just Verizon's proprietary one, so obviously there can be no special config on the customer router that limits bandwidth.

There is no argument with your statement here. I am totally aware that the Actiontec is not a modem but a router. If there is a modem, it's the ONT.
said by spc111:

So really, you only experienced this phenomenon (having to reboot your router after a speed change) once, that is hardly empirical evidence of your hypothesis.

Actually, the two power off I experienced has to do with changing the provisioning of my service.
a. Corrected my download speed after symmetrical upgrade
b. Change coaxial WAN to Ethernet WAN

If you've taken note both involves modifying my service's provisioning(configuration) of which both took effect when I powered off the router. Both instances, I was talking to a Verizon's support telling me that the changes were done. Both instances the service did not change until I powered off the router. As to why it did what it did, is what I want to know.

See my post above for the first one.

The ONT is more akin to a media convertor.

See above for the third one.

bluepoint
join:2001-03-24

bluepoint to sk1939

Member

to sk1939
said by sk1939:

Newer installs (primarily GPON) use DHCP (like cable) instead.

This is more likely my setup but using BPON ONT. I'm not a technical person to understand shaping and layers you've mentioned. Can you explain how the speed provisions like mine @50/50 Mbps are controlled by verizon in laymans word as much if you can? Thanks.
said by sk1939:

The only two ways that restarting your router would affect your speed has to do with the various tables (NAT, etc.) being cleared allowing the router room to breath. The other way would be the refresh of your IP which could be assigned to a different edge/provisioning router which has less load. I don't know Verizon's network design, but the TCAM table problems have highlighted the limitations of older platforms as edge routers.

Like what I've said, two provisioning changes I've made both necessitated a power off. Okay, if you guys insist, I'll just think that it never happened.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish

Premium Member

NYCDave had confirmed more than once the edge routers handle the rate limits. It is this way by design as from the beginning Verizon on demand has dynamic bandwidth allocation. If your still not convinced, please use the search function. I'm not guessing at this.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939 to bluepoint

Premium Member

to bluepoint
said by bluepoint:

said by sk1939:

Newer installs (primarily GPON) use DHCP (like cable) instead.

This is more likely my setup but using BPON ONT. I'm not a technical person to understand shaping and layers you've mentioned. Can you explain how the speed provisions like mine @50/50 Mbps are controlled by verizon in laymans word as much if you can? Thanks.
said by sk1939:

The only two ways that restarting your router would affect your speed has to do with the various tables (NAT, etc.) being cleared allowing the router room to breath. The other way would be the refresh of your IP which could be assigned to a different edge/provisioning router which has less load. I don't know Verizon's network design, but the TCAM table problems have highlighted the limitations of older platforms as edge routers.

Like what I've said, two provisioning changes I've made both necessitated a power off. Okay, if you guys insist, I'll just think that it never happened.

DHCP with a BPON ONT means that the FIOS install for the area was after the initial round of deployments, but before GPON matured. Speeds are controlled in software by a router that is well into Verizon's network and is NOT after the ONT.

As far as the power off goes, I've already explained how and why the power-offs were required and what it means.
Gildor
join:2008-02-02
Torrance, CA

Gildor

Member

Another happy camper here...



sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939

Premium Member

No go on this end yet.


tongyang
join:2003-07-18
Alexandria, VA

tongyang to bluepoint

Member

to bluepoint
said by bluepoint:

Power it off wait 30 seconds then on. Just rebooting the router is not enough if the config has change.

Just tried unplugging router for 30 seconds then back on. Same results.


navyson
join:2011-07-15
Upper Marlboro, MD

navyson to ScrawnyB

Member

to ScrawnyB
Was just automatically upgrade to the free symmetrical speeds and there has been a significant slowdown in my download speed.

On my previous 50/25 plan, I used to get up to 57 down and 25 up wireless very early in the am. Now(very early in the am), I am only getting 43 down and 53 upload. Around the same after several speed test.

I want my faster downloads back.

WileEC
mindtaker, macky cat, etc.
join:2002-02-07
Yonkers, NY

3 edits

WileEC to ScrawnyB

Member

to ScrawnyB
I don't know if replying to this thread is going to help me, but I have 50/20 internet which has been rock solid for years now but sometime over the past four days my speeds have downgraded to 20/20 (symmetrical rollout?). My account still says 50/20, but I can't get anything over 20 down. I'm on the phone with Verizon right now and they did some kind of system reset and it didn't help at all. What now?

I had a bad feeling this was going to be a cluster f.

Does anyone know if the AccessMAX SFH ONT 610X is capable of 50/50?

How about the Actiontec MI424WR-GEN2 Rev E?