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Elesbee
@67.189.176.x

Elesbee

Anon

[Electrical] GFI behind sink shuts off power to dining room outlets

My GC's electrician wired my kitchen (completely new house) so that the GFI in the splash behind and just a few inches to the left of the sink is on the same circuit as the outlets in the dining area. (They are adjacent spaces.) I never use this outlet - infact it is hard to get to because my dish drying wrack is right in front of it. The problem is that the GFI is constantly getting splashed and the dining room outlets go off until I realize that the batteries in my devices have run down. My GC tells me that's what the code requires. Is this really true - that you need an outlet behind the sink? Unless I were to be using an electrical appliance IN the sink, I can't see why an outlet here is a good idea. Is this the way it has to be?

davidg
Good Bye My Friend
MVM
join:2002-06-15
00000

davidg

MVM

not behind, but near the sink is common. but they could change the circuit so that the dining room is on the line and not load side of the GFCI.
PrntRhd
Premium Member
join:2004-11-03
Fairfield, CA

PrntRhd to Elesbee

Premium Member

to Elesbee
The GFI is required on all kitchen counter outlets, but the outlet by the sink is not required. I would try kid proofing the outlet to keep the water out of the receptacles.
»www.homedepot.com/p/Good ··· 17588969
iknow_t
join:2012-05-03

iknow_t to Elesbee

Member

to Elesbee
the kitchen outlets cannot be shared with another room, that's a code violation. and putting an outlet so close to the sink that it gets splashed with water is just stupid!!.

Msradell
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY

Msradell to Elesbee

Premium Member

to Elesbee
The code doesn't require one to be directly behind the sink but there are minimum and maximum spacing requirements for them. Anyplace on the countertop has to be within 2' of an outlet in any section of wall >=2' has to have an outlet. The one near the sink may have had to be put there to meet some of these requirements. As David said however, the dining room circuit does not have to be protected by a GFCI so it could be connected to the line side of the GFCI and giving you the problem.

Dining room circuits have to be 20a like the kitchen small appliances circuits and depending in the code version in your area can be tied into one of the kitchen small appliances circuits. 2 small appliances circuits are the minimum but many kitchens have more.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

3 recommendations

nunya to Elesbee

MVM

to Elesbee
Let me clarify, because some of these answers are wrong or misleading.
If your house was built recently, all of the kitchen countertop receptacles are required to be GFCI. Any receptacles within 6 feet of the sink are required to be GFCI. It is perfectly OK for the dining room to be served from the kitchen circuits (e.g., your builder / electrician did nothing wrong).

I'd say your biggest problem you need to deal with is the fact that the outlet is being "splashed". I have an old house which has a receptacle directly behind the sink. It never gets wet. Figure out how is being splashed and put a stop to it.

The dining room outlet is not required to be GFCI protected unless it falls into the scenarios listed above. They may have to install additional GFCI receptacles downstream to "free up" your dining room receptacle.
iknow_t
join:2012-05-03

iknow_t

Member

said by nunya:

It is perfectly OK for the dining room to be served from the kitchen circuits (e.g., your builder / electrician did nothing wrong).

that would mean that if the dining room shuts off the power to the kitchen, someone in there could get seriously burned in the dark without lights. if that's code, then the code is stupid..
dick white
Premium Member
join:2000-03-24
Springfield, VA

dick white

Premium Member

said by iknow_t:

said by nunya:

It is perfectly OK for the dining room to be served from the kitchen circuits (e.g., your builder / electrician did nothing wrong).

that would mean that if the dining room shuts off the power to the kitchen, someone in there could get seriously burned in the dark without lights. if that's code, then the code is stupid..

The situation here does not include any lights, only outlets. If something happens in the dining room, the only risk in the kitchen is cold toast.

dw

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

mackey to iknow_t

Premium Member

to iknow_t
said by iknow_t:

that would mean that if the dining room shuts off the power to the kitchen, someone in there could get seriously burned in the dark without lights. if that's code, then the code is stupid..

said by NEC :

(B) Small Appliances.

(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

You cannot have lights on the receptacle circuit.

/M

Elesbee
@67.189.176.x

Elesbee

Anon

Does this mean if I have a floor lamp plugged in to the dining room outlet that is on this circuit connected to the GFI at the sink I am out of compliance?

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

mackey

Premium Member

No, the NEC stops at the receptacle and doesn't cover anything that is plugged in.

/M
Hellrazor
Bah Humbug
join:2002-02-02
Abyss, PA

Hellrazor to Elesbee

Member

to Elesbee
said by Elesbee :

Does this mean if I have a floor lamp plugged in to the dining room outlet that is on this circuit connected to the GFI at the sink I am out of compliance?

No, you plug it in the water line to use "hydro power". Here's your sign.....

Elesbee
@67.189.176.x

Elesbee

Anon

So do I understand correctly that the electrician did nothing wrong - just stupid? I'd like to know if I have any basis to ask my GC to cover the cost of changing it.

I already had another electrician try to rewire the outlets - I think he was trying to put the dining room on the line side but it didn't work. Maybe the GFI is faulty or oversensitive but the dining room outlets continue to shut down periodically and resetting the GFI over the sink is the fix.

The GFI is exposed to water when I use the sink, especially for washing dishes and placing them in the drying rack which is right in front of the outlet. In fact it obscures the outlet. I may take the low tech child-proofing approach. If all else fails, duct tape. Thanks for all your input

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya

MVM

said by Elesbee :

I already had another electrician try to rewire the outlets - I think he was trying to put the dining room on the line side but it didn't work. Maybe the GFI is faulty or oversensitive but the dining room outlets continue to shut down periodically and resetting the GFI over the sink is the fix.

It means you hired a buffoon who cannot handle the simplest of tasks, electrically speaking.

Elesbee
@67.189.176.x

Elesbee

Anon

Thank you. The story of my life.

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

1 edit

1 recommendation

whizkid3 to iknow_t

MVM

to iknow_t
said by iknow_t:

the kitchen outlets cannot be shared with another room, that's a code violation. and putting an outlet so close to the sink that it gets splashed with water is just stupid!!.

said by nunya:

It is perfectly OK for the dining room to be served from the kitchen circuits (e.g., your builder / electrician did nothing wrong).

that would mean that if the dining room shuts off the power to the kitchen, someone in there could get seriously burned in the dark without lights. if that's code, then the code is stupid..

Guys, nunya has it correct. Please read his post; and if you don't know what you are talking about; try to resist the urge to pretend you do and stick your foot in your mouth. Please. For the OP's and safety's sake.

Also note that if there is a counter-top in the dining rooms (there sometimes is); these receptacles if they serve the counter-top must meet the same requirements as the kitchen counter-top receptacles, and have GFCI protection.
said by Elesbee :

I already had another electrician try to rewire the outlets - I think he was trying to put the dining room on the line side but it didn't work.

Meaning he was a carpenter, not an electrician.

Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH

Hall to nunya

MVM

to nunya
Isn't an easier solution (and I am not an electrician ) to move the GFCI elsewhere in the circuit. Or wait, it only protects "downstream" right ? I guess the OP's comment that what was done isn't wrong, just stupid
Hall

Hall to PrntRhd

MVM

to PrntRhd
said by PrntRhd:

The GFI is required on all kitchen counter outlets, but the outlet by the sink is not required. I would try kid proofing the outlet to keep the water out of the receptacles

That's what I would do. Yes, I know they're not "waterproof", but it's certainly better than nothing and the OP has already stated he/she doesn't use this receptacle because of where it's at.

Tex
Dave's not here
Premium Member
join:2012-10-20

1 recommendation

Tex to Elesbee

Premium Member

to Elesbee
»www.legrand.us/passandse ··· Dp1Y-M5s

enon
@66.87.81.x

enon to Elesbee

Anon

to Elesbee
said by Elesbee :

I may take the low tech child-proofing approach. If all else fails, duct tape. Thanks for all your input

Since this is new construction, I would think the devices are TR. If that's the case, the conductive portion of the receptacle is already protected and adding child proof plugs will not likely change anything.

Unless the OP is spraying water directly in to the outlet while washing dishes, I suspect something else is going on here. I have seen GFCIs installed in much damper locations than adjacent to a residential kitchen sink and they do not trip.

Elesbee
@67.189.176.x

Elesbee to Tex

Anon

to Tex
Thank you! Will these covers also work on my deck GFI's? The electrician installed outlets that have rather bulky plastic covers that protrude a few inches. Can I replace those with these flat covers?

enon
@66.87.81.x

enon

Anon

said by Elesbee :

Can I replace those with these flat covers?

No; these are known as "in-use" covers and are required by code in locations considered "wet", such as your outdoor deck.

Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH

Hall to Tex

MVM

to Tex
said by Tex:

Thank you! Will these covers also work on my deck GFI's? The electrician installed outlets that have rather bulky plastic covers that protrude a few inches. Can I replace those with these flat covers?

How unattractive ! I would NEVER allow either of those as a solution.

Msradell
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY

Msradell to Tex

Premium Member

to Tex
That Looks like the Perfect Solution! Especially since his electrician couldn't manage to where the dining room outlets to the line side of the GFCI.

Tex
Dave's not here
Premium Member
join:2012-10-20

Tex to Hall

Premium Member

to Hall
said by Elesbee :

If all else fails, duct tape.

Hey, it beats duct tape.
said by Elesbee :

In fact it obscures the outlet.

If you can't see it, how is it unattractive?

Elesbee
@67.189.176.x

Elesbee to enon

Anon

to enon
Click for full size
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No - not spraying water directly into the outlet but the outlet does get splashed when I put wet dishes into the drying rack. I'm attaching a photo but you probably get the idea. Note there's another outlet nearby in the corner to the left and another on the right of the window. When I asked my GC why the outlet was put so close to the wet area he said it's code.

dcurrey
Premium Member
join:2004-06-29
Mason, OH

2 edits

dcurrey to Elesbee

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to Elesbee
Delete!

BlueMist
join:2011-01-24
Cookeville, TN

1 edit

BlueMist to Elesbee

Member

to Elesbee
Since you say you do not use the affected outlet here is a temporary solution that will help you get by until something more permanent can be arranged.

»www.target.com/p/safety- ··· r+babies
said by userBlueMist :
One other thought, in the circuit breaker panel that services this outlet, is the breaker itself also a GFI breaker? Reason I ask is that you never want two GFI style devices on the same circuit. They usually do not work well together and cause one or the other to trip.

With GFI devices it is either a GFI circuit breaker at the main panel servicing an outlet or string of outlets or a standard breaker at the panel and a single GFI outlet somewhere on that circuit.
My above comments were based on old information and does not reflect the more modern GFCI units being sold today. You can use multiple units on the same circuit when they are properly installed. Sorry about the old information.

Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH

1 recommendation

Hall to Elesbee

MVM

to Elesbee
said by Elesbee :

not spraying water directly into the outlet but the outlet does get splashed when I put wet dishes into the drying rack

Are you certain it is tripping when you think it is (after putting wet dishes in that rack) ? I can't even picture enough water on dishes to "splash", let alone enough to splash and get that outlet wet enough and water into those small slots. Something else is wrong.... IMO

Tex
Dave's not here
Premium Member
join:2012-10-20

Tex to Elesbee

Premium Member

to Elesbee
That's not what I had pictured in my mind's eye. I pictured the receptacle a lot closer to the sink. I tend to agree with the others that say something else is going on to cause the GFCI to trip. FYI, I have a GFCI receptacle about the same distance from my sink and it's never tripped.