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jumpingryan
join:2008-07-27
Pembroke, ON

jumpingryan

Member

Industry Canada: Digital Canada 150 Program - Corporate boondoggle????

I checked out the website for the Digital Canada 150 Federal broadband program, and I must say, while ambitious, I am becoming even more concerned as a taxpayer that the whole thing is a giant government/corporate boondoggle.

305 million dollars for Broadband to rural Canadians. A fancy map for input, colourful PDF, re-tweets of the pam, etc etc.

25 Square Km Areas classified into "served" and "under-served" areas.... However, the devil is in the details with this program.

Apparently my area, hexid ON45840773 is listed as "served". That means we are ineligible for application for federal funding. Not one cent can go to helping my neighbourhood get a level of broadband funding.

In my "served area", with my 16 other neighbours who are in similar circumstances, we can't get DSL, cable, nor wireless point to point. Phone line quality sucks as well.

We are left with Xplornet Satellite, and/or Bell cellular 3G (LTE does not cover my location as we are too far from the tower). Rogers gets 1 bar or so cellular.

Either street beside us is "served" with 5/1 minimum.

However, you can compare our level of access to those "under-served" areas that definitely need funding. I do not know these people, but have been in their area so I thought I would randomly surf google and the Bell access page:

ON46060775 - 106 Lorne Pl, Deep River Ontario K0J 1P0 DSL 5 Mbps 40 Gig cap
ON45750773 - 8599 Round Lake Road, Pembroke, Ontario, K8A 6W8 DSL 5Mbps 40 Gig cap
ON45510775 - 19 Borutski St Wilno Ontario K0J 2N0 DSL 25 Mbps 100 Gig cap

The kml file can be downloaded at the link below... would be interested to hear more about this. The file was last updated early July 2014 apparently.

You can download the map at the link below:

»www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/02 ··· html

The information was meant for ISP's, but it appears publicly available. Unfortunately there isn't a form for homeowners to fill out, perhaps it will contradict what the ISP's report (wireless profits perhaps).

I have a feeling this program will be manipulated into the incumbent's applying for federal funding in the "supposed under-served areas".

Bring areas already served from 5/1 to the Fibe TV plan. In short, our tax dollars going to provide IPTV level service to those already with broadband landline internet.

Much like the previous program paying for cell towers with highly profitable overages.

Since when is someone in Wilno underserved with 25 Mbps access?

Have no doubt, there is going to be more locations found.... I just search areas I have driven through at random, max 2 hours away. I am waiting for someone to find the Golden nugget of a true conspiracy, perhaps 2 or 3 separate areas categorized within an "unserved" hex id that have Fibe 175!

In summary, if the Federal Government is basing their decisions on the provided map (which will be finalized after 30 Aug 14), we might have well just given the money to the consumers who have Turbo hubs.

305 million buys 30,500,000 gigs of downloads in Turbo Hub overage costs at $10 a gig! Divide that into the likely 100,000 people in Ontario who are stuck with cellular only internet access, and we can each download 305 gigs. At least the cash would provide us a level of usage we can appreciate.

LOL

Anyways, open for comments... I don't have time to search every address, but if you find something out of whack with this coverage map, post it for the rest of us. Who knows, maybe Industry Canada is watching....

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS

Our MP is strongly urging constituents to use the map and offer corrections. You can click on the address and correct the information. My cottage is listed as underserviced (true) but my home is listed as more than 5 meg. Not true. Corrections entered.

»www.owensoundsuntimes.co ··· ey-bruce
jumpingryan
join:2008-07-27
Pembroke, ON

jumpingryan

Member

said by DKS:

Our MP is strongly urging constituents to use the map and offer corrections. You can click on the address and correct the information. My cottage is listed as underserviced (true) but my home is listed as more than 5 meg. Not true. Corrections entered.

I also updated the map, but the main concern for me is getting my area changed to underserved. Right now, we are not eligible, and alot of areas with great internet are.

With most Federal Programs, the actual execution is:
1) Meet the criteria of the program.
2) Spend, spend, spend, on upgrades regardless.

That isn't a bad thing, but there are far too many people who actually NEED upgrades.

I am preparing a letter to my MP to request that our area be changed to an under-served area in order to meet the eligibility for funding.

Found two more areas that are "underserved", one with 5 Mbps download, another with 25. If I scan closer to the 7330/CO in Fort Stewart, I could probably find the areas that get 25.

ON45150776 94 Fort Stewart Road Bancroft Ontario K0L 1C0 DSL 5 40

ON45700771 16 Dicks Road Pembroke Ontario K8A 6W4 DSL 25 100

Up to a total of 6 areas "underserved" that are eligible for funding with minimum 5 Mbps Download.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

2 edits

resa1983 to jumpingryan

Premium Member

to jumpingryan
Yeah... My mom's area is showing more than 5mbps served.. But that's not even close to true.. Rogers won't run lines out their way, and they're so far from Bell's CO, they're lucky to get 1mbps.

Also isn't helping that when I do a search of her postal code, its showing the wrong area....

EDIT: Looks like because her postal code encompasses a huge area, some of which is close to Meaford & is covered. However, she's further away from Meaford, and not covered..

Industry Canada botched this entire thing already doing this by Postal Code in rural areas, where the postal code covers massive zones.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues

Premium Member

Elora has one postal code for the entire town. The entire town is 3.54 sq KM, the BEST (on paper) anyone is getting is 5/1 from a DSL connection .
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983 to jumpingryan

Premium Member

to jumpingryan
Click for full size
This is just pathetic..

Areas near Meaford are served.. Those further away aren't.. They're basing this all off postal codes for huge areas.. They should START with a postal code, and then break it down further to street.

Whoever planned this needs firing.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to DKS

Premium Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

but my home is listed as more than 5 meg. Not true.

No Rogers cable?
Marcer
Premium Member
join:2007-07-08
Hamilton, ON

Marcer to elwoodblues

Premium Member

to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

Elora has one postal code for the entire town. The entire town is 3.54 sq KM, the BEST (on paper) anyone is getting is 5/1 from a DSL connection .



Elora, On?

It's serviced by Cogeco at speeds well above 5Mbps
jumpingryan
join:2008-07-27
Pembroke, ON

jumpingryan to resa1983

Member

to resa1983
said by resa1983:

This is just pathetic..

Areas near Meaford are served.. Those further away aren't.. They're basing this all off postal codes for huge areas.. They should START with a postal code, and then break it down further to street.

Whoever planned this needs firing.

Having lived at Meaford for some of my life, some residences near the base probably receive outstanding point to point wireless coverage.... But as a cellular wireless user by force, I will emphasize that landline service is the best coverage, and should be the goal of the program.

I don't believe the areas are necessarily segregated by postal code equaling a hex_id... I will note there are the same hex patterns on the EORN site with a differing hex_id numbers. The hex_id's are apparently 25 square km.

If anybody with mapping experience could explain the hexagon format and it's usage it might shed some light on it. Is this standardized as part of computerized mapping? I assume the hexagon patterns relate to the curvature of the earth superimposed on a flat mapping surface? This might shed some light on the useage of the hexagon system.

I have a feeling a lot of MP's and/or the industry minister are going to be contacted with regard to those who are considered "served" yet lack quality internet access to lobby for a status change, ministerial exception, or other funding.

As of right now, served areas are inelligeable for funding as per the HEX_ID information box, which lists "ELIGIBLE" as being a zero or a one (yes/no in spreadsheet speak).

Ryan
jumpingryan

jumpingryan to Marcer

Member

to Marcer
said by Marcer:

said by elwoodblues:

Elora has one postal code for the entire town. The entire town is 3.54 sq KM, the BEST (on paper) anyone is getting is 5/1 from a DSL connection .



Elora, On?

It's serviced by Cogeco at speeds well above 5Mbps

That is one thing I didn't check, is Cogeco. I find their website check tool to be inaccurate at times WRT to internet access... I am trying to collect data to have available for viewing if required in the justification for funding for my "served area".

However if you have first hand info that the area gets good speeds, yet still is listed as undeserved (and therefore allowed access to the funding pot) post it up and I will add to my spreadsheet.

I intent to eventually post the spreadsheet of "under served areas" that actually have good/great internet for others to use. I have 6 entries so far.

Ryan

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to jumpingryan

MVM

to jumpingryan
The cottages just north of Montreal that I frequent a few times a year are listed as underserved, which is... accurate, I guess. I don't even get cell reception there. I don't mean no 3G, I mean no anything. Apparently Bell has 5-bar coverage, but not Rogers.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to Gone

to Gone
said by Gone:

said by DKS:

but my home is listed as more than 5 meg. Not true.

No Rogers cable?

Not for DSL.
DKS

DKS to resa1983

to resa1983
said by resa1983:

This is just pathetic..

Areas near Meaford are served.. Those further away aren't.. They're basing this all off postal codes for huge areas.. They should START with a postal code, and then break it down further to street.

Whoever planned this needs firing.

Anything north of 26 and west of the beach is 4 CAN DIV TC Meaford. South of 26 is rural concessions and rocks. Rogers has cable internet all the way along #26 between Meaford and Owen Sound.
DKS

DKS to jumpingryan

to jumpingryan
said by jumpingryan:

Having lived at Meaford for some of my life, some residences near the base probably receive outstanding point to point wireless coverage....

They do now, although wireless coverage disappears on base beyond the base headquarters. Telus has a tower on base. South of 26 is a catch as catch can, because of the escarpment.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to DKS

Premium Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

Not for DSL.

DSL isn't the only delivery method for high speed Internet access. If you have access to Rogers who provides speeds higher than 5Mbit/s, the map is correct in saying that your home in Owen Sound is covered.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to jumpingryan

MVM

to jumpingryan
Right. I qualify for 200 meg cable, or ~10 meg DSL. Would it be accurate to say that I'm only served by 10 meg broadband? Of course not, especially since I subscribed to 60 meg cable.
jumpingryan
join:2008-07-27
Pembroke, ON

jumpingryan

Member

said by Guspaz:

Right. I qualify for 200 meg cable, or ~10 meg DSL. Would it be accurate to say that I'm only served by 10 meg broadband? Of course not, especially since I subscribed to 60 meg cable.

Agreed.... The spirit of the program is to give rural and remote Canadians access to the internet. The goal is providing one type of access to a community better than the 5 Mbps limits.

The type of access the program funds is up for debate and reportedly technology neutral, but my opinion only, the focus should be landline cable, DSL or fibre. Cellular is defined as mobile internet, and should NOT be considered for funding. Why should taxpayer dollars pay for cellular upgrades? It also goes along with the statement that "Canadians need the fastest internet to transfer large files." Cellular offerings do not allow for that.

Communities with no access should be first... Communities with wireless/wireless cellular should be second. People with DSL or cable that meets the 5 MBps should not be illegible in my opinion.

I am in the second category. But I don't meet 5 Mbps. My area is also not eligible as a "served" area... A category I am going to try to change by request.

This is not a slush program to help you get access to upgraded cable internet when you already have 25 Mbps DSL, or vice versa because you don't like XXXXX company.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues to Marcer

Premium Member

to Marcer
DSL ,i'm aware of Cogeco's offerings and their low low caps.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to Gone

to Gone
said by Gone:

said by DKS:

Not for DSL.

DSL isn't the only delivery method for high speed Internet access. If you have access to Rogers who provides speeds higher than 5Mbit/s, the map is correct in saying that your home in Owen Sound is covered.

Not with DSL. The map allows for indication of level of service and technology. I don't have cable and don't want cable. Informal surveys suggest it is not much faster than Bell DSL.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

The fact remains that there is a wireline provider capable of providing services at speeds of at least 120Mbit/s in Owen Sound, if not 250Mbit/s. Because of this, I highly question the accuracy of your informal surveys. While I understand you have your preference in provider, this does not change the fact that Owen Sound is in a much better situation than many other locations across the country and thus is not - nor should it be - eligible for funding under this program.
jumpingryan
join:2008-07-27
Pembroke, ON

jumpingryan to DKS

Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

Not with DSL. The map allows for indication of level of service and technology. I don't have cable and don't want cable. Informal surveys suggest it is not much faster than Bell DSL.

I think going in line with the purpose of this program, it should be categorized the following ways:

1) Landline terrestrial - Fibre, DSL, Cable, amongst some other lesser known ways to get to the net to your house via landline

2) Wireless Line of sight

3) Wireless cellular/mobile

4) Satellite

I would accept either cable or DSL internet as long as it met my needs. I would expect the program to provide me with one choice.

While this funding will perhaps spur some interest in cable expansion, I just don't know how interested Rogers and/or Cogeco are in expansion of cable.... particularly Cogeco. I don't know much about Quebec and out west based offerings however.

Bell definately has the advantage in rural areas, as they already have much of the area covered with infrastructure already.... they just need to upgrade it.

Ryan
jumpingryan

jumpingryan to Gone

Member

to Gone
said by Gone:

The fact remains that there is a wireline provider capable of providing services at speeds of at least 120Mbit/s in Owen Sound, if not 250Mbit/s. Because of this, I highly question the accuracy of your informal surveys. While I understand you have your preference in provider, this does not change the fact that Owen Sound is in a much better situation than many other locations across the country and thus is not - nor should it be - eligible for funding under this program.

I think your statement in some ways amplifies my concerns with this program.

Those areas that are classified as "under-served" (rightly or wrongly) will likely find tax dollars hijacked for unnecessary upgrades... say 25 Mbps to the golden IPTV level service.

Areas with high end cable internet access will likely get some golden DSL upgrades paid for by taxpayers.

Served areas, with large pockets of cellular only access will continue getting gouged.

And lots more cell towers, in the name of providing internet access to the masses at the most profitable and un-usable level of net.

R

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

Why would somewhere that already has access to 50-100Mbit cable get funding for DSL upgrades?
jumpingryan
join:2008-07-27
Pembroke, ON

jumpingryan to elwoodblues

Member

to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

DSL ,i'm aware of Cogeco's offerings and their low low caps.

Low low caps? 40? 60gigs perhaps, and maybe $1 a gig overage max overage charge $50 to $100?

Sounds like a deal to me!

Try Turbo Hub (my only access available other than satellite; no DSL/cable available here).

Turbo hub costs $105 for 15 gigs cap.... and each additional gig is $10. No limit to overcharge. Once had a $7000 bill that I had to request relief for... something crosswired in my connection or got hijacked for data on one of the computers. Got it busted down to $1000 for the month.

Speed test last night with an LTE modem was 3.3 Mbps download, and 1.2 Mbps upload... my modem is likely downgrading to 3G despite great reception.

I am also in an area that is considered "served" by the Federal Government, and therefore not eligible for funding.

While I am not in the worst tier for Canadians (those with dialup only are far worse off), I am probably second last.
jumpingryan

jumpingryan to Gone

Member

to Gone
said by Gone:

Why would somewhere that already has access to 50-100Mbit cable get funding for DSL upgrades?

Well, I have located 6 addresses so far that meet the 5/1 minimum of the program, including 2 that have 25 Mbps download that are located in areas that are classified as "underserved".

My neighbourhood, which we have only lower quality Turbo hub (see previous reply to elwoodblues for description) is classified as a "served" area. A total of 16 houses at 2.1 km of line run, un-served by DSL or cable.

Served areas are not eligible for funding under this program (the areas in green).

"Underserved" areas are eligible for upgrade funding under the program.

That is what is turing this program into abit or alot of a boondoggle.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to DKS

MVM

to DKS
said by DKS:

Not with DSL. The map allows for indication of level of service and technology. I don't have cable and don't want cable. Informal surveys suggest it is not much faster than Bell DSL.

Your not wanting DSL has no relevance to what the best speed available in your area is. If DSL in your area is slower than 5 meg, even basic cable service would be substantially faster.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS

said by Guspaz:

said by DKS:

Not with DSL. The map allows for indication of level of service and technology. I don't have cable and don't want cable. Informal surveys suggest it is not much faster than Bell DSL.

Your not wanting DSL has no relevance to what the best speed available in your area is. If DSL in your area is slower than 5 meg, even basic cable service would be substantially faster.

That's not what the survey asks...

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to jumpingryan

MVM

to jumpingryan
What does the survey ask?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the context here. My understanding is that cable internet is available at your address, which would offer speeds substantially above 5 megabit, but you're claiming that you can only get speeds under 5 megabit because DSL coverage isn't as good, and you don't like cable...?
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983

Premium Member

said by Guspaz:

What does the survey ask?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the context here. My understanding is that cable internet is available at your address, which would offer speeds substantially above 5 megabit, but you're claiming that you can only get speeds under 5 megabit because DSL coverage isn't as good, and you don't like cable...?

Not what he said at all..
quote:
In my "served area", with my 16 other neighbours who are in similar circumstances, we can't get DSL, cable, nor wireless point to point. Phone line quality sucks as well.

We are left with Xplornet Satellite, and/or Bell cellular 3G (LTE does not cover my location as we are too far from the tower). Rogers gets 1 bar or so cellular.
quote:
I would accept either cable or DSL internet as long as it met my needs. I would expect the program to provide me with one choice.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz

MVM

said by resa1983:

Not what he said at all..

Except you're not quoting the person who I'm replying to, nor does that person even live in the same city, so I don't see how it's relevant... DKS appears to qualify for high speeds on cable, but seems to be arguing that the map is incorrect in saying so because he doesn't like cable.

This would seem to be analogous to saying that my home qualifies only for 10 megabit speeds even though I have 60 meg cable.