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resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983 to Guspaz

Premium Member

to Guspaz

Re: Industry Canada: Digital Canada 150 Program - Corporate boondoggle????

Sorry, thought you were replying to OP.
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

JMJimmy to jumpingryan

Member

to jumpingryan
That's nothing - you should see what they did in PEC. Picton was served via a microwave tower with fibre running off it to provide DSL/cable for the largest town in the area (~5000). KrappyOnlineServices had wireless up for at least a decade.

»goo.gl/maps/Qx7dZ

They ran a new fibre line from Belleville all the way down hwy 62, stop at hwy1 and cut across instead of running it near Bloomfield (~600 minimum) and then continue along hwy 62 to Picton. Here's the kicker: not a single home got served by it. It was reserved for city hall's use only. The original plan was to run 3 fibre lines and hook up 10+ towns with DSL (~30-40,000 people). Instead they bring in Xplorenet to offer wireless services that overlap with KOS and degrade performance for both.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to Guspaz

to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

What does the survey ask?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the context here. My understanding is that cable internet is available at your address, which would offer speeds substantially above 5 megabit, but you're claiming that you can only get speeds under 5 megabit because DSL coverage isn't as good, and you don't like cable...?

The map allows all addresses to be corrected. It's a data gathering too. I simply submitted that I can't get DSL greater than 5 meg, which is what the map says is available. Cable may be higher speed, but it is a) more expensive and b) less reliable. This is about correcting information, nothing more.
DKS

DKS to Guspaz

to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

said by resa1983:

Not what he said at all..

Except you're not quoting the person who I'm replying to, nor does that person even live in the same city, so I don't see how it's relevant... DKS appears to qualify for high speeds on cable, but seems to be arguing that the map is incorrect in saying so because he doesn't like cable.

This would seem to be analogous to saying that my home qualifies only for 10 megabit speeds even though I have 60 meg cable.

What is not clear here? The map says +5 meg DSL is available. It's not. The matter of cable is irrelevant.
DKS

DKS to jumpingryan

to jumpingryan
said by jumpingryan:

While this funding will perhaps spur some interest in cable expansion, I just don't know how interested Rogers and/or Cogeco are in expansion of cable.... particularly Cogeco. I don't know much about Quebec and out west based offerings however.

Rogers is not interested in expansion except through acquisition of smaller cable systems. They are investing millions in HDTV for their cable systems as we speak, especially for hockey.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to DKS

Premium Member

to DKS
No, the map says that DSL equal to or greater than 5Mbit/s is available.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to jumpingryan

MVM

to jumpingryan
Maybe I'm missing something, but the map doesn't say anything about DSL or cable at all. It says *internet service* is available at those speeds. In fact, the site specifically mentions that this includes DSL, cable, and wireless.
jumpingryan
join:2008-07-27
Pembroke, ON

jumpingryan

Member

said by Guspaz:

Maybe I'm missing something, but the map doesn't say anything about DSL or cable at all. It says *internet service* is available at those speeds. In fact, the site specifically mentions that this includes DSL, cable, and wireless.

There are two requests for submission with this program..

One is from consumers for their speed... Above and below 5 Mbps and your postal code is about all they want from consumers. An email from IC the are technology neutral, but the responder reported they are aiming for the old standard of 1.5?? Perhaps a mistake??

My area, after 3 days of daily speed tests doesn't meet the 5 Mbps threshold at 3.5. My main issue isn't speed... I can handle the same speed if I had DSL/cable. It is the cellular caps that cost me a fortune... We use 40 gigs a month at a self meters level. What good is a fast car if you can't afford to drive it around town?

My other issue is that I have found 6 addresses so far that have DSL 5 MBps, including two that have 25 Mbps in "under served" areas that are eligible for funding. My address is in a "served" area and therefore not eligible for funding, unless we fight to get it changed.

You are right Guspaz about some of the areas not having anything except maybe satellite... Espically in Northern Quebec and Ontario.... They should definitely come before my cell tower area... And if they get 25 Mbps, good on them! I strongly disagree with the decision to cut my area out of the funding eligibility.

Reading the ISP page of the Digital Canada 150, the requests for info are different from ISPs and much more detailed.

From the ISP they want speed, technology (they even highlight the difference between wireless and mobile wireless), bandwidth caps, and cost, and information about overages.

Challenges the government will likely have to overcome to make this program effective:

The ISP's probably won't report accurately, and possibly overstate or understate their numbers to suit them. Perhaps upgrade that 25 Mbps to 50 in Wilno using taxpayer dollars.

Also an issue likely ongoing is people who are under reporting.... Or trying to angle two landline providers. It's already been suggested in the forum... Someone is not happy with their 10 Mbps cable in their supposed under served area, reports crap speeds, and helps Bell get some cash for DSL.

That's why I liked Guspaz's plan of XXXXX dollars per household (excluding all new construction)... I even thought up the idea that if it isn't a incumbent, the amount doubles or triples to encounage the small guys.

This could be done in conjunction with the existing program... Reserve the existing one for areas below a set population density... The really small areas where more than XXXXX amount per household would be needed. This program is about levelling the urban-low density-rural divide, but not necessarily eliminating it.

Cities will always have better choice and access, but getting rural areas to even 10 Mbps landline will really enhance things for them... As their current offerings offer such low caps or weather dependant service that make the internet not useable.
jumpingryan

jumpingryan to DKS

Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

said by jumpingryan:

While this funding will perhaps spur some interest in cable expansion, I just don't know how interested Rogers and/or Cogeco are in expansion of cable.... particularly Cogeco. I don't know much about Quebec and out west based offerings however.

Rogers is not interested in expansion except through acquisition of smaller cable systems. They are investing millions in HDTV for their cable systems as we speak, especially for hockey.

Neither is Cogeco in my area... They are actually only about 2 Kmart away from me as well. I had a business rep over to check out expansion plans, he was new to the job... He said they would look at it especially since Bell doesn't offer DSL here.

He later sent me a short email stating they were not interested.

I almost get the impression Cogeco is dying slowly, and the Bell expansion in the cites and rural areas will only hurt it more.

Bell is actually playing this pretty smart despite their nonchalant attitude towards expanding to me.... Bring in new technology that TPIA providers can't get in on for a few years, and lock in areas wherever they can. Look the part for the CRTC and they will stay off of Bell's case a little.

Slow drag in areas that have wireless to expand profits as well.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

said by jumpingryan:

I almost get the impression Cogeco is dying slowly, and the Bell expansion in the cites and rural areas will only hurt it more.

Bell is actually playing this pretty smart despite their nonchalant attitude towards expanding to me.... Bring in new technology that TPIA providers can't get in on for a few years, and lock in areas wherever they can. Look the part for the CRTC and they will stay off of Bell's case a little.

Cogeco is already having a difficult enough time competing in areas where Bell has VDSL and Fibe TV. Now that Bell is starting to skip VDSL and is going right to FTTH in rural areas around Niagara and Eastern Ontario Cogeco is going to find themselves getting utterly crushed, with the added benefit that the tech is locked up for the next while. I'm okay with this - for now, anyway.
jumpingryan
join:2008-07-27
Pembroke, ON

jumpingryan

Member

Update to this...

1) Letter has been sent to MP and Industry Minister requesting a change in status/re-classification to un served.

2) Further research & messing around with the for Canadians side of the page, you will clearly see at the top if you are eligible.

When I enter addresses that have 5/1 or 25/10 service from Bell in an area that is eligible for future upgrades:

"North Algona Wilberforce

This area may be eligible.

Data shows that this area has broadband access at speeds below 5 MBPS and may be eligible for support under the Connecting Canadians program."

The above statement came from an address that has 25/10 DSL.

3) If you are in a served area, regardless if you even have broadband or not (such as mine), it will state:

"Data shows that this area is well served by ISPs delivering high-speed broadband Internet."

--------

I am now up to 5 physical addresses that have DSL service of either 5/1 or 25/10 that are eligible for future upgrades. Thanks to those who pointed me in the right directions.

If anybody has any more suggestions of places to look, let me know.

Ryan
jumpingryan

jumpingryan

Member

I was just wondering what people would think of Industry Canada, instead of asking people their speed (likely people under/overstate their stats).... the Minister should have considered adding a functional speed test linked to the input the person gives WRT to their address....

Of course, the speed test company have had to have been awarded the contract through open competition, but I am sure that official stats, from a responsible third party could avoid biased assessments through inaccurate reporting.

R

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues to jumpingryan

Premium Member

to jumpingryan
The Pinhead minister will simply push it down to the peons who are running the program. He's too busy doing his masters bidding and smearing the opposition.
jumpingryan
join:2008-07-27
Pembroke, ON

jumpingryan

Member

Click for full size
Recent work.
Click for full size
Several year old repair
There have been some updates my progress with navigating the Digital Canada 150 program, and overall quest to get some sort of wired internet access.

1) I wrote a personalized letter to our MP and the Minister of Industry to highlight concerns with the program as to how the Hex-ID's are classified. I did get a response from both and I will highlight a section from the response:

"Over the course of the summer, Industry Canada consulted with Canadians and Internet service providers to update national Internet service coverage maps. In some cases, while our national broadband map shows that service is available in a given area, some residents in that area have reported that they may not have access to high-speed Internet service or vice versa. Once we have incorporated Canadians’ feedback and refined our data, we will prepare the launch of the Connecting Canadians call for applications later in the fall. Projects that propose to extend or enhance coverage to underserved households will be eligible under the program, even if the hexagon in which they are located is depicted on the maps as “served” overall.

Once again, thank you for providing detailed information on the coverage in your riding. Connecting Canadians program engineers are undertaking a detailed examination in your area and have been in contact with local service providers to collect more ample information on the nature of coverage in Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke."

It was actually a pretty good response from the minister, and seemed to emphasize that areas that have service lower than the standard are eligible.

2) Unfortunately, bureaucracy is still the king of politics in some ways...

My area is still designated by the updated map as served despite providing my 2-4 Mbps speed tests for me and 16 of my neighbours. I guess that means my neighbours and I are part of the 2 percenters for a while... the 2% who won't be provided the minimum broadband standard.

I received an email from the Director General - Connecting Canadians Branch stating they had updated the coverage map to reflect newly eligible and not eligible areas. Unfortunately my area is still not eligible.

"If you have not already done so, you are encouraged to visit the Connecting Canadians website to see if your area is shown as having service at 5 Mbps. If the map or an Internet speed test shows that you do not have access to service at 5 Mbps, you may wish to contact the Internet service providers listed in the Connecting Canadians search engine to discuss the possibility of extending high-speed Internet access to your area."

It is a interesting statement, since I have been contacting all kinds of ISP's for a while... from NRTC, Cogeco, to Bell to anybody.

Even with the previous assurances from the Minister, nobody is interested... however I actually was able to NRTC to actually communicate with someone... to their credit, they did approach their GM who ended up giving a firm no.

My 16 neighbours and I currently have the best internet available for my area... a Bell Turbo hub at $7 to $10 a gigabyte and 2-4 Mbps. Some chose satellite, which I had for 1 year....

Xplornet lived up to it's reputation of being a poor provider of service to the most desperate of customers.... those with no other hope.

I had provided Industry Canada my spreadsheet with discrepancies of coverage in my area (ie. an underserved area who has confirmed address of say 25 Mbps coverage). I have since updated the sheet to reflect the government's newly updated area.

»docs.google.com/spreadsh ··· =sharing

It appears that at least 6 areas that currently have some damn good internet coverage will be getting taxpayer funding Fibe TV upgrades, as it is all Bell that has the infrastructure in those areas.

Bell is really taking the taxpayer for a ride on this issue by likely reporting some outdated numbers to areas with infrastructure just recently put in place.

I strongly suspect this sort funding manipulation is going on throughout the country, as ISP's report inaccurate numbers in order to get funding. I also further suspect that a disproportionate amount of funding will also go to upgrading cellular towers to provide the most profitable internet service.

I also did up a sheet of what ISP's Industry Canada states serves my area:

»docs.google.com/spreadsh ··· =sharing

It is actually pretty interesting.... companies that don't even serve my area on there, or companies that charge the exact same price as each other. They did update as compared to a few months ago, as they had ones that didn't even serve in my province (only the Quebec side about 20 KM away)

Some competitive market.... two choices, both absolute crap.

Anyways, it appears my neighbourhood is close to having no hope for a single wired provider other than perhaps forming our own ISP.... however I don't think I have the time to manage that.

3) The wife and I are considering selling and moving to a more internet friendly area. Curiously, we will likely be going more rural to get landline access, and might even be upgrading to more acreage and a nicer house (and far bigger garage), all while only being 10 to 15 KM farther from the city center. It might be worth it actually as we could technically still have far less household expenses.

Our last months internet bill was $472 for the month - a total of 50 gigs usage at 3 Mbps. I could easily put the internet savings towards a far nicer house that has wired internet.

After a quick MLS search, and some Bell website checking, one house I know is for sale reportedly has FTTH, and is on 40 plus acres (about 10 KM from me). Another, in a different area, about 15 KM from me.... 200 acres with high speed wired coverage. There are some great offerings in the right rural areas actually.

It is pretty sad that we are considering doing this... but in our area, we see no evidence of upgrades... nothing. No pad for a 7330, no sign of anything. All around us, FTTN, FTTH. Within KM's of us.... but nothing for my neighbourhood.

4) I am going to assume for now my neighbourhood will be in the 2 percenters that the government or ISP's won't help until at least 2020, and leave stranded with cellular and satellite offerings (satellite has too high a latency for my wife's VPN connection, and cellular is barely working here).

5) Haven't heard back from the FTTH 20/20 dedicated business Bell rep in about a month. The cost was to be $600 a month with as of yet unknown build out costs on a 3 year term.

I have a feeling this might be a dead proposal from a salesman who isn't quite in tune with the business side of things yet, and perhaps the costs of build out.

6) Just wanted to end the update with some pictures of both old and new repairs of my area to emphasize some of the likely challenges with the current setup.

I snapped these while out walking my daughter.... not too sure when the recent one work was done... I know four wheelers use the area to cross, and I wonder if some drunk 4 wheeler hit it!!! Around here drinking, hunting, and quadding seem to go hand in hand!

Note these are repairs to the landline voice infrastructure only, as DSL and cable aren't offered on my lines. By the looks of things, we are almost due for landline updates alone!

While I am sure the Bell techs are working hard to keep things afloat, however, it is pretty sad when things look like this. I know the techs don't have much say in upgrades....
redgrandam
join:2010-08-10
London, ON

redgrandam to jumpingryan

Member

to jumpingryan
Much like OP, I'm stuck with Xplornet as my only option. The map shows that my area would benefit.

But what does that mean exactly? Any way I can get real Internet because of this anytime soon?
jumpingryan
join:2008-07-27
Pembroke, ON

jumpingryan

Member

said by redgrandam:

Much like OP, I'm stuck with Xplornet as my only option. The map shows that my area would benefit.

But what does that mean exactly? Any way I can get real Internet because of this anytime soon?

If your area can benefit (you are considered an underserved area), contact local companies and ask about service, and reference the program.

They we will entitled to 50% of the build out if they apply to provide more than 5 Mbps. I would suggest contacting wired providers only, as you don't want Xplornet trying to get funding... as they will deliver more garbage.

My area is considered "served" despite the challanges to my neighbourhood. What it is, is ISP's claim to have covered here and there with whatever speed, and unfortunately my area is screwed (it receives zero funding).

Good luck!