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Nemesis158
CTL 1G Fiber
join:2012-09-15
Spokane, WA

Nemesis158

Member

Asking my WISP to change their backhaul?

Hello, a few months ago I couldn't take using the crappy Centurylink DSL we have out where I live, and after continually asking them, i only got a response that they had absolutely no plans to upgrade the equipment in my area (160+ dsl users on a DSLAM served by 8 T1 copper circuits, or roughly 12mb/s of total bandwidth). So I decided to call up another one of the WISP's that serve my area, of which there are three:
Cougar Wireless, Priority Terabit (advertised as Ptera), and Air-Pipe.
Air-Pipe's service speeds and pricing would have been worse than what i was getting on centurylink so I made no point in asking them.
I had previously had Ptera come out and do a site survey and they found no signal (though they might have if they had checked from the roof, but noone was home when they did the survey).
So I called Cougar Wireless, and after alot of trial and error, they were able to pick up a signal on their 5GHz Ubiquiti Rocket M5 dish, from one specific spot on our roof (the only view of any of the 3 provider's APs is very limited by geography and trees).

So after a hefty install fee, i am now paying $85/mo for 6/2 service, with a 20MB "boost", meaning the service operates at the maximum attainable speed for the first 20MB of any connection (though i have seen it go 40MB before dropping to 6mb/s)

Anyways, Cougar wireless advertises their main rural services as "Cougar Fiber Unleased" or CFI for short and there are no data caps. So far i have been mostly happy with the service as compared to what i was using, since i can now use the internet and most things alot better than i could before, with two exceptions.

The first, i noticed, was Gaming.
While my base pings are far lower (the old qwest hardware used DSL packet interleave so my pings were already fairly high), i notice the ping times are VERY jittery. if i run a ping to google, for example, 100 times in cmd, i might get a low ping of 10-20ms, but its varies widely and generally jumps between 40-80ms and i end up with an average of 50ms. sometimes it will even jump up several 100s of ms.




Reported Pings in game seem to be a bit more steady, apart from the occasional spike, but I notice now that the games themselves seem to be far more jittery than before, almost as if the packet flow is not only being aggregated at different times, but as if some of the packets aren't even arriving in the correct order. I notice this most heavily in games like BF3/4, while moving it seems to jump around quite a bit.

The second issue i see happen, mostly during peak usage hours is a lack of available bandwidth. Ill see my downloads drop and stay around 3 or 4mb/s for quite a while during peak usage hours, and im fairly certain this is partly due to who Cougar wireless uses for their backhaul and data transport.

A trace route command reveals that Cougar Wireless uses a Comcast Business fiber connection.




This irks me because of several things:
1. the only two residential land line broadband companies operating in my town are Comcast and Centurylink
2. There are other back haul providers who could be better suited to Cougar Wireless' and their customer's needs, such as TW Telecom and Level 3
3. Comcast isn't a Tier 1 network, and their network for my area is especially bad because it is bottle-necked by only having connections to other networks in two places, Portland OR and Seattle WA. The way Comcast routes their traffic also affects the quality of the connection in some ways.

TL;DR, my WISP uses Comcast for Backhaul/Data transport and I find it reduces the quality of the service. I have seen data that would seem to prove Comcast's network is to blame for some of these problems, and I think my WISP could serve it's customers needs much better if it can find another transport provider, so I'm wondering:

1. are ping issues like this generally the norm for this type of broadband connection?
2. How common is this type of data transport situation among other WISPs in the US
3. How can I approach my WISP about finding a solution that benefits both them as a business and their customers?

Thanks for reading and any help you might have
-Nemesis158

WHT
join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX

WHT

Member

said by Nemesis158:

my WISP uses Comcast for Backhaul/Data transport and I find it reduces the quality of the service. I have seen data that would seem to prove Comcast's network is to blame for some of these problems, and I think my WISP could serve it's customers needs much better if it can find another transport provider.

2. How common is this type of data transport situation among other WISPs in the US
3. How can I approach my WISP about finding a solution that benefits both them as a business and their customers?

1) reduces the quality of the service.
2) Comcast's network is to blame for some of these problems

Two different things...
WISPs have SLA and I would find it have to believe Comcast intentionally degrades service.
Comcast's network may be to blame, but more likely the WISP doesn't buy sufficient bandwidth

Cable companies usually have the best deal for WISPs, telco is usually higher.

Asking them to upgrade, much less change is not likely going to get you the answer you want....
They may have long term commitments and can't bail out from their current provider.
They may have special agreements or discounts they can't get anywhere else.
They likely have researched their options quite well.
It may takes months to set up a new provider - it isn't a flip the switch sorta thing.
ITGeeks
join:2014-04-20
Cleveland, OH

ITGeeks

Member

That SLA depends on what type of contract/deal the WISP has worked out. If it's on standard coax, then no, they don't have a true SLA. If they are on the Comcast fiber network, then yes they would have the SLA.
Nemesis158
CTL 1G Fiber
join:2012-09-15
Spokane, WA

Nemesis158

Member

im not suggesting that comcast is intentionally trying to slow the WISP down, but as we have seen from all the recent news surrounding comcast/twc merger and comcast+verizon refusing to upgrade peering points to make netflix pay them for the content their users already paid them to access, we know these actions affect all the people using the service, whether business class or residential.

I'm not looking for a quick "flip the switch" response either. My main concern is that the users of this ISP could continue to see a decline in their service if Comcast/twc/Verizon get their way with the whole "fast lane/slow lane" stuff, and most of them wouldn't have any idea it wasn't the WISP's fault (cougar wireless doesn't outright tell anyone they use Comcast for transport).

as far as bandwidth is concerned, i find it hard to believe that Comcast could even provide enough bandwidth for a WISP as large as this one whilst not being a tier one provider. even if they could, i find it harder yet to believe that any agreement with Comcast could be cheaper than a direct peering/transport provider like Level3.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog to Nemesis158

Member

to Nemesis158
What makes you think they are using anything more than a cable modem? If they are there is your answer - cost. Right or wrong it comes down to the almighty dollar.
ITGeeks
join:2014-04-20
Cleveland, OH

ITGeeks to Nemesis158

Member

to Nemesis158
You do realize that Comcast does supply dark fiber to other ISPs right? You do realize they sell peering as well too right? LiquidWeb is one of their peers and who purchases wholesale transit to. TWC, Charter, Mediacom and alike will do this. I know of a large ISP in Michigan that peers and purchases dark fiber from Charter. And they also compete against them. They do the same with Comcast, and compete against them.

Comcast is also a tier 1 provider. They may not be worldwide but yes, they are a tier 1 provider.

Also it is against the Comcast terms of service for anyone to resell cable modem service.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog

Member

said by ITGeeks:

Also it is against the Comcast terms of service for anyone to resell cable modem service.

Doesn't mean its not happening.
ITGeeks
join:2014-04-20
Cleveland, OH

ITGeeks

Member

True, but Comcast is smart enough to pick up on most of it by the traffic patterns.
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog to Nemesis158

Member

to Nemesis158
I know a WISP that has been running 100 customers on one for three years now... Makes it hard with an uneven playing field.
Nemesis158
CTL 1G Fiber
join:2012-09-15
Spokane, WA

Nemesis158 to ITGeeks

Member

to ITGeeks
According to this: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ti ··· _network
tier 1 providers in the US are: AT&T, Centurylink, Cogent, GTT, Level 3, Sprint, Verizon and XO.
Comcast is listed as Tier 2 provider here: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ti ··· _network.
Do i know if this information is factual and/or up to date? No. But the nature of how Comcast has grown over the years and how poorly their network routes traffic (at least in the PNW) leads me to believe that it is not, in fact, a Tier 1 network, And I haven't come across anything else stating otherwise.
Nemesis158

Nemesis158 to wirelessdog

Member

to wirelessdog
If you look back at the traceroute, it shows the first hop on the comcast network resolving as "HFC.comcastbusiness.net" which would lead one to beleive it is a direct fiber optic connection, like the WISP advertises..
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog to Nemesis158

Member

to Nemesis158
Its been a long time since I checked but last I looked Comcast uses Level 3. I didn't think they were a tier 1 provider either.