 LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA
4 recommendations |
LazMan
Premium Member
2014-Aug-13 8:58 am
Re: [Electrical] downed power lineHere's a little food for thought about why many departments (as I said, I don't know any that still do, anymore) don't pull meters... Check out this video from a grow-up in the Toronto area - about 5:15 they show where the basement wall was cored, and the meter bypassed. » www.hgtv.ca/video/gone+t ··· 49398786Here's a less subtle modification to a meter base: 
Here's what the industry association book "Electrical Safety Handbook for Emergency Responders" has to say about it... Published in 2003. 
Lastly; this is taken straight from the IFSTA (International Fire Service Training Association) "Essentials of Firefighting" textbook; and has been presented as such for at least 10 years. Jones & Bartlett (Fundamentals of FF) provides similar guidance. 
If there's a department out there still pulling meters, they aren't keeping up with current best practices in the industry, and safety guidance/regulations... And the officers, chief, and training staff will be in a world of hurt, legally and liability-wise, if or when someone get's hurt. But hey, I'm a Captain in suppression, a trainer/facilitator, and instruct HazMat and Utility Emergency courses; my job before becoming a Firefighter was with Utility providers (electrical and telco) - what do I know on the topic...  |
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 IowaCowboyLost in the Supermarket
Premium Member
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA ·Comcast XFINITY
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Whoever messed with that meter was lucky they didn't get cooked when doing it. Here in the states, the lines in the meter socket and up to the main breaker are ALWAYS live. Maybe Canada requires disconnects elsewhere.
When messing with a panel you have to exercise care not to touch the lines coming in as those are always hot unless the poco pulls the meter. To work in a meter socket the poco has to cut it at the pole or the handhole. And I'm sure they're not going to roll a truck for anyone other than an licensed electrician and a licensed electrician isn't going to put his license on the line for a grow light operation. |
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said by IowaCowboy:Whoever messed with that meter was lucky they didn't get cooked when doing it. Here in the states, the lines in the meter socket and up to the main breaker are ALWAYS live. Maybe Canada requires disconnects elsewhere.
When messing with a panel you have to exercise care not to touch the lines coming in as those are always hot unless the poco pulls the meter. To work in a meter socket the poco has to cut it at the pole or the handhole. And I'm sure they're not going to roll a truck for anyone other than an licensed electrician and a licensed electrician isn't going to put his license on the line for a grow light operation. My mother had a new panel and mast put in last week, they worked hot, Scariest thing was a jumper cable apparatus with no fuses they used to get power while they were setting everything up. |
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LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA |
to IowaCowboy
No, there's no disconnects on your average residential or light commercial service here, either... MDU/MTU and commercial/industrial, there may be, but not always. With a few minor exceptions, the electrical grid and standards are pretty comparable. It's entirely possible to work hot - happens every day. I still do consulting and contract work on UPS, generator, and DC power for essential and life-safety systems; and most is done live. I've cut in 3000A bus-bar extensions hot; to support moving a switchboard, for instance - it's all about preparation, planning, tools and techniques. You can't take all the risk away, you just minimize it. As for the jumpers in the meter pan - a bit gutsy for an amateur, but certainly doable... A set of gauntlets, insulated screwdriver, some insulated matting, and do the load side first, then land the line side, after making sure there was no loads connected.  |
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 ilikeme
Premium Member
join:2002-08-27
Stafford, TX |
to LazMan
In my area, when new installations or panel replacements are done, a disconnect is required to be installed outside by the meter if the main panel is indoors. |
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Termites to Subaru
Anon
2014-Dec-24 7:23 am
to Subaru
Concrete doesn't Melt... |
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| Termites |
Termites
Anon
2014-Dec-24 7:35 am
I replied to someone on the first page then I seen the Bypassed meter you do that in Georgia USA or anyother state that's theft of utilities and can get you prison time.firefighters pull meters all the time here. |
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harald
join:2010-10-22
Columbus, OH |
to TheMG
the recloser was invented for another purpose. In coal mines, a fault that trips out the breaker outside of the mine has to be corrected by walking into the mine, clearing the fault, and walking back out to reset it. (I'm talking early 1900"s).
E. C. Raney was the young power plant operator who invented the fix. He went on to invent the first domestic refrigerator thermostat, and the control for the first fresh air auto heater (Nash Weather eye) I went to high school with his grandkids, had the pleasure of working for his firm.
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to Msradell
said by Msradell:said by LazMan:Yes - not many departments pull meters anymore; so the PoCo comes to make things safe for us... that may be the case in your area but in many places it has become SOP for the fire department to pull the meter if there is an actual fire in a structure and they cannot easily access the main breakers. This obviously makes operations much safer for the fire department personnel and they don't have to wait for the PoCo to respond, which in many cases is quite an extended period of time. said by Lazman: We get priority, yes; but it's not magic - it can still take 30 minutes or more to get a hydro/utility truck on scene, and can take some time to isolate power, if that's required... That's what would happen here in my very rural area. The structure would be destroyed while the fire dept stand watching and waiting for the POCO. The VFD does pull meters here. |
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Jack in VA
1 edit |
to TheMG
said by TheMG:said by ttiiggy:Some meters just have an inductance loop to determine how much power is being used. The power still flows with the meter out. Aren't those typically only used on larger (>200A) services? I've never seen a standard 100A/200A single-phase service use a CT meter. Here CT's are generally used on some commercial and industrial services but not on residential. I have a standard meter and I have a 300 amp service. Just a larger meter pan. |
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rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA |
to Termites
Its been twenty years since i was a fireman. But part of training involved going off to the poco to learn how to do disconnects at the meter. We were also trained how to lop it off at the house service loop. I cant imagine any fire department waiting during a structure fire for the electric company to show up. Down lines sure, but structure fires? |
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said by rody_44: Its been twenty years since i was a fireman. But part of training involved going off to the poco to learn how to do disconnects at the meter. We were also trained how to lop it off at the house service loop. I cant imagine any fire department waiting during a structure fire for the electric company to show up. Down lines sure, but structure fires? Years ago when I was in the VFD that's what we did also. The POCO trained us the same way on how to disconnect the meter and lop the feed. I can't imagine any fireman sitting and watching a building burn waiting on the POCO like has been posted earlier. They might as well not respond at all. |
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LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA |
LazMan
Premium Member
2014-Dec-24 11:45 am
No one has said the FD stands around watching, except you, Jack... Several active firefighter's have even said otherwise.
Pulling meters is not considered a current best practice; and is advised against by every training body I know.
20 years ago was a different story, sure - but for at least the last decade, we've trained against pulling meters.
But I give up... |
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1 edit |
You're in Canada a completely different mental culture apparently. If you're waiting for the POCO and not pulling the meter then you must be standing around waiting. What do you do if there's someone inside? Still wait for the POCO?
We still do whatever we can to save lives and put out property on fire. Pulling a meter in itself is not a hazardous action. Here they pull the meter and attack the fire. Using long handled cutter to lop off the feed makes the meter a moot point anyway.
I've pulled my meters several times over the years to check connections. When finished I just called the POCO to stop by and replace the seal. |
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AVonGauss
Premium Member
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL |
to IowaCowboy
said by IowaCowboy:In many areas (particularly high crime areas), the poco will install locking devices on the meter to prevent meter tampering/theft of electricity on the meter. My meter (and most of the meters in the area) have a locking ring that only the poco has tools to remove. If a firefighter tries breaking in, they run the risk of electrocution. Fire departments typically have equipment sufficient to cut through an auto chassis to free trapped individuals after a crash. Whatever locking mechanism you can envision would be short work for the FD to cut off. |
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 pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE |
Cutting through the metal is not the issue. The problem comes trying to cut the collar off and not break the glass meter. A broken meter could potentially expose live conductors. For sure it will make gripping the meter more difficult. said by AVonGauss:Whatever locking mechanism you can envision would be short work for the FD to cut off. |
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 robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX |
to Jack in VA
said by Jack in VA: You're in Canada a completely different mental culture apparently. If you're waiting for the POCO and not pulling the meter then you must be standing around waiting. What do you do if there's someone inside? Still wait for the POCO?
We still do whatever we can to save lives and put out property on fire. Pulling a meter in itself is not a hazardous action. Here they pull the meter and attack the fire. Using long handled cutter to lop off the feed makes the meter a moot point anyway. Perhaps where you live. In the VFD I was in from about 1990 - 2005 here in central Texas we never touched either a meter or disconnect. By the time we were setup, the POCO was always there. We certainly didn't carry equipment to cut an energized cable. We also did not wait for electrical disconnect to enter and rescue. What you describe would not have been condoned by either the POCO or our insurance company or any chief or other responsible individual in our operating area. |
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LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA
3 recommendations |
LazMan
Premium Member
2014-Dec-24 2:31 pm
Robbin - Jack's somehow fixated on FD's not entering until the meter is pulled; despite having been told otherwise several times by myself, and others...
Heath & Safety regs, industry best practices, and NFPA codes are clear; FD's (VFD or career) are no longer to be pulling meters. That some departments still do says more about their training and operating guidelines not being upto current standards, then anything else...
I just give up. |
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 Subaru1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT |
to Termites
Uhmm that concrete still has the burn marks from almost 10 months ago when the line went down..
It was one of the primary's from the Hv line
if they want to fix it they pretty much have to replace the section of sidewalk as of right now they have the marks covered with orange cones since it made nice sized divots. |
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4 edits |
to LazMan
said by LazMan:Heath & Safety regs, industry best practices, and NFPA codes are clear; FD's (VFD or career) are no longer to be pulling meters. That some departments still do says more about their training and operating guidelines not being upto current standards, then anything else...
I just give up. |
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to Subaru
Time to get more popcorn and another soda to watch the fireworks  |
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Subaru1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT |
Subaru
Premium Member
2014-Dec-30 10:59 am
That's right! |
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to Termites
I don't know where you live in GA, but the FFs around my neck of the woods don't pull meters.
New construction in my area requires a disconnect at the meter pan.
FFs do not wait to enter a structure unless the circumstances require. |
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 stevek1949We're not in Kansas anymore
Premium Member
join:2002-11-13
Virginia Beach, VA |
to Subaru
This happened in Virginia Beach a couple of months ago. The street had to be repaved afterwards. The power was out for hours to three schools in the area. » twitter.com/JasonWalshWW ··· 58142720 |
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Subaru1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT |
Subaru
Premium Member
2014-Dec-30 12:15 pm
I think they will redo the sidewalk after they build the new Lowes just too much work going on in the area right now |
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 Anonymous_Anonymous
Premium Member
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1 |
to Kearnstd
Not really there was a fire in a unit all they did was shut off the power to the unit via the master circuit breaker. power co did not come out said by Kearnstd:Electricity has to be one of the greatest dangers to a fighterfighter after the usual elements of the fire itself. I bet most power companies must have a special emergency hotline for FDs to call and get a whole street shut off if needed. Or at least I would hope so. |
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