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MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
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join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to TilhasBB

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Re: Help, how to setup Router for Rental Property with TOS Page

Most landlords are too stupid to know that offering internet included in the rent exposes the landlord to all sorts of legal grief, and potentially extra costs from the ISP.

You seem to want to go down this road despite the warnings to the contrary posted here. I suggest you consult with a lawyer who understands copyright law and how your tenants will say that YOU downloaded all the torrents of movies from Voltage or Disney since you're the one who has admin access and can manipulate any logs to implicate them. It'll be a you said vs. they said situation, and Voltage/Disney won't care which of you pays.

If you get sued for copyright infringement we can all say "We told you so".

TilhasBB
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
canada

TilhasBB

Premium Member

I understand the risks and I'm willing to take it.
All the people who are interested complain that they want to move in and have everything ready not have to wait for a tech and have issues.

So, what I'm probably going to do is have everything setup and once the tenant moves in, I would give tell them that they have to transfer the internet to their name within 90 days or else it is cut. I think that is fair. I'd like it to be 7 Days but I've been told anything less than 60 days isn't fair...

So for the first few days that it is under my name, I'd like my ass to be covered
So, i'm thinking getting a router, blocking every single port I can think of that has anything to do with torrent etc etc and tunnel it using a router with Tomato OPENVPN and routing it to a VPN.

Now my question is this, if the person is downloading a torrent from the internet which is going to the Tomato OpenVPN which is getting internet private internet. Isn't that person safe?
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

yyzlhr

Member

Torrents can theoretically use any port so port blocking is not an effective way to stop people from torrenting and you may end up blocking legitimate applications in the process.

If the VPN provider you select doesn't keep logs then yes you'll be safe.

Every service provider is different, and some make it a real PIA to transfer the financial responsibility so this could be another potential headache for you.

Also are the tenants moving in the next day after they sign the lease? If not, they should have ample time to arrange an installation with the ISP of their choice that coincides with their move in date.

If these potential tenants are making a big deal over internet, this is a sign that these people are going to be trouble and they're going to complain about literally everything even if it's not legitimate down the road, or your listing is simply isn't attractive enough/priced competitively and potential renters are leveraging that to get you to give into these ridiculous demands.

smogers
@108.170.167.x

smogers to TilhasBB

Anon

to TilhasBB
said by TilhasBB:

Hello Everyone,

I want to set up internet for a Rental Property that I'm purchasing as it will be part of the lease but I do not want to be responsible if they do any illegal activity on the connection.
How would I go about setting up the internet so they have to visit a page with a TOS agreement they must agree before logging on to the internet, just like in Hotels.
Have the router save their MAC Address, IP, setting time somewhere remotely.

Thank you,

Look at it this way, someone downloads kiddie porn and you will be the one they look at first because your name is on the account, your name is on the property. It will be then up to you to prove you had nothing to do with it that is after they take all your stuff and rip it apart looking for what you downloaded.

TilhasBB
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
canada

TilhasBB

Premium Member

Once they sign the lease I will have them sign a paper that says, the internet is paid till XXX Date and your assuming responsibility for everything on this connection as of this day.

This letter is to insure that you understand that you are responsible for the internet connection as of today and for transferring the name and payment by this date as the provided has been instructed to cancel the internet on this date.

I should be safe. Now I'd rather protect myself further by having a VPN.

So which private vpn internet has no logs?
iamhere
join:2013-01-26
canada

iamhere

Member

Have you spoken with an attorney about any of this? You are seeking legal advice from an internet forum - not even close to a prudent move. And to top it all off, you are disregarding most of what was recommended.

If that makes you feel safe then you are just fine.

TilhasBB
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
canada

TilhasBB

Premium Member

Yup, I've talked to a lawyer and once the signed form that I talked about.

According to them they are signing a waver to take all responsibility and if I ever receive a letter I will just have to forward them a copy of this letter. Unfortunately the lawyer checked with his firm and every other contact he had and he has informed me that nobody has experience with this as it has never happened here in Canada. I was told if there is a case, his law firm would probably take this on probono just for the experience. So I'm safe on that side of things.

But I still want to have my ASS covered even more with the OpenVPN.
Anyone know of a VPN that is outside Canada/US/Europe and they don't keep any logs? Which is reasonably fast.
HELLFIRE
MVM
join:2009-11-25

HELLFIRE to TilhasBB

MVM

to TilhasBB
said by TilhasBB:

Now my question is this, if the person is downloading a torrent from the internet which is going to the Tomato OpenVPN which is getting internet private internet. Isn't that person safe?

Safe... in what sense?

First lesson of VPNs is... they're for SECURE communications over an INSECURE medium, like the internet.
To ascribe any more functionality or Au / Ag bullet powers to them is simply going to screw you over.

Do your research, and read up on what the providers' AUP says -- I would not equate "not keeping logs" to the assumption / statement "well even though I do (patently illegal) activity X that Y can't happen."

In terms of fastest, best thing to do is if they offer a free trial period, give them a shot and do your own speed
and load tests... *PITP
said by TilhasBB:

he has informed me that nobody has experience with this as it has never happened here in Canada. I was told if there is a case, his law firm would probably take this on probono just for the experience.

Best of luck with this if you ever cross this bridge... you're going to need it.

My 00000010bits

Regards

*Proof's In The Pudding

Teddy Boom
k kudos Received
Premium Member
join:2007-01-29
Toronto, ON

Teddy Boom to TilhasBB

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to TilhasBB
said by TilhasBB:

Unfortunately the lawyer checked with his firm and every other contact he had and he has informed me that nobody has experience with this as it has never happened here in Canada.

This is the key. Lots of FUD being spread in this thread, but the fact is nobody knows. Since landlords have been including internet in rent for a decade, that's pretty telling.
said by TilhasBB:

But I still want to have my ASS covered

This may actually be wrong thinking. I mean.. I like having a TOS in a Captive Portal, that seems like good legal ass covering. Instituting a VPN seems like an attempt to evade legal consequences. If the shit did ever hit the fan, such active evasion might not play well

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

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said by TilhasBB:

I understand the risks and I'm willing to take it.

All due respect, you're fucken crazy. These copyright trolls, (assuming CETA and/or TPP go through) will bankrupt you. The money you will lose by lowering the rent and allowing your tenants to get their own service is peanuts compared to what it will cost you.

Folks, I would suggest you stop providing advice, technically speaking (even though we're anonymous) could be liable.

TilhasBB
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
canada

TilhasBB

Premium Member

said by elwoodblues:

said by TilhasBB:

I understand the risks and I'm willing to take it.

All due respect, you're fucken crazy. These copyright trolls, (assuming CETA and/or TPP go through) will bankrupt you. The money you will lose by lowering the rent and allowing your tenants to get their own service is peanuts compared to what it will cost you.

Folks, I would suggest you stop providing advice, technically speaking (even though we're anonymous) could be liable.

Dude, the tenant is signing an agreement that he consents all liability and there would be documentation at the internet provider stating that this has been installed for the convenience of the tenant and that he will be taking responsibility. If it is not taken by X date the internet is set to be cancelled.

On top of this, I will have the internet be set using a VPN.

Why am I doing this open VPN thing? For a few reasons.
During the first few days that the internet is in my name there is a risk and once the tenant leaves, he will transfer the name to me or to the next tenant. So I want to be sure that during those times I'm extra protected.

Is there a risk? Yes but with all the precautions I'm taking, I think the internet is safer than me driving my car to work everyday.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues

Premium Member

"I didn't know what that document was, I though it meant I was liable for damage on the apartment".

"That's not my signature"

"The landlord forced me to sign this or he wouldn't rent to me".

"Mr ThilhasBB, did you modify the logs to hide your own illegal activities?"

Shall I go on?

The very fact that your lawyers can't give you a straight answer, raises red flags to me.

TilhasBB
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
canada

TilhasBB

Premium Member

Weird my response was never posted....

"I didn't know what that document was, I though it meant I was liable for damage on the apartment".
You are required to have your own insurance and internet service once you move in. If this has not been completed and proof shown to the landlord in 30 days you will be evicted 30 days later.

"That's not my signature"
We have a to provide a copy of your Drivers License and Medicare card with a signed agreement allowing us to run a background check. After you have passed the background check, you signed three agreements. One with the landlord, one with regie du logement and one requiring you to get your own internet within 30 days and that you consent to take full responsibility of the internet as of the date you move in. All 5 Signatures match.

"The landlord forced me to sign this or he wouldn't rent to me".
You were informed of the requirements for this apartment and you had known these and signed before moving it. You were not forced to rent this apartment.

"Mr ThilhasBB, did you modify the logs to hide your own illegal activities?"
I have subscribed a service to protect the identify of the tenants. They live in a condo where they have just moved in, I'd like to be proactive in protecting them from identify fraud. The tenant was informed of this and can request me to cancel this service at any time.

Shall I go on?
Yes.
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

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Using a VPN outside Canada is going to cause a lot of problems. Your tenants will be wondering why they may not able to access certain Canadian websites and their email and bank accounts might get locked out due to them thinking it's a suspicious login.

Either way, I don't see how any of this is easier then just reducing the rent by X amount of dollars to accomodate the tenant.

TilhasBB
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
canada

TilhasBB

Premium Member

said by yyzlhr:

Using a VPN outside Canada is going to cause a lot of problems. Your tenants will be wondering why they may not able to access certain Canadian websites and their email and bank accounts might get locked out due to them thinking it's a suspicious login.

Either way, I don't see how any of this is easier then just reducing the rent by X amount of dollars to accomodate the tenant.

You have a good point I will check if I can get internet once I install the VPN.

I understand the tenants, both say they are paying a Premium for this apartment to be furnished and ready the second they move in. They dont want to wait 1-2-3 weeks to have internet. So I agreed to have it installed before they move in but they must get their own internet or take responsibility of the current internet once they move in.

I think that's fair and at the end of the day I'm the owner of the property so there will always be some liability on my end.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues

Premium Member

The banking business happened to me, my Internet connection at work is in Tulsa the other in Oklahoma City.. Try accessing a Canadian bank from those places and see what happens.
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

yyzlhr to TilhasBB

Member

to TilhasBB
Again unless they're moving in the day after the sign the lease, they should have enough time to arrange an installation with an ISP to coincide with their move in date.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook to TilhasBB

Mod

to TilhasBB
Of course the other consideration is that you are reselling the internet service which may be against the Terms of Service of your selected ISP.

TilhasBB
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
canada

TilhasBB

Premium Member

Shit.... I didn't think about that... Althought I'm not charging for it.. so thats gray.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues

Premium Member

said by TilhasBB:

Shit.... I didn't think about that... Althought I'm not charging for it.. so thats gray.

It's included in the rent, so it's very gray

TilhasBB
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
canada

TilhasBB

Premium Member

said by elwoodblues:

said by TilhasBB:

Shit.... I didn't think about that... Althought I'm not charging for it.. so thats gray.

It's included in the rent, so it's very gray

I'm making sure there is no mention of it on the contract.
When they ask I say YES there is high speed internet but you must take it over as it is being cancelled on this date.

Jackorama
I Am Woman
Premium Member
join:2008-05-23
Kingston, ON

Jackorama

Premium Member

You said in earlier posts that everyone wants high speed internet included for the amount of rent you want. Do you really think they are going to accept 90 days of internet included, then get their own internet while still paying the same amount of rent?

Also, you should look into the laws of the Landlord/Tenant Act for your area. Certain contracts and items you list in the lease could be illegal, like the "No Pets" one in my area. Even if it's in the lease you can't stop a tenant from owning a pet unless that pet is stopping other tenants from enjoyment of their rental unit. And there has to be proof of it, not hear say.

Try offering free WiFi, like business and hospitals do. They all have ranges of limitations. One of the main ones is not being able to download torrents. At my local hospital they have fast WiFi and I've been able to email, visit websites, watch Youtube, use FB and download apps for my phone. The only thing I couldn't do was download torrents. I also had to agree to their TOS every time I used the WiFi. Check out how businesses have it set up and just offer free WiFi. If they need to do more on the internet, then they can get their own while still having use of the WiFi.

Just somethings to think about.

TilhasBB
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
canada

TilhasBB

Premium Member

said by Jackorama:

You said in earlier posts that everyone wants high speed internet included for the amount of rent you want. Do you really think they are going to accept 90 days of internet included, then get their own internet while still paying the same amount of rent?

Also, you should look into the laws of the Landlord/Tenant Act for your area. Certain contracts and items you list in the lease could be illegal, like the "No Pets" one in my area. Even if it's in the lease you can't stop a tenant from owning a pet unless that pet is stopping other tenants from enjoyment of their rental unit. And there has to be proof of it, not hear say.

Try offering free WiFi, like business and hospitals do. They all have ranges of limitations. One of the main ones is not being able to download torrents. At my local hospital they have fast WiFi and I've been able to email, visit websites, watch Youtube, use FB and download apps for my phone. The only thing I couldn't do was download torrents. I also had to agree to their TOS every time I used the WiFi. Check out how businesses have it set up and just offer free WiFi. If they need to do more on the internet, then they can get their own while still having use of the WiFi.

Just somethings to think about.

I gave them a 50$ discount for them to provide their own internet. I recommend them staying with the same provider as they don't need to buy a new modem or anything.

The TOS was my initial idea but if you read above its still under my name and I'd have to point the finger back at them.

FiReSTaRT
Premium Member
join:2010-02-26
Canada

FiReSTaRT

Premium Member

Another reason why you wanna reconsider the idea and have their name on the Internet... Most people are IDIOTS... They'll be calling you to fix their Internet every time something goes wrong, whether it's a computer virus, can't figure out how to connect a device to wifi, rf interference, printer low on toner.... They'll be bugging you for EVERYTHING. Even if I lived in the same building, I wouldn't wanna deal with that day in and day out.

bbbc
join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica

bbbc to TilhasBB

Member

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I'm sure this will evoke the cries of fear mongering:
"For example, a couple in the state of New York in early 2011 was implicated in child pornography but later found innocent. While it is true they went through quite an ordeal, investigators were able to find the true culprit in the end -- a 25-year-old college student who lived in nearby apartments and was squatting on their Wi-Fi."

»www.dailytech.com/EDITOR ··· 6362.htm

TilhasBB
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
canada

TilhasBB

Premium Member

What do you guys think of this?

Im going to buy it for myself. At 20$ it's worth it ! lol
Even the free service is pretty fast!

CyberGhost 5 Premium Plus VPN (12M)
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Delivery:electronic
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»store.cyberghostvpn.com/ ··· umPlus14