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battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

2 recommendations

battleop to pumpkinhead7

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Re: Please stop feeding these trolls netflix!

That's how it has always worked. If you send me a 100:1 then you pay me, if I send you 100:1 then I pay you. It's only settlement free if it's close to a 1:1.
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

3 recommendations

HeadSpinning

Member

said by battleop:

That's how it has always worked. If you send me a 100:1 then you pay me, if I send you 100:1 then I pay you. It's only settlement free if it's close to a 1:1.

No eyeball network is ever going to have a 1:1 ratio with a content provider. Maybe the old peering assumptions need to be revisited.

My subscribers are requesting the Netflix traffic. I just need to find a way to deliver it to them as cost effectively as possible.

Without content of whatever variety, the Internet is no where near as useful as it is now.
ITGeeks
join:2014-04-20
Cleveland, OH

ITGeeks to battleop

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to battleop
Right. And this site doesn't get that and wants a law to change that.
ITGeeks

ITGeeks to HeadSpinning

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to HeadSpinning
Well then you'll go to Netflix and tell them to pony up some money or you'll be paying for the peering points you have now to be upgraded.

Netflix needs to pay for their part of what they're using instead of forcing ISPs/Network owners to upgrade on their own dime. Or are you in favor of paying for your upgrades to them and to host their Open Connect devices and allow them to get away without paying anything??? They make money, they admitted they do, now let them pay like any other company would do so and that this site and would be in favor of.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

4 recommendations

Skippy25 to battleop

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to battleop
No, it is not the way it has worked for a ISPs consumer traffic. EVER

This is not a peering/transit dispute that involves these ISPs taking on traffic to traverse the internet and go to some other part of the internet for some other ISP's consumers. It is about the ISPs own consumers consuming bandwidth in which the ISP is 100% responsible for delivering. If they can't do it with their current network, then they either invest in it or leave it how it is and let it suffer.

Your continued BS line of this has been proven wrong over and over and over. It has never been true and never will be true for an ISP to get anywhere near a 1:1 ratio. Especially when they sell their connections with a 30:1 or 5:1 ratio to begin with.

You and your little trollians that continue on with this BS (PlusOne and ITGeeks) know full well that is 100% accurate and truth yet you continue to say otherwise in an attempt to muddy the waters for the industry you all claim to have no relation with and yet want to protect their every anti-consumer anti-good for internet move. Do you think we are all really that blind and stupid?
Skippy25

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Skippy25 to ITGeeks

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to ITGeeks
Netflix isnt using a single resource of the internet on their own. It is 100% of the ISP consumers that cause 100% of all traffic from Netflix.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

1 recommendation

battleop to Skippy25

Member

to Skippy25
"No, it is not the way it has worked for a ISPs consumer traffic. EVER"

This is basic peering 101. I've been doing this stuff since the late 90s in an ISP/CLEC environment. You have been doing it since when?

"It has never been true and never will be true for an ISP to get anywhere near a 1:1 ratio."

Really? I have several peers to other providers that are almost an EXACT 1:1 ratio.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

Skippy25

Member

Not for residential ISP traffic you dont and your anti-consumer pro business view is now fully understood.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

1 recommendation

battleop

Member

So in your world VoIP traffic is not symmetrical?
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

Skippy25

Member

You are kidding right? Your comeback for symmetrical is VOIP? Come back and play the game with something that actually uses a Internet connection.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

1 recommendation

battleop

Member

If you don't understand how VoIP works how can you even begin to comprehend how peering works?
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

Skippy25

Member

Oh, I understand how VOIP works and I know that it uses very little bandwidth.

So you coming here claiming that it helps bring a residential connections sold by ISPs to a 1:1 ratio of traffic is just shear stupidity.

Flyonthewall
@206.248.154.x

Flyonthewall

Anon

This is true, you'd have to talk solidly without sleeping to use GIGS in a month. Compared to an hour of Netflix VoIP over the same time is negligible. Anyone attempting to state VOIP use brings traffic to parity with upload and download is talking out of their exit hole. Most internet usage for residential traffic is almost always higher on the download, sometimes by as much as 100x or more compared to upload.

Did people who started selling Internet not understand how the internet works? Or how people might use it? I think all this arguing about peering is just more smokescreen to protect broadcast tv revenues. Seems likely they would try to fight back on internet streaming on more than just one front.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop to Skippy25

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to Skippy25
One call uses little bandwidth thousands use quite a bit more.
battleop

battleop to Flyonthewall

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to Flyonthewall
You should know this offshoot of the discussion came about when Skippy made the claim that no one would ever have a 1:1 ratio with an ISP. The topic is peering between companies and not about the end user.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

And what I said is 100% true unless the ISP sells them a symmetrical service and allowed them to run some kind of peering or server service behind that connection that had hundreds if not thousands of people from other parts of the internet requesting data from them constantly.

You claiming VOIP in any way helps a residential connection get to a 1:1 connection is shear stupidity even if they were on that call 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Are you not following long? I'm talking about PEERING between two NETWORKS. Not one damn thing I said had anything what so ever to do with the end user's connection.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

I sure am. You are attempting to distort what traffic is an ISP network connecting to (peering with) a backbone provider and traffic of a very large ISP that has the ability to be a backbone provider as well and actually serves as that purpose. I will not let you do that and will point it out every time you or any of your other shillians try to.

Any an all traffic to an ISP subscriber is 100% the responsibility of the ISP to deliver. It does not matter where it comes from or how it gets there. Their subscribers requested it, they are responsible for maintaining a network that deliver it. That connection will NEVER be 1:1, even with your VOIP.

If said ISP is so large that they can also be a provider for some ISPs to reach other parts of the internet that is all fine and dandy. Let them peer away. But that doesn't mean all of a sudden EVERY packet that comes across that node is "peering" traffic as their own subscriber traffic is a part of it.

DocDrew
How can I help?
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join:2009-01-28
SoCal
Ubee E31U2V1
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DocDrew to Skippy25

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to Skippy25
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said by Skippy25:

And what I said is 100% true unless the ISP sells them a symmetrical service and allowed them to run some kind of peering or server service behind that connection that had hundreds if not thousands of people from other parts of the internet requesting data from them constantly.

You mean like enterprise level business customers? Like this sort:
»www.cidr-report.org/cgi- ··· view=2.0
»www.cidr-report.org/cgi- ··· view=2.0

Realize those are just limited snapshots of some connections...

ISPs realize they don't get a break on SFP either. They're making deals to level out their bandwidth ratios too and have been for years.

My big issue with Netflix trying to milk free peering is they can and have changed the bandwidth needed by their video streams. They turned on "Super HD" and without customers really needing to do anything special on compatible devices, Netflix bandwidth requirements jumped up. That is when many ISPs and transit providers started having big issues with these interconnect arrangements. Customers are just requesting videos without any real thought to the bandwidth requirements of Netflix and how they've changed.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop to Skippy25

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"That connection will NEVER be 1:1, even with your VOIP."

Really? Here is one such peering we established a few weeks ago. Looks pretty damn close to 1:1 to me.

"Their subscribers requested it, they are responsible for maintaining a network that deliver it."

Only from the edge of the ISP's network to their end user. Once it leaves the ISP's network it's no longer their problem. If the far end service wants to improve their connection to the target ISP then they need to get with the ISP and make happen. It's not the ISP's responsibility to do that for them.

"If said ISP is so large that they can also be a provider for some ISPs to reach other parts of the internet that is all fine and dandy. Let them peer away. But that doesn't mean all of a sudden EVERY packet that comes across that node is "peering" traffic as their own subscriber traffic is a part of it."

You are confusing Transit and Peering traffic.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

You may want to find another picture there. The one you have now shows probably a 10 or 20:1 ratio for inbound to outbound during actually usage periods with what appears to be a pretty constant outbound connection. While it sits idol in the middle of the night it brings the stats down to attempt to prove your point. Good try though. (LOL!)

I am pretty sure it has been shown multiple times that the backbone providers are perfectly cable of providing the ISPs enough at their edge. Yet to help distort this fact your type continues to say it is not the ISPs that are refusing to upgrade to accommodate the connection of their subscribers, it is the backbone providers. ISPs are responsible for making sure their ports can handle the traffic that their subscribers put on them. The backbone providers are not responsible for giving said ISPs ports to handle their traffic, however the ISPs can buy all the ports they want to help maintain their network at an adequate level. I will not continue to argue this fact with you.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

1 recommendation

battleop

Member

I'm done with you. If you don't know how to read that graph then you won't understand anything else that goes with it.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Blue is outbound, green is inbound. Not too complicated there.

DocDrew
How can I help?
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join:2009-01-28
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DocDrew

Premium Member

said by Skippy25:

Blue is outbound, green is inbound. Not too complicated there.

...and when they overlap completely it displays as a blue line on the top edge of a green graph. Looking at the legend below the graph battleop posted, they show approximately the same traffic amounts.

If the outbound traffic were less, there would be a blue line lower on the graph overlapping the green. It's been pretty standard for a dozen years. Like this:


or this:


10:1 inbound to outbound would look more like this:

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

HeadSpinning to ITGeeks

Member

to ITGeeks
said by ITGeeks:

Well then you'll go to Netflix and tell them to pony up some money or you'll be paying for the peering points you have now to be upgraded.

No, I'm glad Netflix exists, and that it gives my subscribers something to use the Internet for.

I make money from my subscribers. They give my subscribers something to use their Internet connection for. Seems like a good deal for both of us.
HeadSpinning

HeadSpinning to battleop

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to battleop
said by battleop:

Really? Here is one such peering we established a few weeks ago. Looks pretty damn close to 1:1 to me.

10 Mbps peak? Unless it was for low latency VoIP purposes, I wouldn't even bother peering.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

"10 Mbps peak?"

We just started adding customers to this network. The only traffic going across this connection is VOIP. The peer was added to improve the routing between us and them.
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

HeadSpinning

Member

said by battleop:

The only traffic going across this connection is VOIP

Which was my point.