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MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

Witnessed my first TPIA install

A friend of mine had cable internet installed a few days ago.
Rogers tech called about 20 minutes into the install 'window' saying that he'd be there in about 15 minutes, and he did arrive about 15 minutes later.
The tech went to the equipment room in my friends building, connected the feed to his suite (and tagged it as TPIA) and then came to the unit.
The signal strength in the suite was tested and found to be good, and the TSI supplied modem was then installed.
At that point the tech explained that he wouldn't stick around to ensure synch because my friend was a TPIA customer and not a Rogers customer directly, but he did explain what should be seen on the modem in terms of lights & colours and when that should occur.
About 15 minutes after the tech left the modem/circuit was provisioned and the service was up and running at the advertised speeds.

It was a painless experience.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

1 recommendation

sbrook

Mod

"At that point the tech explained that he wouldn't stick around to ensure synch because my friend was a TPIA customer and not a Rogers customer directly"

Now that's just wrong. Considering that if the modem doesn't sync or get an IP, it's gonna come back to Rogers with a 48 hour delay to the customer. This comment should go back to TekSavvy and thence to the CRTC to show the crap that the incumbents pull when doing an install.

OSUGoose
join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH
Apple AirPort Extreme (2013)

OSUGoose

Member

Actually, since the hardware isn't suppled by his employer, his part of the job ends with getting good signal to the jack the TSI modem will be installed at.

Its just like here in the USA, AT&T is only required to get dial tone to the NID for a third party voice or data circuit.
btech805
join:2013-08-01
Canada

btech805

Member

This is true, at Bell all we are responsible for is ensuring dial tone and sync to the jack. I would normally wait until the modem syncs up, but if the customer is being a PITA then my job is done as of that jack.

Whether that is against the crtc or not, I don't know but that is all we are told to do. No wireless set up, no verification of surf on the customer's devices. And definitely no setting up of the VOIP service.

Calero27
join:2014-01-13
Chatham, ON

2 recommendations

Calero27 to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
When Videotron tech installed my service he simply showed me from his device that there was good signal going to the cable outlet, he then advised me he was not allowed to hook my modem up but once I did it would take about 4 hours to activate.

I agree that since it is not vendor equipment that they are dealing with they should not really be touching. All it takes is one tech with butter fingers to drop it while connecting it and the customer is SOL as pretty sure the vendor will not easily pay for a new modem and damage is not something that is covered under warranty.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

I'm not saying that it should be touched by the tech ... but the cable signal being in place does not mean that the cable company has enabled the IP for example.

So, IF the customer has the modem and the modem is connected and the appropriate lights don't turn on, then it's not unreasonable that the tech report back that there is a problem ... please check that the modem credentials are correctly registered.

After that, then troubleshooting by TSI is appropriate. If the customer doesn't have the modem or the ability to check it out, then it's not unreasonable for the tech to take his leave.

Calero27
join:2014-01-13
Chatham, ON

Calero27

Member

When I got Ccable installed the tech got me to hook up my modem, he then called to get it activated. But I think they may be the exception.

I believe most cable installers don't have a way to contact the TPIA department at the vendor to get the modem activated, hence the "it should work in a few hours". Be nice if they would all just call in and get it activated on the spot but may not happen anytime soon.

anon99
@162.219.176.x

anon99

Anon

The tech stayed with me until the lights on my cable modem synched as he was expected to do. The only thing he didn't do was give me a free cable wire from wall to modem.

Im with techsavvy and this was the first cable internet install at my place.

TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium Member
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON

TwiztedZero

Premium Member

said by anon99 :

The only thing he didn't do was give me a free cable wire from wall to modem.

They're supposed to as they're responsible for the plant right up to your modem. At least a good 6ft of RG6 coax in anycase. Especially if there is an old or non existent cable. Anything less than RG6 is not acceptable.

Usually if you have a piece of cable its prudent to remove it and put it out of sight before the tech guy comes. The Fella that hooked mine up left me with a good six feet just long enough to reach my modem from the wall.
cepnot4me
join:2013-10-29
L0C 1K0

cepnot4me to sbrook

Member

to sbrook
In all fairness, we are not supposed to ensure the modem locks up. We do not ensure connectivity or provisioning because that's The responsibility of the TPIA provider. It takes about 60 seconds for a modem to lock up. He could've stuck it out. All we do, is ensure RF is on the line, (measured) then we are out.

Anything to do with the modem, is not the techs responsibility, nor are we even allowed to touch it.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

1 recommendation

sbrook

Mod

In all fairness, cepnot4me, it's ROGERS responsibility to ensure connectivity as far as the YM gateway to the TPIA as well as ensuring the modem is provisioned based on the info provided by the TPIA.

Granted there are limited things a tech can do on that regard on site. But at the same time, it's one thing to say yup I get good TV signals because that's what most techs check. Only some check the signals on the typical channels used for CM. So, check the signal and run isn't always a good thing because it only means he or someone else may have to make a return trip.

And if the signal's there but the modem isn't getting an IP, then it's probably not provisioned ... a quick call to check if it's provisioned and if it is, some debugging then saves a call to the TPIA, all manner of additional troubleshooting and a ticket to Rogers being raised to be dealt with.

It just makes sense, if possible to get the problems sorted with the tech on site instead of having to go through the mill both for the benefit of the TPIA customer but also for Rogers, saving more call outs.

Yeah there are things that may not be up to the tech ... like the modem hasn't actually been provisioned yet. Fair enough, can't do anything about that.
cepnot4me
join:2013-10-29
L0C 1K0

cepnot4me

Member

The policy of "Don't touch the modem, line only" comes after a TPIA provider went after Rogers for damages to a modem after the customer claimed it was broken by the tech who installed it.
And "anything less than RG6" is acceptable. If RG59 is in good working order, it is an acceptable line.

However yes, a jumper is typically provided to go from the wall to the modem. Grey area if it is included in the installation, some TPIA providers choose to provide their own cable (Some times the pin in a piece of Rg6 can damage the F81 in the modem.)
cepnot4me

cepnot4me to sbrook

Member

to sbrook
Unfortunately, that should be the case but it's not. The field techs check the slope, that ensures the upstream/downstream exists. I've been on multiple installs where.

1. TPIA never submitted a MAC to Rogers to provision.
2. Rogers received the wrong mac or customer got the wrong modem.
3. The customer is using an incompatible modem they brought.

The tech, nor the techs field support, can fix this.
It requires a call to the TPIA, which the tech also can't do.

It's not Rogers who screws up a lot of these, despite who TPIAs blame.

The tech covers the line. He is mandated to stop there. It is what it is. And since it's not an RF issue, there is no callback.
cepnot4me

cepnot4me

Member

Also, they've been known to set up the install date for the day after or just any day after the install. The modem doesn't provision until the day AND I've seen time that is arranged.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook to cepnot4me

Mod

to cepnot4me
The biggest problem is that policies like this a) create work for themselves later, and b) create a repeated chain of problems that eventually the CRTC is going to come down on them for as the list gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

As long as Rogers won't allow TPIA techs access to the tools to fix problems and they have to go through that wretched email support team section that does TPIA stuff, it's just going to get worse. You can't have it both ways. If you won't let the TPIA solve some of the problems from the provisioning side, then Rogers and its techs are going to be getting blame for being uncooperative and not doing a job they should.
sbrook

sbrook to cepnot4me

Mod

to cepnot4me
said by cepnot4me:

Also, they've been known to set up the install date for the day after or just any day after the install. The modem doesn't provision until the day AND I've seen time that is arranged.

That's why I said, a quick call to find out if it's provisioned (after all, Rogers techs commonly call to ensure that their own modem installs are provisioned ... so it's not that big a deal!)
btech805
join:2013-08-01
Canada

btech805

Member

Sbrook, while I agree with you that 90% of the time it is only another 60 seconds on site to wait for the modem to sync up, on the DSL orders if a modem isn't provisioned with the proper ppoe information from the provider, who does the subscriber turn to and say it isn't working? The tech. There is nothing we can do about that, and that 10% of the time adds up to a lot of extra time we are not alotted if we do stick around because most people (and myself included) aren't so eager to let a technician leave when a service isn't working. With my multimeter I can verify sync and surf at the jack, that's all we are called to do and I'm sure the Rogers techs are the same. For me I will generally stick around because hey, im paid by the hour so why not. But for most cable techs they are paid by the job (at least the subcontractors in Ottawa are), so if they've done their job ensuring good signal to the jack then I'd be out of there too. An extra 20 or 30 mins in a house they aren't responsible for anyways could be 20 bucks they lose.

If it isn't that then sometimes the modems are shipped without the wifi information or anything so the customer cant even log in because a password has been set by the ISP but they didn't receive the paper advising them of it. I'll admit though that I have never had any of the above mentioned issues with Teksavvy, but there are some small time indies out there that provide next to no information to their customers.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

I agree with you for DSL btech ... but then provisioning the modem is a user activity for DSL, apart from sync no surf issues, the TPIA has the ability to resolve many of the issues.

But I'm talking a cable install here where the Cable operator has total control from the TPIA gateway to the customer's jack and also of the provisioning. And if any part of that isn't done right, then it's often the cable co's job to fix it.
cepnot4me
join:2013-10-29
L0C 1K0

cepnot4me to sbrook

Member

to sbrook
If the modem obtains lock up status, but doesn't allow surfing, it's Provisioning. Sometimes it just needs a few minutes to handshake. Sometimes someone screwed up the paperwork.
When we call our field support, wait times are up to an hour IF we get someone qualified to look into TPIA (or do something about it), all they are doing is telling us it's not provisioned and the customer has to call their provider.
Keeping in mind, the job pays around $8-$14.
When you know that they will need to call their provider, why make the call?

The reason TPIA doesn't have tools to view a node or access to the node (one of them at least) is because of the access they'd have to Rogers Customers modems. We can power cycle Rogers modems via the tools, see every modem on the street and EMTA. This would also give TPIA a mailing list to under sell Rogers own native customers. Now, Rogers can see the TPIA customers as well, but if they target them like that and get caught it's an antitrust lawsuit.

End of the day, the techs do so little not because of Rogers wanting us to, but because ALL work orders and investigation into problems has to come from the TPIA provider. And they are billed accordingly if it isn't Rogers mistake that was made.

It's business and politics that make it the way it is.

TPIA can easily obtain modem stats for troubleshooting if required, light patterns and logs give them a good working knowledge of the issue and who to involve in resolving it. The only thing I'd like to see from the CRTC is mandated real time support from Rogers for tickets.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

said by cepnot4me:

It's business and politics that make it the way it is.

And that's not a reason to say it shouldn't be fixed.

Real time support for TPIA tickets would solve a lot of issues that's for sure ... the work orders and investigation by the TPIA immediately adds at least a 48 hour delay and a lot of hassles for the customer as they go through Rogers mandated troubleshooting steps.

I understand the hassle of the poor paycheque ... but that's not the customer's problem ... it's because Rogers is just too inefficient.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

The reality is that TPIA is not likely to ever be more than 10% of the market - unless the Competition Bureau/CRTC come down hard on the side of functional separation.

That said, 10% of the market is probably 1MM installs or so - split between DSL & cable. If I was an indumbent, I'd invest a little dough in making the troubleshooting process fall more in the lap of TPIA's and give them some tools to work with besides an e-mail address and an answering machine to contact when their customers have issues.

oceros37
join:2013-07-20
St Thomas, ON

1 edit

oceros37 to cepnot4me

Member

to cepnot4me
said by cepnot4me:

The only thing I'd like to see from the CRTC is mandated real time support from Rogers for tickets.

It seems to me like the stance to take would be corporations are people, why can't TPIA's be customers?
Customers get to call for real time support/ticket creation. The incumbents should not be allowed to discriminate between one paying customer (tpia) and another (retail).

I can only assume the incumbents would cry (kind of legitimately so) about the training/staffing costs involved with the added volume of calls. Guess where that cost would get shuffled along to?

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere to MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

....If I was an indumbent, I'd invest a little dough in making the troubleshooting process fall more in the lap of TPIA's and give them some tools to work with besides an e-mail address and an answering machine to contact when their customers have issues.

 
They need something like 'Lantern' is for DSL, but designed instead for troubleshooting Cable.
cepnot4me
join:2013-10-29
L0C 1K0

cepnot4me to oceros37

Member

to oceros37
Not that I'm defending Rogers, don't get me wrong. I HAVE teksavvy.

Is it fair for the government to step in and say "You HAVE to take this customer, AND only at this price " Rogers customer service (even as bad as it is) is provided as a perk or incentive to pay MORE and be with Rogers. They cannot just come in and undercut the TPIAS to win the customers, so the only incentive to being with Rogers is the support and immediate attention Rogers Customers receive.

If you (federally or otherwise) mandate Rogers or Bell to apply the same immediate (or faster) service to TPIA then how can incumbents stay in business? It would make more sense to stop supporting Broadband altogether, put ALL TPIAs out of business AND yourself.

Like I say, it's business and politics. If Rogers had it their way, there would be no TPIA.. but they were legally chokeholded into providing their billion network at a wholesale rate.

So it's proposed that at discounted rates than they can provide their own customers they should also provide better or on par service and troubleshooting to their own competition?

The IDEA and business model with Teksavvy is that you get CHEAPER Internet, by sacrificing the support system and same day repairs provided by Rogers or Bell.

It's a fair trade.

I have to wait 5 days at a minimum to get Bell out on a repair, HOWEVER, I pay $10/month less for that wait which happens few and far between.

That's the business model. And it's fair to me. As a customer, it feels unfair, I want BETTER service at a reduced price (Don't we all?) But if you try to understand the business and politics, it makes sense. It is right.

And before anyone says "Rogers IS undercutting TPIA" yes, maybe. But in the near future NEW wholesale rates, will remedy that. So it's a business practice Rogers can sustain.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

The problem is only parts of Rogers "service" are better than a TPIA and specifically those related to installs.

Rogers doesn't do same day repairs any more. Hell, it's hard to get an appointment for 3 days from now! Gone are the days of call in the morning and have a tech on your doorstep in a couple hours.

The point I think that people are trying to make is that the service that the TPIA and its equivalent for Rogers retail should be on a par. The service beyond that is the distinguishing factor.

This is why we have such calls for functional separation.
DigitalRain
join:2013-03-16

DigitalRain

Member

said by sbrook:

This is why we have such calls for functional separation.

I've never been able to understand why one would oppose functional separation in favour of the status quo as a matter of good public policy. I personally go further and argue that functional separation is just a means to an end, that end being that the lines themselves are owned and operated by a public-private partnership with the services on those lines provided to the end user by private firms granted equal access to this infrastructure. Whether or not one agrees with this position, how ever, has no bearing on the obvious argument that functional separation is far superior to the status quo.

Functional separation acts under the assumption that sectors of the economy that are natural monopolies (eg. Telecommunications infrastructure) ought to be treated differently than ones which are competitive when left to their own devices (eg. Just about any consumer good as well as most of the service sector).

Underneath the status quo, conversely, lies the assumption that all economic sectors are equal irrespective of the propensity for competition within each one. This allows a single firm or an oligopoly of firms to wield a disproportionate level of influence over the economy and the political community as a whole through their sole ownership and operation of this infrastructure.

We have been able to maintain this status quo through the argument that there are in fact two fixed line network operators from which most consumers can purchase telecommunications services in general and broadband Internet in particular. This is not even true in many cases, as many Canadians do not have access to fixed line broadband at all, or have only one viable option. That there even exists two networks at all is an accident of history coming from the fact that at one point the copper phone networks were primarily capable of carrying small amounts of information in two directions whereas the coaxial cable networks were primarily capable of carrying large amounts of information in only one direction. Obviously, this is no longer the case in most areas, with urban cores and affluent suburbs even having access to a network consisting of fibre optics up to a neighborhood remote or note which interfaces with short cable runs or copper loops. The end game would be to have a single fibre optic network going to everyone's home, with existing cable and copper being used as a transition to this goal. Maintaining multiple networks of this nature is a workable alternative so long as functional separation is in place to ensure that access to essential infrastructure is never trumped by shareholder value.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

actually, maintaining the copper phone network is not such a bad thing. Wireline does have the significant advantage of simplicity and reliability. That said it's an

Fibre is far more complex and so cuts into reliability. Same with wireless. I'm quite certain that eventually someone is going to come to some definite conclusion that all this RF is going to be a health hazard. (I do somewhat believe it ... but it's not stopping me from using a cell phone from time to time or having wifi in my house
droidman4
join:2005-12-12
Ottawa, ON

droidman4 to cepnot4me

Member

to cepnot4me
said by cepnot4me:

The reason TPIA doesn't have tools to view a node or access to the node (one of them at least) is because of the access they'd have to Rogers Customers modems. We can power cycle Rogers modems via the tools, see every modem on the street and EMTA. This would also give TPIA a mailing list to under sell Rogers own native customers. Now, Rogers can see the TPIA customers as well, but if they target them like that and get caught it's an antitrust lawsuit.

I'm going to take exception to this comment, it would require some work but I'm sure its very doable to build a portal for TPIA that allows them only visibility to their customers and filters out the rest. You'd have to figure out a way for the TPIA to pay a reasonable amount to build it.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

said by droidman4:

I'm going to take exception to this comment, it would require some work but I'm sure its very doable to build a portal for TPIA that allows them only visibility to their customers and filters out the rest. You'd have to figure out a way for the TPIA to pay a reasonable amount to build it.

 
Would it not simply require setting things up to only allow each TPIA's techs access to the specified VLANs, IP pools, and related databases of each respective TPIA ?
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

yyzlhr

Member

Not sure how that particular system works.

However, the system that handles billing and provisioning and limited troubleshooting and diagnostic tools is the same system that is used for both TPIA and Rogers customers. TPIA customers are assigned account numbers that are in the same format as Rogers customers.

Also the only way to access accounts in this system requires you to open the account in the CRM system first. The CRM system would have access to literally every single Rogers and TPIA customer, past or present. There would really be no easy way to change this.