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JohnGalt

@24.147.0.x

MPPPoE on Fairpoint DSL

I've asked Fairpoint and they say it's possible but they won't give you support for it, to setup MPPPoE for multilink. Given the HORRIBLE 3 Mbps (I'm on 105 meg Comcast at the moment and facing a massive downgrade in our move) I'm hoping to grab 4 lines from Fairpoint and use MPPPoE and bond the lines to get ~12 mb/sec.

Anyone else had experience doing it?


tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
·Hollis Hosting
·G4 Communications
Bonding multiple lines requires support at both the customer and ISP end.

What you can do if you get multiple DSL lines is use a load balancing router. Each session will be speed limited to the specific line it is connected to but router will round robin sessions to take advantage of multiple links. Note: this only works for outgoing since each DSL connection will have its own IP address.

May want to check out if your new location is services by a CLEC. If so they may be more inclined to work with you on a Multilink configuration.

/tom


JohnGalt

@24.147.0.x
My understanding is that MPPPoE is supported by default by Fairpoint right now and I just have to implement it on my end. Is this not true?

modem_reset

join:2010-05-27
Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
·ObiVoice
reply to JohnGalt
I'm not saying it's possible...but I have done it at home.

It worked 'ok'...lot's of disconnects.

PPoE was not done by the supplied modem. The DSL modem is a bridge...

On my Firewall I have the ability to have MULTIPLE wan's at one time.

Put in my credentials x2...concurrent log ins were successful..used the software to load balance my end...by load balance,
webtraffic 80/443 went out line 1
streaming line 2
torrents line 1
etc


JohnGalt

@24.147.0.x
Ya, load balancing is one thing, I'm looking to get full aggregation going with mpppoe which should provide about 80-90% of full bandwidth of the total of the connections.

mfisch

join:2014-08-26
reply to JohnGalt
I've done MPPP a long time ago in a land far far away where MPPP T1 was what you did instead of a T3.

The configuration is simple enough. What exactly did Fairpoint tell you regarding possibility? Do their DSLAMs auto negotiate MPPP when you login from multiple lines?

I just ordered a second fairpoint DSL line today (install next week) through their 2nd connection offer (see their offers page, second connection only $8/mo).

Their tech support says its a totally separate router etc, but I wonder if there's something I don't know about how it can be configured.

I use a Cisco 1941 router and have two EHWIC-VA-DSL-A cards (I was planning to tunnel them out to Amazon and aggregate at the VPN head) -- it would be really awesome if I could multilink them instead.

Let me know what you find out and I'll do the same!
Matt

mfisch

join:2014-08-26
reply to modem_reset
Are you sure you were using MPPP? What you're describing sounds like DSL pass thru bridge + multiple PPPoE connections.

MPPP is a multi-link protocol that provides for link aggregation, link failover, and specifically ensures packets are sequenced correctly using a buffer on each end (adds latency but prevents out of order packets which hurt TCP throughput).


JohnGalt

@24.147.0.x
reply to mfisch
They tell me it will just work.

I can't find that second fairpoint DSL line offer. Could you shoot a link? I'll call them ASAP if that's the case.

What you'll want to do is get 2 DSL modems (not routers) and put them in bridge mode (Fairpoint stupidly sells modems with NAT instead of selling a router with Routing and wifi and a modem that's just a dumb modem...)

Once you've done that, you can use Windows to test MPPPoE by setting multiple network cards for the PPPoE dial-up connection and it should work.

Getting a router to do it is much harder. I'm just going to use our house's Windows Server to do it. (although I'm bugging ASUS to see if they'll add MPPPoE bonding to their routers that support Dual WAN (and get them to support 4 DSL connections too!)


hawk82

join:2001-04-26
centralmaine
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to JohnGalt
»Rumor: FP to offer bonded ADSL2+ service soon

A possible option. I haven't seen bonded 2+ offered yet. Might still be in beta testing.

EoC (also known as broadband elite) does 5x5, 10x10, etc bonding of multiple copper loops. I spoke with a FP sales rep a couple of months ago and they are offering it for $79.99 for 5x5, $149.99 for 10x10.


johnGatl

@24.147.0.x
Could you elaborate on what you mean by EoC and 5x5?

The best number I could get out of the business department was $150 / month for 5 meg on ether loop. (only 2 meg faster, but symmetrical than a single DSL that they offer for $37 / month)

Gotta get something that doesn't suck.


hawk82

join:2001-04-26
centralmaine
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
said by johnGatl :

Could you elaborate on what you mean by EoC and 5x5?

The best number I could get out of the business department was $150 / month for 5 meg on ether loop. (only 2 meg faster, but symmetrical than a single DSL that they offer for $37 / month)

Gotta get something that doesn't suck.

EoC=ethernet over copper, the generic name for what FP sells as Broadband Elite
5x5= 5Mbit symmetric connection (upload and download), but can go as high as 30Mbit from what I've been told.

It is delivered to you over copper loops based on SHDSL in most cases. 6-pair drop wire from the NID to a 25-pair Krone block, then a 25-pair amphenol connectorized 25-pair cable to an Adtran 800 series CPE, which then provides you a straight copper ethernet connection. The Adtrans have SFPs but I've never seen FP use them. You'll get 3 static IP addresses as well with the service. Loop distance is a factor so the further you are away from the CO or a RT, the less likely you'd qualify for the service.

mfisch

join:2014-08-26
I pursued EOC (there's a few technologies to do this, I forget which fairpoint was using) with Fairpoint almost two years ago. The pricing was rather ridiculous for their "5/5 Carrier Ethernet". Having a lot of experience negotiating telco for enterprise networks and datacenters I pushed back for a heavy discount.

The answer I got was rather surprising. Engineering told me there are only 18 pairs on my road and they're all in use (except for 1-2 spares). The cabling project to get more pairs out to me would cost in excess of 25k -- they couldn't discount me because they needed to subsidize the cable project.

The explanation made sense to me and I gave up.... ps my number was much higher than $150/mo.. maybe I should try again (but I know they haven't recabled the road).

mfisch

join:2014-08-26
reply to JohnGalt
»www.fairpoint.com/cmsimages/FPC1···9340.jpg
»www.fairpoint.com/global/current_offers/

It's possible I'm in an A/B trial and the offer isn't available to you.

My install is next Wednesday.

I use a Cisco router with EHWIC cards that have DSL chipsets in them directly (so no modems in bridge mode required).

The C1941 and EHWIC cards aren't cheap (I got a pair for around $500 and the router was a kick down), but an old cisco router with older WIC or HWIC DSL cards can be had much more economically (and will be much more reliable than the cheapo fairpoint dsl modems and a windows/linux server). I guess this is about priorities however. Either configuration should work fine.

JohnGalt

join:2014-08-28
United State
Here's hoping that you can get mPPPoE going and then I can get it going here cause 3 meg SUCKS.

mfisch

join:2014-08-26

1 edit
The offer didn't say anything about MLPPP ... in fact it had zero technical details at all. It sorta seems like it might just be a regular second DSL line. Technical support also seemed to know very little about it ... I think its a new experimental offer they are pushing into difficult to reach markets like mine (probably to trying to stem the bleeding wireless providers are putting on them).

I'll certainly try to attempt turning MLPPP up. In theory the fairpoint people could load-balance without MPPP (which would actually be preferable since latency wouldn't take such a hit) -- but that type of routing configuration would definitely take network engineering intervention.

I'll see what type of magic I can manage, in my kit-bag is always tunneling upstream to Amazon and doing traffic aggregation there. There are advantages to that -- Amazon has better peering to both Fairpoint and the rest of the internet than Fairpoint does directly (e.g., to Netflix). On the other hand that type of network wizardry can result in some out-of-order packet issues that then need to be resolved by using a buffer and increasing latency -- or taking the hit to TCP throughput that happens when out-of-order packets are received by the network stack (that specific problem is much less of a problem with aggregation at the ISP POP).

ps, if you look into the technical specifics of doing MLPPP with DSL .. remember MLPPP and PPPoE are actually separate technologies that may be used in conjunction (as far as I know there's no protocol called MPPPoE).

JohnGalt

join:2014-08-28
United State
reply to JohnGalt
I thought that everyone had just shortened to MPPPoE but ok, MLPPPoE. Anyone had a chance to try it and get it going on fairpoint?

Would love to know because I'm about to order additional DSL connections and really want to get this going.

Thanks!

mfisch

join:2014-08-26
Don't know who everyone is. I go by the acronyms used by network engineers writing documentation and industry standards specifications.

I'll be trying tomorrow

mfisch

join:2014-08-26
Install went well and I have the new DSL configured and "dialed up" using the second EHWIC-VA-DSL-A in my C1941 but I was unable to aggregate the bandwidth on the two WAN interfaces utilizing MLPPP.

I'll update this thread if I manage to make any progress without resorting to extraordinary methods.

I'm somewhat hampered by the fact I don't know if the access router supports MLPPP, and that if it does whether it is turned on and what encapsulation and protocols should be utilized.

JohnGalt

join:2014-08-28
United State
reply to JohnGalt
FYI, I did a test here by putting the router in MLPPPoE single link mode and it failed to connect.

It looks like despite Fairpoint's claims to the contrary, MLPPPoE is not enabled. :


tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
·Hollis Hosting
·G4 Communications
said by JohnGalt:

It looks like despite Fairpoint's claims to the contrary, MLPPPoE is not enabled. :

That is too bad, but not really a surprise.

If they supported bonding one would assume they would actively market it as a way to sell more DSL connections.

/tom

mfisch

join:2014-08-26
reply to JohnGalt
I'd be interested to know where they suggest they do support multi linking. Tech support and sales both told me they didn't.

I was able to bond these myself. I used the following configuration:

- EC2 instance running Ubuntu 14.04 with an EIP acting as VPN and NAT (NAPT mangle) gateway.

- Cisco router with a crypto-map (Tunnel mode IPSec) associated with each outbound interface between pairs of loopback interfaces on the router and ubuntu (strongswan for ipsec) box.

- IPIP Tunnels (ip-inside-ip) between the paired loopback addresses between each of the DSL interfaces and the Ubuntu server.

- Cisco router and Quagga on Ubuntu each running BGP, with Ubuntu originating a default route.

- The Cisco used a VRF to isolate the default route from the IPSec stack.

My MTU is down to 1472, but I have aggregate speeds of two bonded DSL connections (minus the tunneling and encryption overhead).

This would have been overly complex for most situations but I've got some network engineering background, I was proofing to see what a Linux server could do acting as a VPN gateway in AWS (since you can't install a hardware router/firewall there), and I already have an AWS presence to tie into (and now I won't need the VPN client to reach some less restricted areas of that network).


MLPPP

@173.206.102.x
reply to JohnGalt
Since both connections have to terminate on the same router, typically a provider will designate specific routers (with MLPPP enabled) and then create a new realm, which routes these connections to the same equipment every time (to bond the links).

Then comes to question of how you're going to bond those links. Mikotik is a good option if you're looking to bond a lot of lines.. but it can also be done with a linksys WRT54GL/WRTSL54GL (probably 3 lines max) and Tomato/MLPPP firmware, or other forks.

JohnGalt

join:2014-08-28
United State
Ya, got everything except Fairpoint actually turning it on, even though they do this routinely with T1s etc. Crappy DSL and they won't give you a way to overcome their crap.


MLPPP

@173.206.102.x
reply to MLPPP
*Mikrotik