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maartena
Elmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA

maartena

Premium Member

Smart plan

Several years ago, a time warner cable tech told me that an HD channel takes the "equivalent of around 12 to 16 Mbps" on their network. He said "equivalent" because in the end, that's not really how the channels are transported to the end user, but that is how they are compressed in MPEG2.

DirecTV's HD (which is generally considered the best in the market) allocates 7 to 8 Mbps per HD channel in MPEG4 on their satellite transponders, depending on quality (1080i/720p etc).

U-Verse is around 5.5 Mbps per HD channel in MPEG4 and is considered one of the least quality in the market.

So, if cable can do around 7 Mbps per HD channel, I think they are golden. The biggest challenge will be to convert all the old boxes.

norm
join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA

norm

Member

Where are you getting this information? I am genuinely interested as I currently have FiOS but also have available to me Dish, Direct, and Comcast. I get a lot of artifacts on my FiOS picture with fast moving scenes, scenes with a lot of color regardless of motion, and scenes with very little color like credits and bumper cards.
existenz
join:2014-02-12

4 recommendations

existenz to maartena

Member

to maartena
FWIW, Google Fiber is doing MPEG4 at 15M+. Looks better than OTA TV.

TechyDad
Premium Member
join:2001-07-13
USA

1 recommendation

TechyDad to maartena

Premium Member

to maartena
This, of course, leads me to wonder what would happen if Comcast held their own channels to their data caps. At 300GB per month, and 7Mbps per HD channel, you would be able to watch just over 3 hours of TV a day before you'd hit your cap.

Of course, if more than one TV is running at the same time, they count separately. So if you spent an hour and a half watching a movie in one room while the kids watched their programs in another room, that would be 3 hours.

If Comcast did this (which they would never, EVER do), how many people would cancel their cable service? Yet, this is exactly what they are trying to do with Netflix and other Internet video providers.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25 to maartena

Member

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DirectTv's stream is dynamic and the change it all the time. I am guessing many if not all of them do this as well.

There is a website out there somewhere that is dedicated to showing the bandwidth they are using at any given time. It has been 2 years since I have seen it so I dont recall what it is.

journeysquid
join:2014-08-01

journeysquid to existenz

Member

to existenz
said by existenz:

FWIW, Google Fiber is doing MPEG4 at 15M+. Looks better than OTA TV.

That seems unlikely, unless they're getting a source of higher quality than a comparable OTA channel.

scaredpoet
join:2001-03-26
Monmouth Junction, NJ

scaredpoet to TechyDad

Member

to TechyDad
This, of course, leads me to wonder what would happen if Comcast held their own channels to their data caps. At 300GB per month, and 7Mbps per HD channel, you would be able to watch just over 3 hours of TV a day before you'd hit your cap.

Of course, if more than one TV is running at the same time, they count separately. So if you spent an hour and a half watching a movie in one room while the kids watched their programs in another room, that would be 3 hours.

If Comcast did this (which they would never, EVER do), how many people would cancel their cable service? Yet, this is exactly what they are trying to do with Netflix and other Internet video providers.
While I agree with your point, unfortunately Comcast has a very easy way to weasel out of this argument. The difference between Comcast and Netflix is, Comcast is not using unicast IP transport for its live broadcast channels. It's effectively a multicast stream, and the same bandwidth is going down the pipe regardless or whether 1 TV or 1,000 TVs are viewing the channel in your neighborhood. This is different from Netflix, where there is no coordination, and everything is on demand, and unicast. So there, each stream does consume its own bandwidth.

Of course, therein lies the tools to continue the argument. Comcast DOES treat its on-demand video service differently from Netflix, even though THAT is a more appropriate comparison. And with, Netflix now paying Comcast to interconnect, is it really fair to keep counting their bandwidth use as part of any cap, seeing that Comcast is now getting paid on both ends for it?
existenz
join:2014-02-12

1 edit

1 recommendation

existenz to journeysquid

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to journeysquid
It's been verified by Google Support and I can also see MPEG4 packets with a sniffer. Others have validated MPEG4/15Mbps+ streams as well. Basically they are not re-compressing any tighter than what is provided by feeds. The 2nd gen GF TV box they are beta testing supposedly supports HDMI 1.4, apparently prepping for 4KTV.

»productforums.google.com ··· zs2dYQVc

edit: As far as appearance, it may be because the video decoder in the GF TV box is higher quality than my TV OTA decoders. Is also possible they are also getting some feeds higher quality than local OTA stations. Could be psychosomatic but most say GF TV is better than OTA, many say the image 'pops'.

dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus
join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI

dnoyeB

Member

Its possible of the OTA channel is overcompressed. IIRC e.g. channel 38 is one frequency with one signal that can be divided up into as many channels as the station wishes. However, the more its divided the less bandwidth is left for each channel. (38-1, 38-2, 38-3, etc.)

quetwo
That VoIP Guy
Premium Member
join:2004-09-04
East Lansing, MI

quetwo to maartena

Premium Member

to maartena
MPEG2, without compression is 19 MBps. Comcast usually compresses their channels to about 12-16 MBps. This allows 3 - 4 HD channels per QAM EIA on the network (a QAM channels is simply an MPEG data stream).

The biggest issue is a majority of the CATV industry is still MPEG2. STBs sold up to a few years ago were MPEG2 only. There is still a LOT of equipment out there that would become incompatible.

GoogleSearch
@204.28.140.x

GoogleSearch to journeysquid

Anon

to journeysquid
Seems he's spot on with what he said.. per this google search result

»productforums.google.com ··· mA5y3aEJ

Orlando 57
@69.241.126.x

1 recommendation

Orlando 57 to TechyDad

Anon

to TechyDad
Nice try on the bandwidth caps. the only thing wrong with your idea is the HD channel is shared by everyone in the node. It isn't an individual feed just to you. So if you are watching CBS and your neighbor is watching CBS you are watching the same channel and you share that bandwidth.

With Netflix you are the only one watching that stream. If you watch house of cards and your neighbor watches house of cards you both have seperate streams.
elefante72
join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

elefante72 to norm

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I would open a ticket and have your signal tested. I see the occasional blue crush (police gumballs), but nothing like you are describing. The picture is adequate and much better than the alternative here (TWC). I have OTA in my office and it is far superior...

On my HDHR HBO (mpeg4) rules around 11Mbps and mpeg2 channels 20+. I think they are going for a 2:1 ratio.

norm
join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA

norm

Member

Click for full size
said by elefante72:

I would open a ticket and have your signal tested. I see the occasional blue crush (police gumballs), but nothing like you are describing. The picture is adequate and much better than the alternative here (TWC). I have OTA in my office and it is far superior...

On my HDHR HBO (mpeg4) rules around 11Mbps and mpeg2 channels 20+. I think they are going for a 2:1 ratio.

I've had techs come out a few times and it's just... I don't know. They always scratch their heads and don't know what's up. The DVR captures it and can be repeated via recording on other TVs 100% the same. All wiring has been replaced as has my ONT. It happens on multiple boxes. The last solution they tried was to put an anti-static plastic bag over the the internals of the ONT. Tech said he thought it was stupid and wouldn't work but that's what he was told to do. It is stupid and hasn't worked.

Don't mind the fact that I have an outdoor ONT in my basement.
98778011 (banned)
join:2014-08-24
Charlotte, NC

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it says "most" does not state all.

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

1 recommendation

mackey to maartena

Premium Member

to maartena
said by maartena:

Several years ago, a time warner cable tech told me that an HD channel takes the "equivalent of around 12 to 16 Mbps" on their network. He said "equivalent" because in the end, that's not really how the channels are transported to the end user, but that is how they are compressed in MPEG2.

Actually, that is exactly how they are transported to the end user. Using QAM256, each 6 MHz wide RF channel is just a 38 mbps data channel with one or more MPEG data streams streamed over it. Using a HDHomeRun Prime you can actually see how this all comes together:

$ hdhomerun_config 192.168.9.199 set /tuner1/vchannel 100
$ hdhomerun_config 192.168.9.199 get /tuner1/status
ch=qam:447000000 lock=qam256 ss=100 snq=100 seq=100 bps=38813728 pps=276
 
Channel is 38 mbps, QAM256, located at 447MHz

$ hdhomerun_config 192.168.9.199 get /tuner1/streaminfo
118: 100 CNN
119: 101 CNN Headline Ne (encrypted)
124: 105 CNN Internation (encrypted)
213: 230 Turner Classic (encrypted)
235: 258 Boomerang (encrypted)
320: 1540 CNN Espanol (encrypted)
tsid=0x0001
 
6 (SD) virtual channels are encoded on this channel

$ hdhomerun_config 192.168.9.199 get /tuner1/debug
tun: ch=qam:447000000 lock=qam256:447000000 ss=100 snq=100 seq=100 dbg=-379/-102
dev: bps=38812224 resync=0 overflow=0
cc:  bps=38812224 resync=0 overflow=0
ts:  bps=38813728 ut=53 te=0 miss=0 crc=0
flt: bps=2543264
net: pps=248 err=0 stop=0
 
After subchannel filtering ("flt") the tuned stream is (VBR) ~2.5 mbps. My video player is reporting it as MPEG-2, 704x480, 29.97 fps, 4:2:0.

/M

journeysquid
join:2014-08-01

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Member

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I wasn't clear, I was referring specifically to the picture quality. I have no doubt they're using MPEG-4.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA to dnoyeB

Premium Member

to dnoyeB
All the big providers have higher bitrate fiber feeds, including GF.
BiggA

BiggA to TechyDad

Premium Member

to TechyDad
That's nonsense. The QAM is broadcast, not unicast like DOCSIS. I don't defend caps, they are horrible, but what you are saying is completely technologically illogical.
BiggA

BiggA to quetwo

Premium Member

to quetwo
Only a few channels get that kind of bandwidth! Most are tri-muxed to around 12mbps...

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

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But they refuse to let customers use their own equipment like TiVo, which is unforgivable.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

GF isn't cable, it's IPTV. TiVo would need to support GF. And GF has really good equipment on it's own, and crazy high bitrates as well. I'd take GF TV if it was available in my area, as long as they had the channels I want.

Jon Geb
Long time member
join:2001-01-09
Howell, MI

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Google fiber has almost unlimited bandwidth, probably 10 times or more than Comcast.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

By Unlimited, you mean WDM-PON with 1.25gbps per sub, limited to 1gbps (about 910mbps realistically) by the gigabit Ethernet on the fiber jack, and for TV limited to about 80mbps realistically by MoCA.

Comcast has over 5gbps per node on 860mhz systems, but it has to handle over 100 customers with internet, TV, phone, security, VOD, etc, and the majority of it is used by linear broadcasts of channels.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

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Meh, not as good as TiVo, simply put. I'd take GF too, if it supported TiVo and let me use my own router directly.
existenz
join:2014-02-12

existenz

Member

What Tivo features would you miss? GF TV box is not good for slinging video but it does work with Slingbox. They are working on a 2nd Gen TV box with more features and supposedly prepping for 4K TV support. You can also use your own router/switch as long as it supports 802.1q VLAN 2 and 802.1p priority level 2. Or you can attach your own to Google's router in AP mode and supposedly bridge mode coming.

According to leaks, the 2nd Gen TV box supports MoCA 2.0, which can potentially do near a Gbit.

Only thing I'm annoyed by is not being able to use GFiber App outside home network, but that is planned.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA to Mike Wolf

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to Mike Wolf
I'd take GF, even without TiVo, just because they don't re-compress at all. 15mbps ESPN would be amazing!

Since I'm in the Northeast, I'll keep my dream realistic and focus on FIOS with TiVo.
captinkirk
join:2012-12-12
Tucson, AZ

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This is very possible that they would be getting an ASI feed from the stations. An ASI signal can go up to 270 Mbps which is on average 13 times more bandwidth than a traditional OTA signal.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

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Um between the high cost of the Slingbox and the high cost of the apps to USE the dang thing, it's kinda stupid. TiVo is just better all around.
Mike Wolf

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I'd much rather browbeat a provider I'm with until they improve their services.