dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
53
share rss forum feed


Torts

@73.160.110.x

2 recommendations

Netflix should quit whining and sue if they felt wronged

Netflix never proved that ISPs slowed down their traffic. All they could prove was that interconnections between transit providers and ISPs used by Netflix were clogged and that traffic slowed.

Who clogged them? ISPs blamed transit providers( who were demanding settlement free peering) who refused to negotiate prices for new interconnection agreements. Transit providers blamed ISPs saying ISPs refusal to maintain settlement free peering and do free upgrades at peering points was some type of violation of network neutrality( which is a ridiculous broadening of what net neutrality is).

2nd, Netflix provided proof that complaints increased, but showed no proof how many customers quit over this.

This is just more finger pointing among Netflix, transit providers, and ISPs. If Netflix really believes that ISP actions are causing their loss of customers, there are courts based in Delaware where inter-corporate lawsuits resolve such disagreements.


jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA
kudos:1
said by Torts :

Who clogged them?

Comcast customers requesting data.


Topmounter
Sent By Grocery Clerks

join:2001-02-20
Evergreen, CO
HDporn aka "data"

rebus9

join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Bright House

2 recommendations

reply to jmn1207
said by jmn1207:

said by Torts :

Who clogged them?

Comcast customers requesting data.

+1

Comcast knew their peering with Cogent was congested, inadequate.

And they knew if they did nothing to fix it, Netflix would bleed customers until they (Netflix) cut a deal for direct interconnection with Comcast.

Comcast was clearly and absolutely the abuser.

There are 3 losers in this game:

1.) Netflix, who was unable to reach its paying customers.
2.) Netflix customers, who couldn't stream content because of Comcast's bully tactics.
3.) Cogent, who lost billable traffic when Netflix cut private deals.
Expand your moderator at work

98778011

join:2014-08-24
Charlotte, NC
reply to rebus9

Re: Netflix should quit whining and sue if they felt wronged

Maybe next time Netflix won't go to the bottom of transit/CDN carriers for services. Cogent has had problems in the past with their peering where it was one sided. Everyone loved the ISPs were standing up to Cogent and now since Netflix is involved it's all of a sudden different, and Cogent is the king no. BS. Tell Cogent to upgrade their links and pass equal data or pay for it. If they cut a deal with Netflix that was less than what they would pay Comcast or even Verizon to upgrade the links, well that's the cost of doing business and Cogent can eat the difference and pay for what is not equal.

98778011

join:2014-08-24
Charlotte, NC
reply to rebus9
And Cogent is still getting paid how do you think they're reaching CableOne?? or Charter??? And every other ISP even Bell Canada??? Still Cogent is in play. And that's their problem.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

4 recommendations

reply to Torts
said by Torts :

Who clogged them? ISPs blamed transit providers( who were demanding settlement free peering) who refused to negotiate prices for new interconnection agreements. Transit providers blamed ISPs saying ISPs refusal to maintain settlement free peering and do free upgrades at peering points was some type of violation of network neutrality( which is a ridiculous broadening of what net neutrality is).

I wish more people understood this so Netflix and L3/Cogent/Netflix would not be so successful in generating headlines by hijacking network neutrality for something completely different: peering disputes.

There are only two things Netflix can do avoid becoming a victim of peering disputes between transit providers/CDNs and ISPs:
1- balance traffic across more transit/CDNs than just L3/Cogent so their traffic has somewhere else to go
2- peer directly with ISPs

Netflix chooses option #2 likely because the major ISPs' other peers and transit providers charge more for transit than L3/Cogent or even the ISPs themselves do.


Flyonthewall

@206.248.154.x
What exactly then is Netflix paying for when they sign up for internet access so they can send data to customers?

Customer pays their ISP to reach netflix.

I assume Netflix is paying someone for access as well to the customer.

So they both pay to get to the 'Net and access each other already.

Where is this extra access they should be paying for.

I think it comes down to how many times does someone have to pay to send information on the 'Net? that 'Net part is supposed to be open territory. I think ISPs are acting like they are running a range war.


v6movement

@206.51.28.x

2 recommendations

reply to 98778011
said by 98778011:

Maybe next time Netflix won't go to the bottom of transit/CDN carriers for services.

Comcast, AT&T, Verizon and TWC having peering congestion issues with a number of networks. Hrmmm. Interesting how that works.

said by 98778011:

Tell Cogent to upgrade their links

Cogent has upgraded their links, but they can't do anything about the other side when they're acting like immature children.


jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA
kudos:1
reply to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:

There are only two things Netflix can do avoid becoming a victim of peering disputes between transit providers/CDNs and ISPs:
1- balance traffic across more transit/CDNs than just L3/Cogent so their traffic has somewhere else to go
2- peer directly with ISPs

This is only possible because in the US the major ISPs have a dominant market share where they operate in with little to no legitimate competition for frustrated customers to turn to when service quality is miserable. And let the record state that service quality is deplorable. Customer service ranks among the lowest for any service industry, and the largest corporations in this terrible industry have the lowest ranking customer service. That speaks volumes. Something needs to be done to correct this problem.

Because of the captive customer base these bullying conglomerates enjoy, I doubt even your option 1 is feasible for Netflix, as no matter what they choose, if it does not include payment to the ISP with these captive customers, the data being requested can still become intentionally congested.

The problem is the captive customer base. How do we solve this problem?

rebus9

join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Bright House
reply to 98778011
said by 98778011:

Everyone loved the ISPs were standing up to Cogent

What planet are YOU from? Everyone "loved" when ISPs made a chunk of the internet unreachable (by de-peering Cogent) such that ISP customers couldn't access the content they wanted?

Really? Wow.

said by 98778011:

and now since Netflix is involved it's all of a sudden different

Dead wrong. This is more of the SAME. ISPs have been using the same "if you want to reach OUR customers, then PAY us" leverage against competing transit providers for years. It's just gotten worse, and thus more visible, with Netflix.

You smell like a telco shill.

rebus9

join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Bright House

1 edit
reply to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:

There are only two things Netflix can do avoid becoming a victim of peering disputes between transit providers/CDNs and ISPs:
1- balance traffic across more transit/CDNs than just L3/Cogent so their traffic has somewhere else to go
2- peer directly with ISPs

Netflix chooses option #2 likely because the major ISPs' other peers and transit providers charge more for transit than L3/Cogent or even the ISPs themselves do.

No, they do it to avoid the same situation with other providers.

If Netflix sends more traffic out Level3, then ISP-Level3 peering runs hot and Netflix customers suffer.

If Netflix does it with XO, then ISP-XO peering runs hot and Netflix customers suffer.

If Netflix does it with AboveNet, then ISP-AboveNet peering runs hot and Netflix customers suffer.

Comcast has already done it to Level3 and TATA. Verizon and AT&T are already doing it to Cogent. Other carriers are also involved.

TruthTeller

join:2014-04-23
Philadelphia, PA
reply to 98778011
Incorrect. NetFlix is peered with Bell Canada. Don't know about Charter but from CableOne it's using Level3.

TruthTeller

join:2014-04-23
Philadelphia, PA

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to 98778011
K,

Not correct. NetFlix used Cogent, Level3, Telia, NTT, and even your own transit provider, Tata to reach your network (Comcast).

Or are you claiming that they lied in their FCC brief? You know better.


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Don't confuse these guys with the facts. They need to blindly shill for Big ISP's anti-consumer and anti-Internet moves, all in the name of big shareholder returns. Your facts inconvenience them as they list off their political talking points.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

chrisgo1

join:2005-03-16
Orlando, FL
reply to Torts
+ 1

This is business thing as a consumer I don't care what business screws what business. There are no innocent parties here. Reminds me of the cable company and network TV finger pointing when both want to collect as many consumer dollars as they can at the expense of the other.

Cable companies will not be dumb pipes willingly ... if they ever did then those pipes would cost as much as what bundled prices go for.