sk1939 Premium Member join:2010-10-23 Frederick, MD ARRIS SB8200 Ubiquiti UDM-Pro Juniper SRX320
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sk1939
Premium Member
2014-Aug-30 5:26 pm
[Flooring] Serious Leak ProblemSo apparently this has been a long running problem that hasn't been noticed. When the bathroom was redone 15 or so years ago, the contractors apparently put tile on top of the original hardwood floor. Fast forward to today, and literally 10 minutes ago I went to the bathroom to find the tile floor go "squish". Upon removal of the tile I found black and very spongey hardwood flooring. Upon checking the basement, it does NOT appear that the subfloor is rotten, yet. Flushing the toilet does NOT yield running/flowing water, but it is clear that there is some. I'm trying to let it air dry for the moment but I have a series of questions: How bad is it? Is air drying best, or do I have to go get a heat gun? Is it salvageable or does it have to be replaced? How much would a replacement section of real hardwood cost for a 3ft x 3 ft area? |
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nonymous (banned) join:2003-09-08 Glendale, AZ |
nonymous (banned)
Member
2014-Aug-30 5:40 pm
Most cost would be labor or your time do it your self. The material cost unless you end up say finding damage to beams will not be significant as far as the floor. But tile may be an issue.
Also, how easily the tile is removed with out breaking and maybe endup needing a whole floor if tile damage and can not match and not wanting mismatch tile. |
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sk1939 Premium Member join:2010-10-23 Frederick, MD ARRIS SB8200 Ubiquiti UDM-Pro Juniper SRX320
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sk1939
Premium Member
2014-Aug-30 5:49 pm
said by nonymous:Most cost would be labor or your time do it your self. The material cost unless you end up say finding damage to beams will not be significant as far as the floor. But tile may be an issue.
Also, how easily the tile is removed with out breaking and maybe endup needing a whole floor if tile damage and can not match and not wanting mismatch tile. Does that mean it needs to be replaced? I have no idea where my circular saw is, but the floor is bordered by a wall on two sides, and a tub on the third. The hardwood itself is old-growth T&G which I loathe replacing both due to it's quality and the fact that it's a PITA. The tile itself is no longer sticking to the wood since it was simply held down with grout/each other. Now that I've pulled two up, the rest are also very easy to remove around the rotted section. |
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deltat2000Timor Omnis Abesto Premium Member join:2000-04-13 127.0.0.1
1 recommendation |
to sk1939
The wax ring for the commode has failed, and when you flush the toilet it leaks across the wax ring and saturates the hardwood flooring. Causing the tile to lift. |
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John Galt6Forward, March Premium Member join:2004-09-30 Happy Camp |
to sk1939
Spongy = not good. |
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robbin Mod join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX |
to sk1939
said by sk1939: The hardwood itself is old-growth T&G Are you sure? I don't see any signs of boards or joints. It looks to me like plywood from looking at the grain pattern. |
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sk1939 Premium Member join:2010-10-23 Frederick, MD ARRIS SB8200 Ubiquiti UDM-Pro Juniper SRX320
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sk1939
Premium Member
2014-Aug-30 6:13 pm
Where it meets the wall. | T&G floor |
said by robbin:said by sk1939: The hardwood itself is old-growth T&G Are you sure? I don't see any signs of boards or joints. It looks to me like plywood from looking at the grain pattern. No, it's possible that's it's plywood. |
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sk1939 |
to deltat2000
said by deltat2000:The wax ring for the commode has failed, and when you flush the toilet it leaks across the wax ring and saturates the hardwood flooring. Causing the tile to lift. The wax ring was replaced a year or two ago, it's not that old. |
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sk1939 |
to deltat2000
Double post. |
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BubbaGIT-R-DONE MVM join:2002-08-19 St. Andrews
1 recommendation |
to sk1939
the t&g you speak of appears to be t&g oak flooring in the last pic posted.
A wax ring installed improperly regardless if it was yesterday will leak. Since the tile appears to be coming up easily, can you not remove tile from around toilet, flush toilet and know if that is where leak is. |
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sk1939 Premium Member join:2010-10-23 Frederick, MD ARRIS SB8200 Ubiquiti UDM-Pro Juniper SRX320
1 edit |
sk1939
Premium Member
2014-Aug-30 7:02 pm
said by Bubba:the t&g you speak of appears to be t&g oak flooring in the last pic posted.
A wax ring installed improperly regardless if it was yesterday will leak. Since the tile appears to be coming up easily, can you not remove tile from around toilet, flush toilet and know if that is where leak is. I removed all the tile around the front and I didn't see any flowing water. However, the drainpipes in the house are considerably older, so I'm wondering if there isn't a leak there. I'll dig farther back and see what I find. Edit: I scraped down the plywood to remove the rotted wood (literally like scraping dirt). I go down about an 1/8in before I hit "solid" but damp wood. |
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jrs8084 Premium Member join:2002-03-02 Statesville, NC |
to sk1939
said by sk1939:said by deltat2000:The wax ring for the commode has failed, and when you flush the toilet it leaks across the wax ring and saturates the hardwood flooring. Causing the tile to lift. The wax ring was replaced a year or two ago, it's not that old. Why? People typically don't replace wax rings as PM. You do it when changing the commode. You obviously have a leak, and you likely will have to tear up more than those few tiles to resolve. |
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nunyaLXI 483 MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO ·Charter
1 recommendation |
to sk1939
First, go wash your hands. that's poop water you are touching. A proper fix will be to get rid of the saturated plywood (I don't think that's hardwood flooring). It's done. If it hasn't started to de-laminate, it will. You need to dry that out - in a dumpster. I hate plumbing. I truly hate it. I'd rather paint than do plumbing. I especially hate wax rings. For something that SHOULD be simple and easy, it seems like they can be a bitch if you don't set them absolutely PERFECT. I found these: » www.homedepot.com/p/Toil ··· 03564758They never miss. Work every time. |
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sk1939 Premium Member join:2010-10-23 Frederick, MD |
to jrs8084
The wax ring had failed before. |
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sk1939 |
to nunya
That I knew, going to have to figure out where to place tiles so I don't track it all over the house.
That's what I was afraid of.
I'll buy one once I get to that step. |
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to sk1939
said by sk1939:The wax ring had failed before. In that case need to figure out why. Just replacing it is unlikely to solve the problem. Wax rings don't just magically fail. For something so simple they work amazing well. Once you open things up make sure the floor flange in not broken, is well anchored to the floor and the correct height. As far as the water damaged floor it needs to be replaced. Drying it out will make it less messy to work with but not restore structural integrity. /tom |
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nonymous (banned) join:2003-09-08 Glendale, AZ |
to sk1939
Since it is that rotted besides structural integrity mentioned by someone already since it is a bathroom and humid I would consider insects liking the damaged.wood later. |
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never seen tile directly on top of wood, where is the cement board? |
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sk1939 Premium Member join:2010-10-23 Frederick, MD |
sk1939
Premium Member
2014-Aug-31 1:23 pm
There isn't any, and there a lot of other things they did that I wasn't a fan of. |
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Hall MVM join:2000-04-28 Germantown, OH
1 recommendation |
to sk1939
The wax ring was installed incorrectly. Yes, I know it's "worked" for a while, but they can last decades, not a few years. As mentioned above, you don't replace wax rings as a maintenance repair. Since it isn't showing through from the basement, it's probably been leaking just a little bit, but for a long time.
You need to pull the toilet off and start removing tile until you find dry wood. Then you need to locate the floor joists so that you can cut out that wet wood to where it sits on the joists (half on, actually, if that makes sense). Replace the wax ring, replace the toilet, and use it for a little while... Watch for leaks. Since the toilet appears to be sitting on the tiles, it may be just a hair to high for a standard wax ring. Get a double-thick one or stack two standard ones on top of one another. I like the type with the built-in rubber flange as well. |
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linicxCaveat Emptor Premium Member join:2002-12-03 United State |
to sk1939
The plywood subfloor is very common in Kitchens and Baths. Old or improperly installed Wax rings cause all kinds of problems from the rocking stool, to leaks, to mold. |
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kherr Premium Member join:2000-09-04 Collinsville, IL |
to sk1939
There's a remote possibility that the bowl is cracked also .... Usually you can see this in new installs, but they can still develop over time ... |
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sk1939 Premium Member join:2010-10-23 Frederick, MD |
to linicx
I'm pretty sure that there is a gap between the wax ring and the flange since the toilet is installed on top of the tile, while the flange is level with the floor (pretty sure). |
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sk1939 |
to kherr
I don't see any cracks of any kind. |
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allofit to sk1939
Anon
2014-Aug-31 6:28 pm
to sk1939
as others have mentioned,
the best fix is to take all the wet parts out, replace, then redo tile.
-- it does look like the tile was laid over the boards, then the toilet placed on top of the tile. that raises the toilet say 1/4", which can prevent the normal wax ring from working.
as mentioned, you can solve that with two regular rings stacked, or the "extra depth" rings, with or without the inner plastic funnel part. $12.
or, you could add another flange spacer to the floor, to bring the flange up to the level of the tile, if that was not done before. $6. plus stainless screws and silicone. that allows a standard ring to work as designed.
--- the woodwork when replaced will be hidden, so doesn't need to be perfect, but the height has to match closely. -- and yes, you can die from other folks s00t, though not usually in family, so keep all clean, and take out all wet boards. wash with bleach. |
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sk1939 Premium Member join:2010-10-23 Frederick, MD ARRIS SB8200 Ubiquiti UDM-Pro Juniper SRX320
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sk1939
Premium Member
2014-Aug-31 7:57 pm
I've used the small tiles as risers, and have placed a piece of 3/4" MDF as a temporary "floor" in the meantime, so we're not walking on it directly. This is not a project I want to tackle myself since it is a giant can of worms. So far all the estimates I've gotten have ranged from expensive to stupidly expensive. One contractor quoted a minimum of $500 for labor, and that was just for the tile, not the toilet or subfloor.
If I was to do it myself, where would I even begin... |
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BubbaGIT-R-DONE MVM join:2002-08-19 St. Andrews 1 edit |
Bubba
MVM
2014-Aug-31 9:14 pm
said by sk1939:If I was to do it myself, where would I even begin... find the leak, find your circular saw, remove toilet, remove tile(hard to match old ?), remove top layer of subfloor given your figures of 3'x3' ?.....there might be 2 layers of subfloor, with the bottom layer laid on the bias. That will put you about half done, still interested |
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linicxCaveat Emptor Premium Member join:2002-12-03 United State |
to sk1939
I'm pretty sure you are probably right. The black spongy stuff is probably moldy. If you're going to mess with it get a mask and rubber gloves. You will have to pull up the toilet and remove tile and remove it until you do no see black on the BACK side of the tile, or on the tile edges. If is moldy it must be removed. Keep yer kids and pets away from it, wife, too. You absolutely cannot leave molded wood in the floor. Mold is a serious health hazard.
I personally would stop now, seal the room up, and call a contractor. I hope you have a second bathroom. |
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Coma Thanks Steve Premium Member join:2001-12-30 NirvanaLand |
Coma
Premium Member
2014-Aug-31 10:20 pm
The second bathroom is what I am hoping, then he could take his time with the project.
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sk1939 Premium Member join:2010-10-23 Frederick, MD ARRIS SB8200 Ubiquiti UDM-Pro Juniper SRX320
1 edit |
sk1939
Premium Member
2014-Sep-1 1:33 am
said by Coma: The second bathroom is what I am hoping, then he could take his time with the project.
2.5 bath house, so fine on that front for the time being. We're avoiding it for the most part, but it is the main bathroom. What is a good way to cap the hole where the toilet flange is? |
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