clevere1 Premium Member join:2002-01-06 Vancouver, WA |
clevere1
Premium Member
2014-Aug-30 9:49 pm
New brakes, spongy pedal?Hey all.. I have a 2001 Subaru Outback 2.4L.
Just did a brake job:
New front pads New front rotors New rear pads new rear rotors
I even did the break in procedure that subaru recommends... the pedal is a bit spongy.. Thoughts? |
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Rusty shims? Sticky sliders? Rust on torque plates that pads sit in (are the pads free)? |
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aguen Premium Member join:2003-07-16 Grants Pass, OR |
to clevere1
Did you "bleed" the lines at each wheel? I seem to recall a "spongy" pedal as being indicative of air being present in the lines. |
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fixrmanFrom a broken heart to a hole in the sky Premium Member join:2003-02-10 Hatboro, PA ·Verizon FiOS
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to clevere1
I'd give it a while to bed those pads in. Might be some high spots on the pads; about 100 miles ought to do it.
However... if you have never flushed the brake system, I'd do it. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, meaning it readily takes up and retains water. After a period of time (usually about 3 years), the brake fluid loses many of its properties, one of which is a high boiling point. If you flush the system out (all new fluid, not just what is in the master cylinder reservoir), you may find your pedal is high and hard again. Also check what Cho Baka mentioned because anything in between the pad backing plate and the caliper piston or frame has to be compressed first before braking action will begin. Even a small space makes a difference. |
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bbear2 Premium Member join:2003-10-06 dot.earth |
to clevere1
Did you bleed the brakes? Twice? At least two soources on the net say that's the reason why. quote: You're driving along and notice your brake pedal seems soft. It almost feels like you're stepping on a sponge. Something is obviously wrong, and you need to find out the cause. Spongy brakes is always caused by air in the brake lines, but there can be several different causes for this.
SOURCE: » www.ehow.com/how_4454942 ··· dal.htmlquote: "Spongy" brakes on any car are an indicator of air in the brake system. The most common way for air to enter the ststem is if the brake lines are disassembled during brake repairs. If your brakes have not been serviced, the most likely explaination is that you have a leak somewhere and you have depleted the brake fluid in the master cylinder reservoir. ADDING MORE FLUID WILL NOT HELP. Once the fluid is depleted, the master cylinder pumps air into your system. Regardless of the source of the air, the system must be "bled" i.e. air sucked out of the lines. If you do not know why you lost brake fluid, find the leak and fix it first.
SOURCE: » www.answers.com/Q/What_c ··· y_brakes |
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clevere1 Premium Member join:2002-01-06 Vancouver, WA |
clevere1
Premium Member
2014-Aug-31 1:44 am
Hi All,
New shims with the new pads.
All the slides worked well.
None of the calipers appeared to stick during repair.
The car stopped ok before the new brakes, due to the warped rotors, I replaced them all...
I haven't bled the brakes... hoping to avoid it if at all possible, that's such a pain in the ass. It has been done before. |
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BK3 join:2001-04-10 Geneva, IL |
BK3
Member
2014-Aug-31 9:57 am
If the brake lines were not opened, and there are no leaks, there would be no need to bleed the brakes. |
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It's still a good idea to bleed them just a bit to make sure there is no air in the wheel cylinders, and the brake fluid is clean.
For one, I always bleed them after a pad or shoe change -- and occasionally I remember getting some air out even though the integrity of the system wasn't compromised. Whether that air was there before, or got in when the wheel cylinder was pushed in -- I have no idea. |
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BK3 join:2001-04-10 Geneva, IL |
BK3
Member
2014-Aug-31 11:20 am
said by aurgathor:It's still a good idea to bleed them just a bit to make sure there is no air in the wheel cylinders, and the brake fluid is clean.
For one, I always bleed them after a pad or shoe change -- and occasionally I remember getting some air out even though the integrity of the system wasn't compromised. Whether that air was there before, or got in when the wheel cylinder was pushed in -- I have no idea. If it makes you happy to do so, then by all means. The two 15 year old cars in my driveway, both still with the factory brake fluid fill and several pad / rotor replacements tell me that is is not necessary. |
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MooJohn join:2005-12-18 Milledgeville, GA
1 recommendation |
Just know that 15 yo brake fluid is now carrying water to rust the system from the inside out. Because of that water it is no longer is as resistant to heat as it was when new. That probably won't make a difference for daily commuting, but if it was a vehicle you towed with or something driven more spiritedly, it could be a real issue.
My 15 yo car also has (afaik) the original fluid, but a full flush is planned when cooler weather arrives this fall. |
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fixrmanFrom a broken heart to a hole in the sky Premium Member join:2003-02-10 Hatboro, PA ·Verizon FiOS
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to BK3
One of these days that attitude might get expensive for you, especially living where you live.
As I mentioned before, brake fluid is hygroscopic. It must keep water in solution rather than separate like oil and water would. This prevents boiling at high braking temperatures which would possibly occur in a caliper after the need for heavy brake use were it not for brake fluid's properties.
There are a couple of ways to check whether or not brake fluid (DOT3) needs to be changed:
1. Color - should be clear or yellowish to light brown. The darker it is the older it is and the more contaminants it has.
2. Finger swipe test: Put a gloved (nitrile, latex) finger into the master cylinder reservoir to the bottom if possible. If what you see is black or brown sludge, a change is way overdue. Dark fluid like tea or coffee also should be changed.
3. Brake fluid test strips. Not necessary, but can be helpful if one is unsure how old the fluid is.
4. Do nothing. Since 90% of vehicles have ABS systems with many valves and hydraulic control units, this is the worst of the choices and short sighted.
Water in brake fluid is problematic for a couple of reasons. Thermal cycling adds to the breakdown of any fluid. Foreign manufacturers have known about the need for and recommended brake fluid flushes for years. Add water and the breakdown further occurs. Most master cylinders are made of aluminum; most cars have steel lines and there can also be copper and brass that is in contact with fluid. Dissimilar metals in the presence of water will cause galvanic corrosion. If you don't believe in it - fine. But it is a similar principle by which your battery produces voltage.
Your vehicles, so you can do whatever you want and probably will. But smart money says that brake fluid and a little time - even if paid to someone via money - is way cheaper than the parts that can be damaged or fail. Just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it never will. Just FYI.
It is a job that someone can do at home if they are so inclined. |
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to BK3
Obviously, you can do anything you want with your cars. However, seeing that how dirty the brake fluid can turn in just a few years, I think it's cheaper to occasionally bleed it than deal with the possible failures; which, among other things can be a seized in bleeding screw or a leaky wheel cylinder.
I'm not saying that there is necessarily a cause and effect relationship, but ever since I started to bleed my brakes lines occasionally (once every 2 - 3 years or so), in the last 15+ years I haven't had a single wheel cylinder failure of any kind. (and I do not replace them, unless there is a problem with them). BTW, I replaced 2 or 3 on my first 2 cars: a '71 Maverick and a '72 LTD.
As for the seizing, when I first tried to bleed the Maverick I broke 2 bleeding screws. In this case, I'm fairly certain that there is a 'cause and effect' relationship between frequency of bleeding and the likely hood of a seized in screw. |
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clevere1 Premium Member join:2002-01-06 Vancouver, WA |
clevere1
Premium Member
2014-Aug-31 7:55 pm
Bleeding the brakes, while a pain in the arse, helped quite a bit. |
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Next time invest in a power bleeder. Best damn thing ever invented for brakes and makes bleeding a snap. » www.motiveproducts.com/ |
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BK3 join:2001-04-10 Geneva, IL |
to aurgathor
said by aurgathor:Obviously, you can do anything you want with your cars. However, seeing that how dirty the brake fluid can turn in just a few years, I think it's cheaper to occasionally bleed it than deal with the possible failures; which, among other things can be a seized in bleeding screw or a leaky wheel cylinder.
I'm not saying that there is necessarily a cause and effect relationship, but ever since I started to bleed my brakes lines occasionally (once every 2 - 3 years or so), in the last 15+ years I haven't had a single wheel cylinder failure of any kind. (and I do not replace them, unless there is a problem with them). BTW, I replaced 2 or 3 on my first 2 cars: a '71 Maverick and a '72 LTD.
As for the seizing, when I first tried to bleed the Maverick I broke 2 bleeding screws. In this case, I'm fairly certain that there is a 'cause and effect' relationship between frequency of bleeding and the likely hood of a seized in screw. The brake fluid in my cars is clean and clear. Never had a brake line fail from the inside (did have one failure from rust on the outside weakening the line enough to cause a failure, but I'm not counting that car as never having had new fluid put in. Obviously after the line was replaced, new fluid had to be added and bleeding done.). I, also have never needed to change a wheel cylinder. Also, I see no reference to this being a maintenance item in my owner's manual. It just says to be sure the level doesn't drop below specified parameters. But if you feel that this is required, then by all means do so. Sure wouldn't hurt anything so long as you know what you are doing. If anyone is reading this thread and is unsure, then go ahead and do it. For you, it may be beneficial. I'm just saying that for me and through my experience, it wouldn't do a bit of good for me. It wouldn't do any harm, but no benefit for me. YMMV. |
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BK3 1 edit |
to MooJohn
said by MooJohn:My 15 yo car also has (afaik) the original fluid, but a full flush is planned when cooler weather arrives this fall. I hope you have fun doing it and that it benefits you immensely. It's just not for me. As far as the brake system goes, I work on the premise of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" That's not saying I don't do preventive maintenance. I do all the things like regular oil changes, filter changes, plugs, wires, and the like. |
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fixrmanFrom a broken heart to a hole in the sky Premium Member join:2003-02-10 Hatboro, PA ·Verizon FiOS
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fixrman to BK3
Premium Member
2014-Aug-31 10:58 pm
to BK3
Why would you bother to replace plugs and wires if they "ain't broke"?
Why not just wait until a misfire starts and fix it then? By your premise, folks should just wait until tires go flat before they fix or replace them, change oil when the engine starts tapping or the oil light comes on, or replace belts when they break. Why do any preventative maintenance at all unless something breaks? How does an oil change benefit you, and why do you bother to change it? A very serious question.
Why not wait until the air filter is so clogged the engine won't run?
Seriously your position makes no sense and obviously stems from ignorance. Illinois has no vehicle safety inspections, so you don't know what might be wrong with you car until it fails. That is one way to approach things, but I have never found a vehicle that failed at a convenient time. I also would not want to drive in a car that did not have a safety check periodically by a licensed technician.
Perhaps my attitude stems from having seen many cars in various states of disrepair, ranging from mild to the outright dangerous. I have seen vehicles from other states in deplorable condition being driven on the road with failures or on the side of the road with any number of problems.
When something does break on your car in the brake system, don't be surprised if it requires a lot of money to fix. I'd rather spend $12.00 and a half hour replacing the fluid than several hundred or thousands on a failure. I am funny like that. |
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fixrman |
to domnatr6
I prefer vacuum bleeders. Never had a master cylinder fail with vacuum; it is quick, easy plus you can remove the bleed boot to suction sludge and old brake fluid out of the master cylinder, refilling with clean fluid to start the process. |
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BK3 join:2001-04-10 Geneva, IL |
to fixrman
You did not comprehend what I wrote. I said as far as the brake system was concerned, I don't fix it if it ain't broke. Just the brakes. I did NOT say this applied to anything else. Plugs and air filters are maintenance items, as outlined in the owner's manual. Brake fluid is not. Unless it is the Anti-lock module that has failed, if your vehicle is so equipped, if you spend hundreds or thousands to fix the brakes, you are getting your parts at the wrong place. You say that I would not know what was wrong until the part fails. Yes, this is true. (As far as non-maintenance items are concerned) BUT if the part hasn't failed, then there is nothing wrong with it, is there?
Licensed Technician? In Illinois? You must be kidding. There is no licensing of auto techs in Illinois, so I couldn't go to one even if I wanted to. Maybe you meant ASE certified? Just as big a joke around here. I know some very good non-ASE techs, and know of some truly poor certified ones. |
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BonezXBasement Dweller Premium Member join:2004-04-13 Canada |
BonezX
Premium Member
2014-Sep-1 12:10 am
even that perception isn't all that good, because if the brakes "break" your usually going to have a bad time.
Regular maintenance isn't just replacing parts, it's also checking the condition and function of the parts themselves, regardless of the part seeming functional at the time it could be rendered completely non-functional during operation(and usually during situations where the part may be exposed to heavier loads then just regular function).
Cooling systems are a good example of parts that can suddenly fail, even if they are currently functioning.
also, make model and manufacturer. |
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fixrmanFrom a broken heart to a hole in the sky Premium Member join:2003-02-10 Hatboro, PA ·Verizon FiOS
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to BK3
ASE certification does not guarantee a proper repair but it does show the ability to apply technical principle to a situation and give a proper answer to a given problem. It is true that there are some guys who can fix some cars but not take tests well, but I have generally found ASE Certified technicians spend more time on training so are more qualified than their counterparts. I have been surrounded by ASE Certified techs for most of my career and have found the majority of them to be quite competent. Incompetents are usually weeded out quickly.
Brake fluid is a maintenance item, however most American manufacturers omit it or place it in a high mileage replacement interval in order to give the impression of lower cost of maintenance.
All fluids have a finite service life and brake fluid is one of them. I'd suggest reading a bit on it and see if you don't change your mind, but it sounds like your mind is made up which is of course your choice. Avoidance of failure of an ABM is but one of the things clean brake fluid prevents, but it also prolongs the life of wheel cylinders, master cylinders, calipers and brake piping. Brake piping corrodes from the inside as well as from the outside. Clean brake fluid also prevents brake fade. Gentle drivers might never notice.
BMW, Ford, Honda, Toyota, Subaru, VW, Land Rover, Jaguar, Volvo all recommend regular brake fluid changes. GM (recently added 100K - too long) and Chrysler do not.
Brake fluid is the most neglected fluid in an automobile. |
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BK3 join:2001-04-10 Geneva, IL 2 edits |
BK3
Member
2014-Sep-1 12:32 am
That may be why I don't do brake fluid - I am partial to MOPAR. Never had a brake failure on any of my Chrysler vehicles, regardless of age. Have had a brake failure on my one and only GM. (Will never own another GM) Never owned a BMW, Ford, Honda, Toyota, Subaru, VW, Land Rover, Jaguar or Volvo . If I did, and regular maintanance called for Brake Fluid change, then I would do it. |
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BK3 |
to fixrman
said by fixrman: I have generally found ASE Certified technicians spend more time on training so are more qualified than their counterparts. That may be so, but in these parts (with the possible exception of a few dealerships) that does not translate well in the field where the push is to get the cars in and out as fast as possible and move onto the next and worry about improper repairs later. Get the money, as much as you can, then NEXT! |
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to clevere1
said by clevere1:Bleeding the brakes, while a pain in the arse, helped quite a bit. In my book this is one of the simplest procedure, though it requires one extra person or a bleeder tool. (which I do not have) Try doing a rear main oil seal replacement once -- now, that is a truly *PITA* procedure. |
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BK3 join:2001-04-10 Geneva, IL |
BK3
Member
2014-Sep-1 1:10 am
said by clevere1:Try doing a rear main oil seal replacement once -- now, that is a truly *PITA* procedure. That's something I would not try to do on my own - If I decided to get it done, then I would have the tech I know, who has done well by me before on repairs I am not equipped to do, do that. It is just as likely I would just get rid of that vehicle. Fortunately I have not to face that yet. |
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to BK3
said by BK3:The brake fluid in my cars is clean and clear. How do you know that? Also, I see no reference to this being a maintenance item in my owner's manual. It just says to be sure the level doesn't drop below specified parameters. I found that rather interesting. But if you feel that this is required, then by all means do so. Sure wouldn't hurt anything so long as you know what you are doing. I've been doing my own break jobs ever since I got my first car, and while bleeding wasn't always absolutely required, normally I had better brake performance after the system was properly bled. I have to mention that I've never owned any car or truck with less than 100,000 miles on the odometer, and they were all over 200,000 when I got rid of them. |
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clevere1 Premium Member join:2002-01-06 Vancouver, WA |
to aurgathor
said by aurgathor:said by clevere1:Bleeding the brakes, while a pain in the arse, helped quite a bit. In my book this is one of the simplest procedure, though it requires one extra person or a bleeder tool. (which I do not have) Try doing a rear main oil seal replacement once -- now, that is a truly *PITA* procedure. I'm done a main seal or two in my life time.. those are easy, but a pain in the ass. I've never enjoyed bleeding brakes... |
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fixrmanFrom a broken heart to a hole in the sky Premium Member join:2003-02-10 Hatboro, PA ·Verizon FiOS
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to aurgathor
I wasn't always aware of the importance of brake fluid. I attended a brake seminar one time where we talked about the properties of brake fluid and why it is such a crappy fluid to get on bare skin. We went over conductivity, corrosion, boiling points and how the presence of a large percentage of copper in solution causes problems.
Back at the shop the next day, I took my '78 Monte Carlo out for a road test, noting the pedal feel before, during and after. Then I emtpied the master cylinder, wiped out the brown crud and refilled it with clear fluid. After blleding all four wheels and getting clear fluid from all bleeders, I topped it up and left the vehicle to cool. The pedal was higher and harder, the braking more effective. No fade.
So then I changed the brake fluid in my dad's truck without his knowledge later that week and told him I had changed his oil and rotated the tires. After he drove it he thanked me for also adjusting the rear brakes. I hadn't - just changed the brake fluid. |
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fixrman |
to clevere1
I'll gladly bleed your brakes Tuesday for a rear main seal replacement today. |
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I'm fairly certain he was talking some other "main seal" and not the rear main oil seal.
Maybe I'll start a separate thread on the most PITA jobs. |
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