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Snowy
Lock him up!!!
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join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI

Snowy to Konaguy

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to Konaguy

Re: Home Depot possible credit card data breach

said by Konaguy:

... and you're stuck paying the overdraft fees.

That's outrageous.
The bank that issues the card is the same bank that maintains the tied in account.
I'm sure overdraft fees would appear if the abuse created an overdraft but I have an extremely hard time believing they were never reversed out of the account.

Konaguy
Live From Hawaii
Premium Member
join:2000-10-21
Kailua Kona, HI

Konaguy

Premium Member

Its not a question of if the fees are reversed, but when. It may take sometime for the bank to sort through the fraud and make your account whole again. I cannot afford to take that risk.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium Member
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR

NOYB to Snowy

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to Snowy
said by Snowy:

I carry a balance on the CC so using the debit card I avoid interest charges.


But if the money is available to your debit card then it is also available to pay on your credit card balance and thus avoid the same interest charges. In fact you get to keep the money in your account for a few weeks longer too before paying.
said by Snowy:

I also tend to be an impulsive shopper - I see a new power drill on sale & I want it.
I've found using the debit card helps me give a second thought to such impulses.


But if you're carrying the credit card too then there is still nothing but willpower to stop you from making the purchase anyway.

Snowy
Lock him up!!!
Premium Member
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI

Snowy to Konaguy

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to Konaguy
said by Konaguy:

Its not a question of if the fees are reversed, but when.

Aah, yes, no question about it debit card abuse does carry the potential for headaches that credit card abuse does not carry.
It's good to know that the OD fees were eventually reversed.

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

mackey to Snowy

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to Snowy
said by Snowy:

I carry a balance on the CC so using the debit card I avoid interest charges.

Actually for me the opposite is true - I use my credit card so I avoid interest charges. If I pay a purchase off by the next bill I do not get charged anything, so I add new charges to the card and use the money I was going to use for those new charges to pay off old charges. As long as you purchase about what you pay you can keep everything rotating and not pay any interest. I haven't payed even $0.01 in interest in years.

/M

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
·Metronet

CylonRed to Snowy

MVM

to Snowy
said by Snowy:

e.g., debit card abuse steals account balances, possibly creating overdrafts, the temporary loss of the use of account balance funds but 'protections' = $0 liability for both types of cards when abuse is reported within what I consider to be a reasonable time.

Not the same still - fees from banks AND merchants for overdrafts do NOT have to be refunded and rarely will get refunded (ALL depends on the individual financial institutions). This can lead to HUGE fees depending on the person. This alone should be the single biggest reason not to use one and you do not have this issue with CC.

Another issue that I just heard on Clark Howards show - guy buys 'sod' and uses a debit card. Finds he got a couple pieces of sod and the rest are remanents at best. Calls the bank to dispute the charge - after 30 days they reinstate the charge since the customers beef is only via the merchant and not the bank. They got to the merchant who says - tough. The ONLY recourse the person now has is small claims court.

If they had used a CC then they could have provided evidence to the CC company and they cold then decide if they got what they paid for and very possibly won the dispute.

A list of some of the major issues with fake visa and mastercards:

»www.clarkhoward.com/news ··· it/nCds/

They simply do NOT have the same protections as a regular visa or mastercard.

jmorlan
Hmm... That's funny.
MVM
join:2001-02-05
Pacifica, CA
ARRIS BGW210-700
Obihai OBi200

jmorlan to mackey

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to mackey
said by mackey:


European rules do not apply to the US even if a pin is used [in the US].

True. On August 1st Australia went to mandatory chip & pin for all credit card purchases. However if you are using a non-Australian card you can still use signature only or chip and signature. Either way, your fraud protection is determined by the country (or bank) issuing the card, not by the merchant or the country where the merchant is located.

Snowy
Lock him up!!!
Premium Member
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI

Snowy to CylonRed

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to CylonRed
said by CylonRed:

Not the same still - fees from banks AND merchants for overdrafts do NOT have to be refunded and rarely will get refunded (ALL depends on the individual financial institutions). This can lead to HUGE fees depending on the person. This alone should be the single biggest reason not to use one and you do not have this issue with CC.

A bank not reversing OD fees due to the fraudulent use of a debit card?
I suppose its happened to someone somewhere but not from any of the larger banks.
re merchants not reversing returned check fees -
That's about paper checks -
How many paper checks get drawn from accounts with debit card access??
That's one of the advantages of using a debut card, IMO - eliminating that paper check book.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20

Premium Member

There are NO advantages and MANY disadvantages to using a debit card. Many folks cannot eliminate checks. You seem to assume every person owns their home. You have to write checks for rent and you are a stupid fool (especially in Hawaii) if you don't write checks for medical copays and other medical expenses. (Maybe on Oahu all doctors are taking credit cards now but here almost none do) so it is check or cash and you are an utter fool to pay with cash. Also, unless you like unreasonable fees that cannot be avoided (since the closing of the Hawaiian Telcom stores in shopping centers), you need to write checks if you have a Hawaiian Telcom landline. There are still many valid, SENSIBLE reasons for writing some checks.

Most folks have debit cards for cash withdrawal at ATMs. Younger folks are brutally intimidated and given a nasty false sale by the asshole banks regarding debit cards. They are lied to and told there are no ATM only cards these days. I have three ATM only cards and no debit cards. But these days, who needs cash? Everything goes on a credit card as that is the safest for many reasons.

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
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CylonRed to Snowy

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to Snowy
There is no requirements for banks to return overdraft fees OR cover merchant fees to the customer. It is ALL up to the individual financial institution - too big of a risk.

Most debits cards are coming from a checking account. I know many people who use debit cards and NONE have the cards on a non-checking account.

Many, many, many people like me still use checks - not a ton but we still use them. It is not just checks either - it is accounts were payments are coming from via a financial institutions bill pay.

A friend had their debit card taken for close to $600 - and now has to wait before the money comes back. $600 they can't use right now.

What happens if you are on vacation for a week or 2 with no internet service and the debit card is compromised? Most banks only give (in writing) 5 days to report.

Mele - I know of no one who never uses cash. For many folks it is best they use cash. I hate charging $3 lunch (or any meal) to a credit card. Just makes my CC reconciliation that much more difficult.

Snowy
Lock him up!!!
Premium Member
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI

Snowy

Premium Member

said by CylonRed:

What happens if you are on vacation for a week or 2 with no internet service and the debit card is compromised? Most banks only give (in writing) 5 days to report.

Obviously difference of opinion exist.
My opinion is jaded by a time when using a CC to pay for day to day expenses e.g., groceries, gas etc... was just a bad idea period.

To clarify my debit card use I seldom use the PIN option, opting to run to run it as CC purchase at the POS & recommend that process for anyone else that uses a debit card.

The strongest reason posted, IMO to not use a debit card is the 5 day window for reporting losses due to unauthorized use.

Credit Card abuse falls under the Fair Credit Billing Act which has a set rules that favor the consumer whereas Debit Cards fall under the Electronic Fund Transfer Act where the consumer is placed at true risk in the event of unauthorized use.

You'd think that alone would be good reason to avoid even having a debit card.
If that were the end of story it would be but it's not.

From a consumers POV there is absolutely zero difference between CC/Debit Card losses due to abuse for any VISA branded card.
(That's probably true with MasterCard but since I don't deal with them I can't say for sure)

The only 5 day window with VISA is the 5 day window that member banks have to replace funds to any account lost to debit card abuse (contingency replacement).

5 days to report a loss or eat it?
Not true.

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
·Metronet

CylonRed

MVM

Running the purchase as a credit does not give an appreciable safety net. It is no where near the same as a true cc purchase. Thos is why clark howard refers to.the branded debit cards as 'piece of trash, fake visa/ master cards'. Sunce their logos are on yhe cards, people think they have the exact same protections. Unfortunately they do not in any way have the same protections.

The strongest reason not touse adebit catd remains to be the lack of consumer protections, period. People have to pay massive fees due to overages.

Not very long ago, a pos at kings island multiple billed debit and credit cards. There was a world of difference in how the 2 were dealt with. Call the cc company or go online and dispute the charges. Debit card holders lost the use of the money (till.the issue was resolved) AND had to pay any merchant nsf fee. One peson had to pay several hundred dollars. This incident was one where one purchase might billed 10 or more times, so even a small purchase could become quite large.

Stories of debit card nightmares are pretty easy to come by. From financial unstitutions taking over a week to return money to having to pay hundreds in nsf fees from merchants. As for the amount of time to report, varies,with each institution and can be as little as 2 days.

And we have not even talked about the dangers in my previous link where hotels and gas stations (to name a couple) that put holds on purchases. This can wreck havoc for those that dont know about it. The hold amount can be several times the end purchase amount, royally screwung people who dont or cant have a spare several hundred dollars in their checking account s..
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

said by CylonRed:

Not very long ago, a pos at kings island multiple billed debit and credit cards.

Even though I am a merchant, I saw "pos" and thought that you were talking about a "piece of shit" incompetent worker, rather than a "point of sale" device.

Snowy
Lock him up!!!
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join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI

Snowy to CylonRed

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to CylonRed
said by CylonRed:

Stories of debit card nightmares are pretty easy to come by.

We both agree on that.

One needs look no further than this thread to find stories about debit card nightmares.
The story about a 5 day window to report it or lose it is a good example of debit card nightmare stories.

The only reason I responded to the 5 day report it or lose it post was to be sure no one actually left this thread believing that was fact.

Speaking of leaving this thread - aloha oi
Snowy

Snowy to CylonRed

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to CylonRed
said by CylonRed:

Running the purchase as a credit does not give an appreciable safety net.

OK, I broke my self banishment from this thread but I hadn't caught the implications of the fact quoted above.

As politely as I can say it & it must be said, that is flat out nonfactual.
Seriously, I can't keep replying to these myths presented as fact - caution advised on all subsequent 'facts'.

Once again, aloha.

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
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CylonRed to PX Eliezer1

MVM

to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:

said by CylonRed:

Not very long ago, a pos at kings island multiple billed debit and credit cards.

Even though I am a merchant, I saw "pos" and thought that you were talking about a "piece of shit" incompetent worker, rather than a "point of sale" device.

I have always thought POS was a really poor acronym... same problem I have.
CylonRed

CylonRed to Snowy

MVM

to Snowy
quote:
ederal law isn't the only word on this issue, however. The major card associations, MasterCard and Visa, require member card issuers to offer "Zero Liability" policies. With Visa's Zero Liability policy, for example, you won't be responsible for fraudulent charges to your Visa Debit card, unless by chance the thief used your PIN number and the transaction is processed on a network outside Visa's network. (Even then, you would still be protected under the EFTA rules limiting your liability to $50 if you report the loss or theft promptly.)

Keep in mind that even if you aren't out the money you lose to a debit card thief permanently, it can take a while to get funds back into your account. In the meantime, you could be scrambling for the money you need to pay your bills.

Federal law gives issuers ten business days to temporarily credit your account when your debit card has been compromised. (That deadline is extended to twenty business days in the case of new accounts.) Visa requires members to provisionally credit your account within five business days, though, and reports that many issuers will credit your account within 24 %u2013 48 hours. Bank of America, for example, offers credit within the next business day if your card is lost or stolen and used by a thief. MasterCard offers zero liability for most debit transactions as well.

Credit cards, on the other hand, fall under the Fair Credit Billing Act, which protects you from losing more than $50 if a thief uses your account. Technically there is no time limit for disputing fraudulent use of a credit card, though the card issuer may be suspicious if you wait too long. Since you are using the card company's money, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to report the loss, or how long it takes them to resolve it. Still, you want to resolve it as quickly as you can.
quote:

Risks

Using a debit card with the credit option carries some risks. Depending on your bank, you may accidentally overdraw using the card and end up paying a large fee; some cards will not let you use the card if there is not enough money in the account. If your debit card number is stolen, and someone uses it fraudulently, you lose money from your account right away. You may get it back, but in the meantime, you may run short of cash.

»www.dfi.wa.gov/consumers ··· .htm#top
quote:
What federal protections cover consumers who use debit cards?

The federal Electronic Fund Transfer Act (EFTA) protects you from errors, loss or theft of your debit card. However, unlike the Truth in Lending Act protections for credit cards, which cap a consumer's liability for unauthorized transactions at $50, the law limits liability to $50 if the debit cardholder notifies the bank within two business days after discovering the theft. If you don't notify your bank within those two days, you could lose up to $500, or perhaps more. In the worst-case scenario %u2014 if you receive a bank statement that includes an unauthorized debit-card withdrawal and you wait more than 60 days to alert your bank %u2014 you could be liable for any amounts from transactions made after that 60-day period.

The good news is that many banks don't hold a consumer responsible for unauthorized transactions if he or she notifies the institution in a timely fashion. But remember that with a debit card, the money tapped by the thief has already been taken out of your account.

Under the EFTA, a bank has 10 business days to investigate the matter (20 business days if your account is new) and report back to you with its results. If the bank needs additional time, it may, under certain circumstances, temporarily give you some or all of the disputed amount until it finishes its investigation. Generally, a bank is allowed up to 45 days of additional investigation time (90 days for certain transactions). "But until the dispute is resolved," said Creamean, "you should be prepared to pay your mortgage, car payment, credit card bill and any other obligations that may come due." Also, she said, if the bank's investigation finds there was no error, theft or loss, it can take back the money it put into your account, after notifying you.
The debit card is not nor will it ever be a credit card - period. Running a debit as a 'credit' is like a check and not a credit card transaction (because it is NOT a credit card by definition).

Not the same... not myth.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to GuruGuy

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to GuruGuy
I'm fortunate enough to have an ATM card that is not a MC/Visa debit card.

Just a plain ATM card.

Issued in 1997 and I hope it keeps working!

No way would I want a MC/Visa directly accessing my bank accounts!

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
·Metronet

CylonRed

MVM

said by PX Eliezer1:

I'm fortunate enough to have an ATM card that is not a MC/Visa debit card.

Just a plain ATM card.

Same here - I refused the debit card and have only had an ATM card.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium Member
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR

NOYB to Snowy

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to Snowy
said by Snowy:

My opinion is jaded by a time when using a CC to pay for day to day expenses e.g., groceries, gas etc... was just a bad idea period.


When was that and why was it a bad idea?

Hope you'll return to respond. I'm really liking hearing all the various credit vs. debit card pros and cons opinions from everyone. It's very enlightening.

Snowy
Lock him up!!!
Premium Member
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI

2 edits

Snowy

Premium Member

said by NOYB:

said by Snowy:

My opinion is jaded by a time when using a CC to pay for day to day expenses e.g., groceries, gas etc... was just a bad idea period.


When was that and why was it a bad idea?

Hope you'll return to respond. I'm really liking hearing all the various credit vs. debit card pros and cons opinions from everyone. It's very enlightening.

I have no problem responding to a post that is seeking info -

2. Don't use your credit card to make everyday purchases. Items like food, clothing, and gas shouldn't be purchased with a credit card. Using your credit card as a substitute for cash is a habit that can quickly lead to debt. For ordinary purchases, leave your credit card in your wallet and use cash or debit card instead."
»credit.about.com/od/cred ··· onts.htm

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium Member
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR

NOYB

Premium Member


Thanks. Was thinking maybe there was a security/fraud issue in play.

Pay for nearly everything with credit card (convenience). But never over spend. If the cash isn't available to cover a purchase then the purchase is not made. Very disciplined to pay off entire balance every month. Abhor debt. Doing without is more satisfying than any fleeting enjoyment a bunch of unpaid for junk can bring about.

If I want something that I don't have the cash for then I save up for it just like I would have to do if purchasing it with cash. But make the purchase with credit card and pay the entire statement balance.

Being a slave to debt is a poor way to live.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to Snowy

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to Snowy
said by Snowy:

2. Don't use your credit card to make everyday purchases. Items like food, clothing, and gas shouldn't be purchased with a credit card. Using your credit card as a substitute for cash is a habit that can quickly lead to debt. For ordinary purchases, leave your credit card in your wallet and use cash or debit card instead."

How does paying off a credit card in full every month (just as everyone does with Macy's/Sears because of their insane interest rates) lead to debt? Do you shop in Macy's? Here it is just about the only place to buy clothes that are of decent quality. I find it hard to believe you shop at Macy's sales where you get an additional 20% or more off the item if you use your Macy's card. Why would you deliberately lose money just so you could pay cash?

Same with mileage and cash back credit cards. They are the best ones if you pay the card in full every month. I have a Visa Signature CapitalOne Quicksilver card. I got the card about nine months ago. It came with $100 in cash rewards just for accepting the card. It also has zero interest, no balance transfer fees for one year and 1.5% cash back on every purchase of anything. I'll have the purchase I put on it right after I got it paid off before the year's free interest is up and at that time I will put on it only what I know I can pay in full each month. So, I currently have $114 cash back sitting there for me to claim at anytime (and no strings when claiming...unlike with my Discover It card which has a weird restriction imposed by the state of Hawaii) and any future purchases earn 1.5% cash back on anything purchased with the card.

I'm not sure what planet that writer you quoted is from but I don't consider clothing, shoes, purses, hats, jewelry, etc to be on par with grocery store and gas purchases. Besides, I shop mostly at Macy's and I'd be a fool to pay a lot more for clothes, coffee maker, vacuum cleaner, etc. because I took that writer's advice.

I think it is extremely foolish and even irresponsible to tell people to pay with cash or debit card. Debit card one should NEVER have. That leaves checks or cash. Checks tie up the checkout line and get you dirty looks. Cash...well that writer must be a big, burly, very muscled, in perfect shape guy who lives in a state where it is easy to get a carry permit. A 100 pound woman (especially in a state like Hawaii) would be crazy to carry a lot of cash around! I almost NEVER use cash these days...everything goes on a credit card unless under $5 and sometimes then too as I might not have more than a dollar and some change in my billfold.

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
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CylonRed to Snowy

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to Snowy
quote:
2. Don't use your credit card to make everyday purchases. Items like food, clothing, and gas shouldn't be purchased with a credit card. Using your credit card as a substitute for cash is a habit that can quickly lead to debt. For ordinary purchases, leave your credit card in your wallet and use cash or debit card instead."
BS - sorry but this is just dead wrong unless a person can't deal with credit cards. For those of us how can deal with credit properly - perfectly fine.
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave

Premium Member

"Don't have a glass of wine with dinner, it's a habit that can quickly lead to alcoholism".

Snowy
Lock him up!!!
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join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI

Snowy to CylonRed

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to CylonRed
said by CylonRed:

For those of us how can deal with credit properly - perfectly fine.

said by dave:

"Don't have a glass of wine with dinner, it's a habit that can quickly lead to alcoholism".

Or make you become incoherent.
Snowy

Snowy to dave

Premium Member

to dave
quote:
Using your credit card as a substitute for cash is a habit that can quickly lead to debt.

said by dave:

"Don't have a glass of wine with dinner, it's a habit that can quickly lead to alcoholism".

I'm starting to believe that the one glass of wine with dinner is grossly understated.
Snowy

Snowy to CylonRed

Premium Member

to CylonRed
said by CylonRed:


With Visa's Zero Liability policy, for example, you won't be responsible for fraudulent charges to your Visa Debit card, unless by chance the thief used your PIN number and the transaction is processed on a network outside Visa's network.

Wow! that post reply was a long quote!
I won't bother pointing out how your quote directly contradicted statements you've previously made in this thread but rather use your knowledge as an educational opportunity for myself & others.

What does out of VISA's network mean?
Where would one be more likely to have an out of network transaction?
How can one know whether a transaction will be processed in or out of VISA'a network?
Davek
join:2014-07-17

Davek to Mele20

Member

to Mele20
quote:
Why would you deliberately lose money just so you could pay cash?
I used to have and use a cash back credit card regularly. There were two reasons I decided to let it go:

1) Their terms of use put everything in the card issuer's favor. In practice, most people most of the time don't have too much issue with credit cards so it may be a small concern. But heavy fees, short payment windows, and binding arbitration are all pretty much standard. If something does go wrong, you will pay and you've given up your legal rights to dispute.

2) Everything you use the card for is being logged, databased, catagorized, and sold.

Maybe that 1.5% is worth it for some, but it wasn't for me - eventually anyway.

Exidor
Premium Member
join:2001-05-04

Exidor

Premium Member

said by Davek:

2) Everything you use the card for is being logged, databased, catagorized, and sold.

From reading other threads in this forum, I got the impression that people who were very privacy-conscious would never use loyalty cards or credit cards but instead pay cash for everything.