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twinclouds
join:2010-06-12
San Diego, CA

twinclouds to josephf

Member

to josephf

Re: [General] Google Voice is now Officially Supported on OBi VoIP devices

Interesting. However, it seems to me nothing has been changed. What does he refer to "we were able to solve that now." "With out support?" People are doing the same thing for many years. If it is the case, I guess XMPP will not stop working for some time, until Google change its mind again.

josephf
join:2009-04-26

josephf

Member

See the link in my post where you can read the Google Engineer's full comment to understand the context better.
nitzan
Premium Member
join:2008-02-27

nitzan to josephf

Premium Member

to josephf
said by josephf:

said by twinclouds:

After reading all of the posts, I am really confused about what triggered obi's "official support" statement.

There's been a post earlier in the day by Google's Director of Engineering, who is in charge of Google Hangouts and Google Voice:

"i'm thrilled that we were able to solve that now and have obihai devices officially supported!"

»plus.google.com/+CheeChe ··· 3GxJ5hWK

If this is actually true, and this is official, then Google Voice is now officially a phone service - something they've been resisting for years. Legal implications abound. But maybe it's about time Google and Obihai faced the music - they've been stealing customers from VOIP providers for years, limiting innovation and killing the industry.
nitzan

nitzan to PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:

Yes, razor-thin profit margins for service providers, so how very helpful of a huge company like Google to come along and provide service for free. (That's sarcasm BTW). Using their immense wealth to do that, to help drive small providers out of business, is NOT a community benefit. It's predatory marketing.

Thank you for "getting it".
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

said by nitzan:

said by PX Eliezer1:

Yes, razor-thin profit margins for service providers, so how very helpful of a huge company like Google to come along and provide service for free. (That's sarcasm BTW). Using their immense wealth to do that, to help drive small providers out of business, is NOT a community benefit. It's predatory marketing.

Thank you for "getting it".

You're welcome.

One main motivation for Google is that this fits so well into their data mining business. It's amazing that to save a few bucks people will give up their privacy.

Another is that Google is a fierce rival in many ways to Microsoft, so this becomes a battle between GV and Microsoft's Skype.
andre2
join:2005-08-24
Brookline, MA

andre2

Member

said by PX Eliezer1:

You're welcome.

One main motivation for Google is that this fits so well into their data mining business. It's amazing that to save a few bucks people will give up their privacy.

Thanks to the NSA, people have no privacy regardless of provider. In any case, if people choose to "give up their privacy" (as if they had a choice), Google's behavior isn't "predatory" unless they plan to first put other VoIP providers out of business, then take advantage of the resulting monopoly to do something harmful to customers (traditionally raise prices) that they're not doing now. What exactly?
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

said by andre2:

Google's behavior isn't "predatory" unless they plan to first put other VoIP providers out of business, then take advantage of the resulting monopoly to do something harmful to customers (traditionally raise prices) that they're not doing now. What exactly?

That's certainly the traditional definition, but in a world of services for which no money changes hands the traditional definition is irrelevant.

Google's main business is data mining.

You are not their customer, rather you are their product.

As someone pointed out the other day, the farmer fattening up his pigs or cattle for the slaughter, does not charge them for their food.

It's not Google's intention to charge you for phone service, that's not how they make their money.

The more data that they can mine from more people, the more money that the company earns.

Unless you think they are altruists, like those aliens in the story "To Serve Man".

(In that story too, the aliens provided everything for free, but it was for their own selfish interests).

TL/DR:
You are not their customer, rather you are their product.
OzarkEdge
join:2014-02-23
USA

OzarkEdge to josephf

Member

to josephf
said by josephf:

Correct. Many websites accept Google login authorization and none of them ever see your Google password or credentials.

When OBiTALK.com requires me to enter my Google account credentials to setup Google Voice on my OBi, I will assume that my Google account credentials are now the property of Obihai Technology, Inc. Of course, I'll never do this.

OE
Mango
Use DMZ and you get a kick in the dick.
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
www.toao.net

Mango

Premium Member

I haven't tried it, but I would assume the credentials are entered directly to Google. Can anyone confirm?
andre2
join:2005-08-24
Brookline, MA

andre2 to PX Eliezer1

Member

to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:

That's certainly the traditional definition, but in a world of services for which no money changes hands the traditional definition is irrelevant.

Google's main business is data mining.

You are not their customer, rather you are their product.

Yes, I know. Their current "customers" (or products, or whatever you want to call them) are already aware of that. What is Google planning to do that they're not doing now, that the "customers" would actually object to, but not be able to escape once the other VoIP providers are out of business? And is the barrier to entry high enough that new VoIP providers won't arise and take that monopoly away again?
OzarkEdge
join:2014-02-23
USA

2 edits

1 recommendation

OzarkEdge to Mango

Member

to Mango
said by Mango:

I haven't tried it, but I would assume the credentials are entered directly to Google. Can anyone confirm?

»www.obihai.com/tutorial7-202

Maybe that tutorial is pre-OAUTH2 implementation... what Google was objecting to. If so, GV/OBi users should change their Google password and, if they continue using OBiTALK.com, hope OAUTH2 protects it.

Perhaps Obihai failed to explain this whole GV situation adequately publically because they did not want to explain how they compromised everyone's Google account credentials by storing them on their server.

OE
mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA

mazilo to twinclouds

Premium Member

to twinclouds
said by twinclouds:

After reading all of the posts, I am really confused about what triggered obi's "official support" statement. Nothing seems have changed. Did obi get Google's promise that XMPP will never go away?

This is just my speculation.

Looking back, I think Google went to tell all, including OBiHai, to implement OAUTH 2.0 or else to stop supporting GV on their services. Now, since OBiHai has implemented OAUTH 2.0 on its OBiNET, then it is safe to start supporting GV. OBiHai could have just implemented the OAUTH 2.0, instead of announcing its termination support on GV back then that caused a lot of chaos.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to andre2

Premium Member

to andre2
said by andre2:

said by PX Eliezer1:

That's certainly the traditional definition, but in a world of services for which no money changes hands the traditional definition is irrelevant.

Google's main business is data mining.

You are not their customer, rather you are their product.

Yes, I know. Their current "customers" (or products, or whatever you want to call them) are already aware of that. What is Google planning to do that they're not doing now, that the "customers" would actually object to, but not be able to escape once the other VoIP providers are out of business? And is the barrier to entry high enough that new VoIP providers won't arise and take that monopoly away again?

If these vague teases from Google are to be believed, what they are doing is getting back into the phone business which they had seemed to be ignoring and taking for granted.

As for your other, I don't think that many folks will go out of business except maybe some of the newcomers, but having to compete with "free" is sure a bitch.

If Robert Heinlein were here today, TANSTAAFL would become TANSTAAFC.

What is Google planning to do that they're not doing now, that the "customers" would actually object to, but not be able to escape....

It's hard to escape once you have been cooked and placed inside the Oscar Mayer package.
andre2
join:2005-08-24
Brookline, MA

andre2 to mazilo

Member

to mazilo
said by mazilo:

Looking back, I think Google went to tell all, including OBiHai, to implement OAUTH 2.0 or else to stop supporting GV on their services. Now, since OBiHai has implemented OAUTH 2.0 on its OBiNET, then it is safe to start supporting GV. OBiHai could have just implemented the OAUTH 2.0, instead of announcing its termination support on GV back then that caused a lot of chaos.

I don't know if it means anything (maybe it's just lack of maintenance) but Obihai still hasn't listed the new OATH 2.0 firmware updates on its "Latest Firmware Updates for OBi Devices" page.

»www.obitalk.com/forum/in ··· opic=9.0
mdseuss
join:2012-05-27
Worcester, MA

mdseuss to OzarkEdge

Member

to OzarkEdge

I just grabbed a spare Obi202 and configured FOUR Google Voice lines on it. It. Just. Works.

At no time did Obitalk setup ask for my Google password. Hint: My browser was already logged into each Google account as I configured the Obi device.

Bravo to the Obi configuration / web folks for making it work so smoothly. *THIS* is why I love Obi products, their web hosted configuration manager sure beats the hell out of all VoIP device configuration methods I've seen in the past (especially for devices with FXO/FXS support).

I have Costco sized rolls of tin foil in my kitchen, but I haven't fashioned any hats out of them.

simontel
@96.247.184.x

1 recommendation

simontel

Anon

said by mdseuss:

*THIS* is why I love Obi products,

Obihai seems to have some special favor in that they can jerk their user base around and provide (reportedly) dismal customer service and still get praises like this. Baffling, but hey, good for them.
mdseuss
join:2012-05-27
Worcester, MA

mdseuss

Member


In fairness, I'm fairly sure that if ObiHAI handed out gold bars for free they'd still have complaints.

I just don't see the "jerk customer base around" point at all. I only see "no good deed [GV integration] goes unpunished". We all read the Google announcement. I'm not sure how ObiHAI could have handled it any differently?
OzarkEdge
join:2014-02-23
USA

1 recommendation

OzarkEdge to mdseuss

Member

to mdseuss
said by mdseuss:

I have Costco sized rolls of tin foil in my kitchen, but I haven't fashioned any hats out of them.

There is no good reason to ridicule anyone concerned about securing their personal information.

OE

josephf
join:2009-04-26

1 recommendation

josephf to OzarkEdge

Member

to OzarkEdge
said by OzarkEdge:

said by josephf:

Correct. Many websites accept Google login authorization and none of them ever see your Google password or credentials.

When OBiTALK.com requires me to enter my Google account credentials to setup Google Voice on my OBi, I will assume that my Google account credentials are now the property of Obihai Technology, Inc. Of course, I'll never do this.

OE

said by Mango:

I haven't tried it, but I would assume the credentials are entered directly to Google. Can anyone confirm?

You 'll be entering the credentials directly on a Google page not an OBi page.

simontel
@96.247.184.x

simontel to mdseuss

Anon

to mdseuss
I did not say that they were without a reasonable excuse. Regardless, the GV -> No GV -> GV changes, with varying degrees of information and misinformation along the way, still feels to the end user like they are being jerked around.
OzarkEdge
join:2014-02-23
USA

OzarkEdge to josephf

Member

to josephf
said by josephf:

You 'll be entering the credentials directly on a Google page not an OBi page.

Thanks, that must be the OAUTH2 affect.

OE
mdseuss
join:2012-05-27
Worcester, MA

mdseuss to OzarkEdge

Member

to OzarkEdge

Was it really that hard to try the new authentication before adding to giant mound of speculation in this thread?

I blame half of the unwarranted vilification of Obi from the sheer amount of misinformation posted by us end users.

On the risk scale, I would worry far less about Obi having my Asterisk SIP extensions and passwords in their config db than say using my debit card at .... Home Depot. (Which is why I never, ever, use a debit card, btw)
Will Hill
join:2009-06-07

Will Hill to nitzan

Member

to nitzan
said by nitzan:

But maybe it's about time Google and Obihai faced the music - they've been stealing customers from VOIP providers for years, limiting innovation and killing the industry.

Yahoo said almost the exact same thing when Google announced Gmail with 1GB of free space while Yahoo, Microsoft and the other "free" providers were giving users 5 or 10 MB and charging everyone for space above that in 25 MB increments. And of course free accounts did not have "premium" features such as forwarding or spam filtering. A Yahoo executive was quoted in the NY Times saying that Google just killed off any profit and innovation in the e-mail industry.
mdseuss
join:2012-05-27
Worcester, MA

mdseuss to simontel

Member

to simontel

Peace, from where I sit all I saw was uncertainty generated by Google and Obi trying to do the right thing in an obvious Google-Planning vacuum that we all live in.

Even if Obi / Google Voice never met, I would still sing high praises for the configuration management (it is fucking brilliant that I can tweak just one value from their defaults and have it managed by them ongoing). The devices just work (out of 20 or so I've bought or had other folks buy, just one power supply failure and one did not survive lightning). Good price points. The Obi110 has been a brilliant solution to a lot of friends and family needs.

And having said all that, I loved your YATE configuration and would love to use it again
dutchtender
join:2010-11-21
Sunnyvale, CA

3 edits

1 recommendation

dutchtender to PX Eliezer1

Member

to PX Eliezer1
actually the VOIP business has a number of headwinds. the biggest one is young people. young people don't talk as much. it takes time away from using apps, browsing web, texting, chatting etc. the fact is that with new ways to communicate we don't talk as much. old people still like to talk on phone. but you know what happens as we get older.

so that's the first mega trend. and it's a doozy. second trend is mobility. we no longer have to be tied to our communication technology by a 4ft rubber cable. even at home we can be mobile. we don't have to be where the phone is or go to it when it rings. we can take it with us. even small business people don't need to work from home anymore. they can go to a park restaurant coffee shop library and silently use phone tablet or computer or even take a phone call or make one.

good enough. Most people don't need perfect sound. they are used to dropped garbled calls. it's an acceptable part of life. yes there are always fastidious people with time and money on their hands. they are part of a niche market. However, even the sound and call experience get better as mobile technologies improve. Mobile phones are very good phones for talking even today. Iphone is world class. so are the best android and windows phones. Great speakers and audio quality.

In business yes they have been buying IP phones. but even there the trend is for mobility. Ring your desk phone or your mobile. Because you may not be at your desk and you still want to talk. I follow stocks, and I own stock in Polycom. It hasn't done very well in recent years because IP communications has become more of a commodity hardware (china) product. And because of mobile displacement. It is starting to do better after some restructuring. But it's still a very tough business to be in and I envision that it will be sold someday, perhaps to a company like Cisco or maybe to one in China.

As for innovation being in IP phones I disagree. The phones haven't changed all that much. the biggest change in the last few years has been better screens and Android OS. They are still a bear for the average consumer to get up and running. It's not a friendly product. I monitor Amazon quite a lot. And IP phones are not a mass market on Amazon. they are niches. DECT IP phones are not the answer either. I owned a Panasonic and it offered a terrible configuration experience to the user. The IP phone business is not a dynamic business. it's a stable business, and one that China Inc has already learned to copy very well.

mom and pop voip providers still do not offer a consumer friendly product. far from it. The configuration process is a nightmare and not something the average joe on the street could even attempt. Not only do these providers have to worry about young people and Mobile, they have to worry about Cable, and POTS as well. Then there is skype, vonage majick jack,ooma etc. All friendlier consumer experiences than mom and pop voip.

My own experience with mom and pop voip has been mixed. Yes it's hard to configure and I am ex IT. it's something the average person would Never attempt. But even after getting it configured, I was faced with a terrible consumer experience. Once I put some money with a mom and pop provider and I logged in and discovered my account had been drained of almost every last penny, used by a hacker to make phone calls in Africa. I then discovered it was "my fault" and I would not be seeing any reimbursement. My experience with CC has been far better. But even with them there was a large outing related to Sandy and a denial of service attack that impaired the consumer experience.

I don't blame google at all. In fact google has been an innovator with voice and has been trying to make it work. but it's even been a tough nut for google, as deep as their pockets are. OBI has been very smart about trying to figure out where the puck is going. I applaud them for trying to broaden the market for VOIP technology, even if it means pissing off the tweakers, who like things as they are.
Mango
Use DMZ and you get a kick in the dick.
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
www.toao.net

Mango to Will Hill

Premium Member

to Will Hill
said by Will Hill:

A Yahoo executive was quoted in the NY Times saying that Google just killed off any profit and innovation in the e-mail industry.

In any industry, there will almost always be someone who tries to undercut your price. But innovation is limited only by your imagination.

That executive is only correct if it's impossible to do email (the concept applies to Voice as well) better than Google. If I were Yahoo, instead of complaining about my competitor, I would start planning ways to make my product better than theirs. The day innovation is killed will be the day that everything that can be invented has been invented. I think we're a ways off yet.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to dutchtender

Premium Member

to dutchtender
said by dutchtender:

actually the VOIP business has a number of headwinds....

I agree with some of your points, not with others, but thanks for a thoughtful analysis.

-----

I would say this: When I first got involved with VoIP, I was 52 years old, and had [no] tech background at all....

Unless you count a computer science course from 1975.

And my first provider (whom I still use) was the BYOD provider CallWithUs (CWU) with a GS Handytone 286.

I've never had any problem configuring anything, with several providers including CWU, CC, Voip.MS, Localphone, and others.

Asterisk is a challenge I am sure. And the things that mazilo does with a pogo stick are probably illegal in Texas.

But setting up an ATA with providers such as those I named, just does not seem that hard.

And of course, the mass marketers such as Vonage and their Basic Talk are even easier....
OzarkEdge
join:2014-02-23
USA

1 recommendation

OzarkEdge to mdseuss

Member

to mdseuss
said by mdseuss:

Was it really that hard to try the new authentication before adding to giant mound of speculation in this thread?

I blame half of the unwarranted vilification of Obi from the sheer amount of misinformation posted by us end users.

On the risk scale, I would worry far less about Obi having my Asterisk SIP extensions and passwords in their config db than say using my debit card at .... Home Depot. (Which is why I never, ever, use a debit card, btw)

Oh look... 5 million gmail credentials exposed online: »www.networkworld.com/art ··· ine.html

And not one from hacking Google. I wonder where one goes to dig up 5 million gmail credentials. We'll never know because most security breaches are never reported.

OE
andre2
join:2005-08-24
Brookline, MA

andre2

Member

I created my Gmail account around 5 years ago solely for the purpose of using it for my OBi device (as I recall), and have never used it (except for checking a handful of emails Google sends to me automatically), or given out the email address. Yet it's inundated with spam (which all goes to the spam filter). I have no idea how that happened.
dutchtender
join:2010-11-21
Sunnyvale, CA

dutchtender to PX Eliezer1

Member

to PX Eliezer1
I don't see you as the typical consumer.