FreeThinkerdisgruntled crapsavvy customer join:2008-10-16 australia 2 edits |
[DSL] Sagecom 2864-000000-002 vdsl2* (looking for alternative)Given the sad piece of hardware that this thing is; i am looking for an alternative to use with teksavvy. I am not looking for a name brand, looks or a billion features. Just a fair/decent stable piece of hardware with a few things in mind. - It does not need to be cable/*dsl (2 in 1) type modem. - It does not need have wireless capabilities. i am perfectly ok with using a second wireless router. - Although affordability is preferred it is always good to know about more options. - It will have to support at least a 15/10 mbits line. - 4 ethernet ports preferred Bonus points if it is supported for openwrt/linux Notes of relevance: About the smartrg alternative: » Re: [DSL] Sagecom 2864-000000-002 vdsl2* (looking for alternative) |
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SmartRG SR808ac Asus RT-AC86 SmartRG SR505N
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The only two officially supported modems for VDSL packages are complete home gateways (Sagemcom, and the SmartRG 505n). If your only qualms with the Sagemcom is the terrible firmware, and don't actually have any problem with the modem syncing, the cheapest (in fact, it's free) solution is to just use PPPoE pass-through, it will work with no performance hit on the 15/10 package. I do this with my Sagemcom and run an RT-N66U and never looked back.
Simply remove the PPPoE credentials from the Sagemcom (have to factory reset), plug your new router in on LAN1, and put the login credentials in your new router. |
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to FreeThinker
The best VDSL modem is the SmartRG SR505n, hands down. |
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FreeThinkerdisgruntled crapsavvy customer join:2008-10-16 australia |
said by "i_pk_pjers_i" : The best VDSL modem is the SmartRG SR505n, hands down.
What other hardware (aside the sagecom ) have you compared the SmartRG SR505n and in what ways has it performed better ? |
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to FreeThinker
Depends if you're connected on a 7330 SLAM or Stinger SLAM. |
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FreeThinkerdisgruntled crapsavvy customer join:2008-10-16 australia |
to digiwth
The biggest problem i am having with the Sagemcom is the loss of connectivity and random reboots. It just simply reboots from time to time; either manually done by the isp (bell or tsi) by remote firmware access or it is simply not working well. As for power stability; i have it plugged to an ups. |
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to FreeThinker
said by FreeThinker:said by "i_pk_pjers_i" : The best VDSL modem is the SmartRG SR505n, hands down.
What other hardware (aside the sagecom ) have you compared the SmartRG SR505n and in what ways has it performed better ? As digiwth said, there are only 2 supported modems allowed on the Bhell network at the moment. SmartRG is without a doubt better than the Sagemcom. There are unsupported modems that might work (no idea what they are) but you would be doing so at your own risk. Random reboots usually mean Sync-No-Surf which means you're likely on a Stinger. No fix possible for it with the Sagemcom. SmartRG works beautifully (I'm on a Stinger and haven't had any problems in that regard) |
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SmartRG SR808ac Asus RT-AC86 SmartRG SR505N
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to FreeThinker
said by FreeThinker:The biggest problem i am having with the Sagemcom is the loss of connectivity and random reboots. It just simply reboots from time to time; either manually done by the isp (bell or tsi) by remote firmware access or it is simply not working well. As for power stability; i have it plugged to an ups. Unless there is something wrong with the device itself, all that should go away using the PPPoE passthrough, I used to get that lots myself, been rock solid since putting another router on it. Current connection time is 20 days (there was a big outage on the first of the month) |
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to FreeThinker
said by FreeThinker:The biggest problem i am having with the Sagemcom is the loss of connectivity and random reboots. It just simply reboots from time to time; either manually done by the isp (bell or tsi) by remote firmware access or it is simply not working well. As for power stability; i have it plugged to an ups. Have you called TekSavvy or posted in the direct forum to check for any underlying line issues? I'd recommend replacing the Sagemcom with a SmartRG because it's a better piece of hardware and Bell will no longer have control over its firmware, but no piece of hardware can fix a problem elsewhere on the line. |
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SmartRG SR808ac Asus RT-AC86 SmartRG SR505N
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said by DigitalRain:I'd recommend replacing the Sagemcom with a SmartRG because it's a better piece of hardware and Bell will no longer have control over its firmware, but no piece of hardware can fix a problem elsewhere on the line. For what it's worth, when you use PPPoE passthrough, it disables all the TR69/remote access stuff. I went from 5-10 ports open that you could never close to the one or two I've forwarded by hand. But yes, if you're spending any money, just go with the SmartRG, it's not worth the headaches trying to find anything else. |
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to FreeThinker
said by FreeThinker:said by "i_pk_pjers_i" : The best VDSL modem is the SmartRG SR505n, hands down.
What other hardware (aside the sagecom ) have you compared the SmartRG SR505n and in what ways has it performed better ? That question makes no sense since as far as I know you can only use the Sagemcom (which everyone here says is shit and they are right), and the SmartRG. Even if I am wrong, the SmartRG is still one of the better VDSL modems and I'll tell you why. One thing where the SmartRG is better than the Sagemcom is the bridge mode isn't actually shitty, it uses an actual real bridge mode that doesn't get limited to 46 down. The Sagemcom firmware is shitty, locked down, and terrible to be quite honest. The SmartRG is perfectly stable, works great with terrible or amazing line stats and you very likely wouldn't notice a difference between the two whereas on the Sagemcom you would be more likely to notice a difference. The Sagemcom doesn't work on both the 7330 and Stinger as far as I know (this is what people here have said before, I'm guessing due to sync-no-surf but I haven't ever touched a Sagemcom so I'm not really sure), the SmartRG can. Plus the Sagemcom uses Bells firmware whereas the SmartRG does not. It's better than the Sagemcom in every single way and there's no reason to NOT get a SmartRG. The SmartRG is great. Ask anyone on these forums who knows what they are talking about and they will agree. |
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FreeThinkerdisgruntled crapsavvy customer join:2008-10-16 australia |
The only way someone can make sense in regards to the question is by backing it with some practical experience. Claiming something is better just due to "a hype", fame or empirical observation, does not make it actually better.
My experience with routers comes from opening then; making custom firmware and hardware mods, benchmark them and so on. From the tech side my question; makes all the sense.
However i do take your sagemcom/SmartRG comparison in account due to some very valid points made but have in mind that if comparing; chips used, flash memory and ram resources and opensource compatibility, possible hardware extensions, etc; the observation may change. I do not mind having to have put extra work on a piece of hardware to make it work the way i want and not the way the service wants as i am also used to compile everything from source code and make it work for the specifications of the service wanted/needed.
There are 2 types of hardware out there. a) the end user hardware (mainstream) b) toys for the tech boys (preferred)
I will look into the recommendation but quite honestly i prefer have headaches of mine rather than having to call tsi and realizing that they know less than me. (it has happened to many times/check my other topics).
For years i used an unsupported european adsl linux modem (no longer made) with TSI and my connection was rock solid and even better than with the official hardware. |
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SmartRG SR808ac Asus RT-AC86 SmartRG SR505N
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to FreeThinker
If you don't like the SmartRG or Sagemcom you're welcome to try any VDSL2 modem on the market. Before doing this though I would make sure you know exactly what type of SLAM you're on before hand, or it could be an large waste of time and money.
If you're on a 7330 SLAM, they actually conform to standards and yes you'll probably be able to get any VDSL2 modem working. But if you're on a Stinger... well, good luck, it's old hardware that didn't conform to standards, and often require custom firmware to connect. |
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to FreeThinker
said by FreeThinker:The only way someone can make sense in regards to the question is by backing it with some practical experience. Claiming something is better just due to "a hype", fame or empirical observation, does not make it actually better. If you're connected to a Stinger, there are two extant modems that will connect to it. There is sufficient evidence to show that SmartRG 505n is better than Sagemcom 2864, even without going into all the details you requested. There is no* third option. (*Unless you go digging through old discontinued modems, e.g., Cellpipe) Why: Stinger is not-quite-VDSL2. That means standard VDSL2 modems do not sync. Will this impact you? You have to find out what you're connected to. But the fact that your Sagemcom is acting funny is a hint you're on a Stinger, because Sagemcom modems tend to work well on 7330 DSLAMs. (See JMJimmy's post above) If you're on a 7330, you can ignore this post. (Except for the hypothetical situation where Bell moves you to a Stinger at some point in the future) |
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FreeThinkerdisgruntled crapsavvy customer join:2008-10-16 australia 1 edit |
to digiwth
I am able to confirm that i am on stinger and vdsl1 connection. There is also no 7330 SLAM in the area and there are only 3 different types of routers that will connect to it as mentioned by henry128 above.
I can also confirm that in order to connect to bell network these modems need specific custom firmware which i am told not to be Linux but some form of UNIX.
It also believed that the firmware contains some form of "token" (or OS fingerprint info) that will be recognized by bell as an authorized modem and this seems to the be the network restriction to other modems. If this factor is true; then a custom linux firmware should be able to spoof, emulate or create that same form of ID and succeed accessing the network. |
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FreeThinker 1 edit |
to henry128
Thanks henry120 for the good insight i agree with you. My reply to digiwth includes some more info in regards to your reply.
I am now looking for info about the bell network authentication method, compatibilities and options.
It is quite bad that they allow specific modems with very specific proprietary firmware. TSI should make the source code available; unless something needs to be hidden such as backdores.
It seems that these days number of router/modem proprietary firmware backdoors keeps increasing dramatically. |
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to FreeThinker
It requires custom firmware because (presumably) it needs to cope with the non-standardness of the Stinger. At least, don't assume malice when simple incompetence (i.e., installing pre-standard equipment) will suffice.
I doubt it is as simple as a "lock": - Bell has 7330 in many places, and those don't have modem restrictions, so they're not gaining anything by limiting the modem selection for only some of their users. - They have to go through extra expense to make modems work. - If it's as simple as a software lock, the Sagemcom wouldn't be having more problems with Stingers than 7330s.
The SmartRG 505n runs Linux (on mine, kernel 2.6.30). That doesn't mean it's easy to modify it, however. It would be nice to have the firmware source code (with the VDSL2 modem driver as a binary blob?). But that's probably an issue with the modem manufacturer, not the ISPs... |
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SmartRG SR808ac Asus RT-AC86 SmartRG SR505N
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to FreeThinker
It has less to do with "backdoors", and more to do with the fact Stingers are from the early days of VDSL, and don't follow ITU G.993.2 spec, and modifications are need to be made in order for it to function. There is no token, or fingerprint, or whatever you want to call it, nor is there a master list of "authorized" modems. If you were on a 7330, any VDSL2 modem would work, on DSLr there is multiple threads of people running off-shore modems like the Huawei HG610 with absolute zero problem. |
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FreeThinkerdisgruntled crapsavvy customer join:2008-10-16 australia
1 recommendation |
Backdoors are another topic in regards of general security and closed source vs opensource rather than the main issue here. said by digiwth:There is no token, or fingerprint, or whatever you want to call it, nor is there a master list of "authorized" modems. If that is the case; then it is good news and the information i just got from TSI tech is wrong. I agree that stinger slam seems to be the problem. I was also looking into some serious nice tech hardware from draytek and found that bell seemed to support some models as the following page shows: » kb.networksystemssolutio ··· l_CanadaAlthough draytek can be very expensive; it's hardware for some models is quite good. Vigor 2860 ADSL/VDSL Router » www.draytek.co.uk/produc ··· gor-2860 Supports VDSL, ADSL, 3G and Ethernet-based Broadband Supports either VDSL or ADSL, ideal if you have ADSL now and might get VDSL later VDSL compatible with BT Infinity%u2122 ('FTTC') 3-WAN Simultaneous : VDSL/ADSL, Ethernet and 3G(USB) Up to two USB 3G/4G modems can be used Wireless Management of compatible DrayTek APs - New! IPv6 Ready - See below for feature support High performance - up to 200Mb/s firewall throughput 802.11n Wireless LAN (Vigor2860n / Vigor2860n-plus) Dual-band (2.4/5Ghz) simultaneous wireless (2860n-Plus) DrayTek Firewall with huge flexibility 6-Port Gigabit Ethernet LAN Switch Temperature Monitoring (optional Thermometer) Wireless Guest Portal Multiple Private LAN Subnets SMS (Text Message) Alert VLANs (Port or 802.1q based) IGMP v3 MultiCast Includes SmartMonitor software Content Filtering (by keyword, data type or category) Ethernet and WiFi VLANs (common/distinct groups) LDAP Integration for VPN and user access QoS (Layer 2&3, 802.1p & TOS/DCSP) Up to 32 VPN tunnels for LAN-to-LAN or teleworkers VPN Trunk/Backup to remote sites SSL VPN - Tunnel or Proxy (5 users) USB Port for Printer, Logs or 3G Modem Optional VigorCare Available The question is if one of these will work with stinger slams and if yes; then this type of hardware is a nice choice. |
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FreeThinker |
to henry128
said by henry128:The SmartRG 505n runs Linux (on mine, kernel 2.6.30). That doesn't mean it's easy to modify it, however. It would be nice to have the firmware source code Would you be able to tell me if the SmartRG 505n has a serial or jtag port anywhere and if it is of easy/standard access ? If it does; it is half way to get open source in there |
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to FreeThinker
You have to very careful that any compatibility claims apply specifically to "VDSL2" on Stingers. Stingers work mostly ok with standard ADSL modems.
For example, the modem you pointed out is a VDSL(2) + ADSL modem. It is compatible with Bell "DSL" (presumably ADSL only). Note that Bell does not use VDSL. It uses only VDSL2. Even though the modem is VDSL2, this does not necessarily mean the VDSL2 portion will work on a Stinger. |
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henry128 |
to FreeThinker
There is a USB port outside, but no serial/JTAG. I have not looked inside, so I don't know if there could be one inside. |
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FreeThinkerdisgruntled crapsavvy customer join:2008-10-16 australia 1 edit |
said by henry128:Note that Bell does not use VDSL. It uses only VDSL2. Even though the modem is VDSL2 Are you sure about that ? TSI told me i am on vdsl1 as they don't have vdsl2 (at least for my location) |
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I'm quite sure I've never heard of Bell using VDSL... (with the caveat that it's much harder to prove non-existence of something than to prove the existence). Another hint is that the Sagemcom modem doesn't seem to support VDSL. (It's VDSL2 and ADSL2+/ADSL2/ADSL)
As far as I know, Bell uses ADSL for 6M, ADSL2+ for 7/1-15/1, and VDSL2 (standard or non-standard) for 15/10-50/10M. |
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henry128 |
said by henry128: Another hint is that the Sagemcom modem doesn't seem to support VDSL. (It's VDSL2 and ADSL2+/ADSL2/ADSL) I'm not confident of that statement: Someone posted Sagemcom f@st 2864 specs here, which does not list compatibility with VDSL. » www.tomshardware.com/ans ··· ter.htmlOn the other hand, the Sagemcom uses an IKF6850 chip. The product brief mentions VDSL once (possible error?) but only emphasizes VDSL2 and ADSL2+ variants. » www.ikanos.com/wp-conten ··· v112.pdf |
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SmartRG SR808ac Asus RT-AC86 SmartRG SR505N
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to FreeThinker
If you're unwilling to trust the boogie man hiding in their modified firmware to work with Stingers, you're pretty much left with two options, move to an area serviced by a 7330, or move to cable (which also has its own sets of modem requirements).
The fact of the matter is, no off the shelf "VDSL2" modem is likely to ever work with a Stinger without firmware modification, those modems are using a standard that the remote has no idea how to handle.
Also keep in mind, if you're not using a certified modem, you will also receive little to no support should you ever have troubles. |
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FreeThinkerdisgruntled crapsavvy customer join:2008-10-16 australia |
Looks like this backup your conclusion: » mailman.nanog.org/piperm ··· 343.htmlquote: Jean-Francois Mezei jfmezei_nanog at vaxination.ca Tue May 14 05:50:54 UTC 2013
Previous message: Dallas Peering Issues Next message: [NANOG-announce] 2013 Postel Scholarship Announcement Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
Does anyone know when Alcatel declared the Lucent Stinger product line "end of sales" ?
The Alcatel web page confirms it is discontinued but no date shown. > »support.alcatel-lucent.c ··· 00001080
All of the PDFs I have seen (thank to my buddy Mr Google) point to Lucent documents in early 2000s. (and few discuss Stingers deployed in remotes). None have the Alcatel-Lucent name, all have Lucent only.
In a regulatory Filing, Bell Canada says that it deployed 80% of them between 2006 and 2009, with the rest between 2009 and 2012.
I was under the impression that Alcatel end-of-lifed the Stinger product line not long after it purchased Lucent at end of 2006. So knowing when this actually happened would greatly help understanding this.
The Stinger DSLAMs deployed by Bell Canada are causing problems because they are not fully VDSL2 compatible and Bell Canada has identified only 1 modem (Sagemcom 2864) that is compatible ( a previous one Cellpipe has been end of lifed).
>From the time the end of sales has been reached, how many years could a carrier expect to see firmware/software fixes for their fleet of DSLAMs installed throughout cities ? I assume that while the end of life .PDF on the web site is restrictive, that Alcatel would still value carriers and provide them with "mature product" support ?
Are there precedents of other carriers who deployed Stingers and have since replaced them due to their being end of life and not so compatible with VDSL2 ?
Bell Canada stated that it has no plans to replace them, but this could be just regulatory talk.
Any background information would be appreciated.
From Alcatel: quote: Stinger® DSL Access Concentrator
This Product has been discontinued. Refer to the Alcatel-Lucent Maintenance Services End of Life Guideline for additional information.
The Alcatel-Lucent Stinger® DSL access concentrators provides one of the highest density DSLAMs available worldwide. Using a future-proof ATM architecture that is built for scalability and throughput, Stinger DSL Access Concentrators avoid the restrictions imposed by other proprietary designs. This robust, high-speed ATM fabric is combined with modular construction to simplify expansion and upgrade to newer xDSL technologies and software features, such as PNNI. Processing power and memory capacity can also be easily upgraded to reflect future state-of-the-art technology. Collapse
One other option is to try solve the problem with the dslam choice or knowing if bell has updated their firmware anywhere to allow compatibility with other types of hardware. (i doubt that) I wonder if the TSI info i got was also wrong in regards to the availability of 7330 in my area/location given other details seem to wrong too. For example; at first the tech guy had no clue if i was on vdsl1 or 2. Then he tells me i am v1 and the differences to v2. I do remember Teksavvy actually being tech savvy (years ago) but within the past year i either end up by telling them what is wrong/how things are or they are not aware of much more than reading a script. The guy that was on the phone with me a bit ago, had to go ask for for answers to my questions to someone else and google other info. This anyone can do, and in fact i will be open to a job opportunity with TSI if needed since i will do a much better job (without need to follow a script) than what i have been provided during 2014 and part of 2013. Anyway all feedback in regards to this topic and hardware specifications is more than welcome as we all can benefit from it and maybe find some more solutions. |
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For what it's worth, if you can find a VDSL2 modem with an Ikanos chipset, it should work with Stingers. I had success with a ZyXEL P870M-I1, but I moved and am now on a 7330 (for which I use a cheap, generic Huawei modem). |
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warza8 join:2010-03-08 North York, ON |
to FreeThinker
Looking my self for alternative. Does anyone knows if any of those two may work with TSI? 1. Planet Technology VC-231 (» www.dsl-warehouse.com/pr ··· 5db2126b) 2. DCE 5204V-BM (» www.dsl-warehouse.com/pr ··· 5db2126b) |
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to FreeThinker
I have practical experience - Sagemcom sucks, period. Its firmware & wireless was crap, sync-no-surf could not be fixed (TSI Andre even had Bhell giving me beta firmware to try out and multiple techs trying everything under the sun to resolve it). I finally switched to the SmartRG and have been extremely happy. While it doesn't have the processing power I'd like and the early firmware had an annoying IPv6 tunneling bug it's a very solid modem. Radio performance improved over the Sagemcom but only to about 1/3 to 1/2 of connection capacity - that is due to the building construction & high interference from 30+ wireless signals where I live - I suspect it'll perform better elsewhere. With the latest firmware it'll be a solid mid-range performer without any modification. If you want better performance it'll be rock solid as a bridge to a router with better hardware specs (if you really need more RAM/CPU speed). |
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