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onebadmofo
gat gnitsoP
Premium Member
join:2002-03-30
Pennsylvania

onebadmofo

Premium Member

[Green Tech] Solar Panels...anyone know about them?

I was just wondering how many panels and how big would they need to be for you to be able to function on the same level you comfortably do. Now I know everyone uses different amounts of electricity and summer months play a factor with ACs and all.

But what happens on cloudy days or at night? Or even in the winter months where the sun shine is sometimes non existent (it can sometimes be overcast in my area for weeks)? Is electric stored somehow for these occasions? Is it recommended in areas like that to stay with a power company but totally not use anything from them unless you'd need to?

Also what is the average amount of things you can have running at the same time with the use of solar panels? And does it require a total rewiring of your electrical to be efficient?
I tried searching and found some sites giving this information, but they're taking about Array size in Watts or kW, and Monthly output in kWh, and Watt hours on other things. And I don't know what any of that Kilowatt per hour equals out to in plain english. And yes I could research all that as well but it's easier for someone who knows about it to explain it to me like the idiot I am rather than taking a butt load of time trying to understand it on my own.

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
·Metronet

CylonRed

MVM

[Green Tech] Re: Solar Panels...anyone know about them?

You have to stay connected to the grid if there is a possibility of extended outages. I believe batteries can be used for short periods of time but take up space. Electric wiring for the breaker panel.needs to be done to.include the panels.

Not sure if you can still sell electric back to the grid if you have extra (effectively running the meter backward) and running a credit. I believe a new meter would also be needed to give electric back to.the grid.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to onebadmofo

to onebadmofo
You really need to talk to a knowledgeable consultant. They do not replace the grid but allow you to sell power back to the grid. The initial cost is around $80,000. The lifespan is about 20 years.

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

1 recommendation

LazMan to onebadmofo

Premium Member

to onebadmofo
There's a few ways to do it...

You can go totally solar, off grid - that means a drastic change in most people's lifestyle; things like AC cease to exist in your world... Usually this is for remote cabins/small homes - storage batteries or generators provide additional power at night/cloudy days.

You can do a grid-tie system, where you offset some of your power usage with solar - you're still on the grid, but had a small-medium sized solar setup, that supplements the power you use.... You use what you generate from the panels "first" and then draw from the grid to meet any excess demand. This reduces your power bill, sometimes substantially, if you do it right; but won't "make" you money...

Or, you can do a large scale solar system; you produce more than you consume (sometimes 2 or 3 times as much) - and sell the excess power back to the utility... It can cost 80-100k or more to install, and it depends on your local PoCo how long payback is - here in Ontario, the gov't was throwing insane, stupid, wastefully high money at solar, so payback on an 80 thousand dollar install was in the 5-7 year range; leaving 10-15 years of profit to follow... (most systems are expected to have a 20-ish year lifespan). You're making money, 8-10 months of the year, because the power company is buying the excess electricity from you, and adding it to the grid.

There's no one-size answer - it depends on what your goal is, what you want to spend, and what changes, if any, you want in your lifestyle... Also, what does your local utility allow, support, and what rates do they pay (if they allow backfeed at all).

Need a local consultant to help you on this one.
rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

1 edit

rody_44 to onebadmofo

Premium Member

to onebadmofo
My cousin has them. Its hooked to the grid and she gets a check from the electrical company every year. Its a 4 bedroom 3 bath house (big). It cost like 45 thousand to install but with federal and state rebates the cost came down to less than 25 thousand. Last time i asked she was netting about 300 a month payable once a year. They are happy. She had power during hurricane sandy when without a generator you were screwed.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish to onebadmofo

Premium Member

to onebadmofo
Best forum on the planet for solar is »forum.solar-electric.com ··· orum.php
Read through there FAQ's and beginner forum, all your questions will be answered there

SparkChaser
Premium Member
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA

SparkChaser to onebadmofo

Premium Member

to onebadmofo
I have a friend in Cochranvillle (about 40 mi south of you). He has a large array and just the electronics to connect to the grid. He's on vacation or I'd ask particulars. I think it was about 20K to 30K which supplies 50%-60% of electricity but it's only 2 people in a 3 bedroom ranch.

I think you'll have to talk to some experts. e.g. Array size in watts, they have different efficiencies so you can't just talk physical size.

My friends are on the ground and they're big (at least look like it to me )
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

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2 recommendations

ke4pym to onebadmofo

Premium Member

to onebadmofo
I installed a 5.62kw (DC) grid-tie array in November of 2012 and it was commissioned December of 2012. So far, I've produced 13MWh of energy.

Run a 1000 watt hair drier for 1 hour. That's a kilowatt hour.

With solar panels there are 2 main options to fly.

Grid-tie - this is where you are always connected to your power company. You pull power from them when you need it and you sell excess energy back to them when you're making extra.

Off-grid - this is where you are 100% reliant on your array to provide for the energy demands that you have. This will include a battery array so that you can continue to have electricity during the night hours. If your demands exceed that of your array and battery system, oh well. You'll be without for awhile. Size the system accordingly.

Most home based arrays you see are grid-tie. Those living out in the wilderness may elect to go with an off-grid system. But at a massive expense not only at getting the hardware but also maintaining it (batteries don't live forever).

In my array, it was tied to the system by a dual post 30A circuit breaker in my existing load center. Other than connecting the array to that circuit breaker, no wiring modifications to my home were made.

When I have full sun on the array, I can have a fridge, TV aquarium pumps and filters and a/c running and the meter is still turning backwards (though slowly). If I have the drier and a/c running, the meter is turning forwards.

The array sees peak power for about, on average 3 to 4 hours a day (give or take). Though it produces ample energy all day long. In the winter, those numbers drop substantially. I will see peak output for about 30 minutes to 2 hours depending on where we are in the solar cycle.

Obviously, when it is cloudy, the array is not generating as much energy. So, maybe the TV will get its energy from the array and everything else comes from the grid. The activity is seamless. I don't have to do anything day-to-day to select where the energy comes from.

Because of the cost, I did not elect to have a battery array installed (though I could have). My solar array isn't really big enough to charge the batteries and provide enough energy to power the house/sell back to the POCO.

I will be happy to answer any more questions about how the array works. For now, I will leave you with my thread from the experience:

»I've gone and done it ... solar install

pictures:

»imgur.com/a/Qu1w2
ke4pym

ke4pym to CylonRed

Premium Member

to CylonRed
said by CylonRed:

You have to stay connected to the grid if there is a possibility of extended outages.

In most residential instances, when there is a power outage, the array will shut down. It will not provide emergency power.

This is to prevent the array from sending energy back to the grid and possibility electrocuting someone.
ke4pym

1 edit

ke4pym to DKS

Premium Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

They do not replace the grid but allow you to sell power back to the grid. The initial cost is around $80,000. The lifespan is about 20 years.

False, on all three counts. They -can- replace the grid.

An off-grid, battery backed system can start pretty cheap. $80k will get you an enormous array now. If your energy needs are small, you can get away with a $35-40k investment.

The panels today are expected to produce usable amounts of energy well into the 30-35 year range. My panels are warranted for at least 80% of their rated output for 25 years.
ke4pym

ke4pym to rody_44

Premium Member

to rody_44
said by rody_44:

She had power during hurricane sandy when without a generator you were screwed.

Unless she had some special provision (such as grid disconnects/battery array) to her install, no she didn't. Grid-tie arrays must shut themselves off if the utility power fails.

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

CylonRed to ke4pym

MVM

to ke4pym
Extended outages such as heavy clouds/rain/darkness, not a blackout..
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

ke4pym

Premium Member

said by CylonRed:

Extended outages such as heavy clouds/rain/darkness, not a blackout..

Outage is not a good word to use here. The only thing that would make the array go offline while utility power is present is darkness.

The array will still produce energy in heavy clouds and rain. Even with a 4" layer of snow on my array (which didn't last long thank you solar heat) it was still making energy.

Not a lot of energy mind you. But enough to be dangerous and run say, the tv.
ke4pym

ke4pym to LazMan

Premium Member

to LazMan
said by LazMan:

It can cost 80-100k or more to install

Prices have fallen through the floor. It's about $3/watt now to install. In 2012, I paid almost double that (before subsidies).

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine to LazMan

Member

to LazMan
said by LazMan:

Or, you can do a large scale solar system; you produce more than you consume (sometimes 2 or 3 times as much) - and sell the excess power back to the utility... It can cost 80-100k or more to install, and it depends on your local PoCo how long payback is - here in Ontario, the gov't was throwing insane, stupid, wastefully high money at solar, so payback on an 80 thousand dollar install was in the 5-7 year range; leaving 10-15 years of profit to follow... (most systems are expected to have a 20-ish year lifespan). You're making money, 8-10 months of the year, because the power company is buying the excess electricity from you, and adding it to the grid.

That's not possible in some areas. In NJ you cannot size your system more than your average annual usage and they check your last year's worth of electric bills.

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

LazMan

Premium Member

said by fifty nine:

That's not possible in some areas. In NJ you cannot size your system more than your average annual usage and they check your last year's worth of electric bills.

Fortunately, I covered that very thing in the next paragraph of my original post...
said by LazMan:

Also, what does your local utility allow, support, and what rates do they pay (if they allow backfeed at all).

Like I said - a local consultant will know the in's and out's better than "we" do - just because it varies from location to location...
LazMan

LazMan to ke4pym

Premium Member

to ke4pym
said by ke4pym:

said by LazMan:

It can cost 80-100k or more to install

Prices have fallen through the floor. It's about $3/watt now to install. In 2012, I paid almost double that (before subsidies).

Good to know - I do a few small-scale, off-grid jobs every now and then (usually remote radio repeaters, that use prime-power generators for electricity - we're adding small solar arrays to charge the battery banks and reduce generator run-times) - but not a lot of them, and it's a pretty specialized application...

I haven't followed the large scale prices much at all lately.

Mike
Mod
join:2000-09-17
Pittsburgh, PA
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

Mike to onebadmofo

Mod

to onebadmofo
Solar is still a toy for the rich.

The most reasonable thing to do if you want to save energy is to switch all your lightbulbs to LED.

»www.amazon.com/gp/produc ··· F8&psc=1

The more involved thing is to make sure your home has decent insulation.
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

ke4pym

Premium Member

said by Mike:

The most reasonable thing to do if you want to save energy is to switch all your lightbulbs to LED.

I don't understand this one. It's not that I don't disagree with the energy saving prospects. But are you guys running the full sunlight experience in your home with lighting after dark?

I typically have, at most, 2 lights (for general lighting) on in my house at any given time after sundown.

Also, solar is no longer in the exclusive domain of the rich. I am well off. But I am by no means rich. Live in a modest home and it was a no-brainer for me. With as much as solar prices have fallen and with the subsidies still going on, it is very possible to swing a modest array without much effort.

onebadmofo
gat gnitsoP
Premium Member
join:2002-03-30
Pennsylvania

onebadmofo to Mike

Premium Member

to Mike
said by Mike:

Solar is still a toy for the rich.

The most reasonable thing to do if you want to save energy is to switch all your lightbulbs to LED.

»www.amazon.com/gp/produc ··· F8&psc=1

The more involved thing is to make sure your home has decent insulation.

Actually this is a thought for the place I work for. They're looking to save money even if it has to spent in the forefront first.

I should have added all these details but I rushed in getting the post out there. (sorry for that guys)

We were having a meeting about improving our server room and there was talk about getting some new UPSs for our server room (big ones). Battery replacement every 2 to 3 years. Electric to charge them. Not to mention this bigger ones aren't cheap and don't have a small footprint.

And then a mention towards a rooftop generator for backup power for the servers. I guess it is better than a UPS but take refueling it and then theres the carbon footprint.

Then I had the silly thought of solar power as a backup source for powering those devices. Initial cost is probably big (but I don't know how much would be needed of that type of powering) It's clean, it's coming from a free, renewable resource. And I guess it's a tax write off of some kind. (i dunno, I didn't research it it just came to mind at the meeting)

... so you guys think solar is possible for that type of usage? Or would servers draw too much energy for solar to keep up?
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

ke4pym

Premium Member

said by onebadmofo:

so you guys think solar is possible for that type of usage? Or would servers draw too much energy for solar to keep up?

As an emergency backup? No. Solar shouldn't be considered an emergency backup for a business. Ever.

To supplement your current energy systems? Sure.

You still have to have a UPS system to power the gear while the generators spin up. Solar won't be much help at night for that. But it could charge your UPS battery array.

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
·Metronet

CylonRed to onebadmofo

MVM

to onebadmofo
Depending on how many servers I doubt a rooftop generator would be big enough. More likely to need a standalone diesel/natural gas generator, a fairly large one. As for the possibility of high costs.... what is the cost to losing ther data? I would bet more than the cost of a good diesel/nat gas generator.

Jack in VA
Premium Member
join:2014-07-07
North, VA

Jack in VA to ke4pym

Premium Member

to ke4pym
said by ke4pym:

I installed a 5.62kw (DC) grid-tie array in November of 2012 and it was commissioned December of 2012. So far, I've produced 13MWh of energy.

13MWh = 13000 KWh x 0.10/KWh = $1300 (amount produced at $0.10 per KWh)

13000 kwh / 22 months = 591/kWh/mo (electricity produced per month for 22 months)

1300 / 22 months = 59/mo (Value of electricity per month for 22 months)

This would not even be 1/2 of my my usage which is exactly what my previous 2 estimates from solar companies indicated. I would have still had to pay the loan for the equipment and installation.

Am I looking at this wrong?

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to ke4pym

to ke4pym
said by ke4pym:

said by DKS:

They do not replace the grid but allow you to sell power back to the grid. The initial cost is around $80,000. The lifespan is about 20 years.

False, on all three counts. They -can- replace the grid.

You tell that to the many folks who have gone to solar up here in Ontario. They would be laughing at you. Sorry, it's just not true. It a) doesn't replace the grid; b) the cost is around $80,000 and c) the lifespan is about 20 years.

Jack in VA
Premium Member
join:2014-07-07
North, VA

Jack in VA

Premium Member

said by DKS:

said by ke4pym:

said by DKS:

They do not replace the grid but allow you to sell power back to the grid. The initial cost is around $80,000. The lifespan is about 20 years.

False, on all three counts. They -can- replace the grid.

You tell that to the many folks who have gone to solar up here in Ontario. They would be laughing at you. Sorry, it's just not true. It a) doesn't replace the grid; b) the cost is around $80,000 and c) the lifespan is about 20 years.

It would take one hell of a system to replace my grid. My last was 1150 KWh and that was a low month because of mild temps. So just how much would a +/- 2000 KWh/mo system cost that would totally free me from the grid?
KirkyInCT
join:2008-11-04
Higganum, CT

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KirkyInCT to onebadmofo

Member

to onebadmofo
Going to do an install in a few weeks.

We are on grid still. Main reason is I don't want to mess with batteries and I have a genset for any outage.

We are not replacing our usage, we are supplementing it. Putting in a 5K system (50%), which is about 20 panels I think, we'll squeak a few more in if possible.

Before discounts, price would be $18K. After discounts, rebates and tax credits, we're looking at about $7K. 25 year warranty on parts, 12 year warranty on labor.

The meter could run backwards (during the summer probably), CL&P will apply credits to our account for anything we don't use when the system is generating more than we need. End of fiscal year, they true up and pay us pennies on the dollar for credits we don't use.

If you want an off grid system, you're looking at about double the above prices for a similar system. Plus you get to replace those expensive batteries at pretty frequent/regular intervals. Personally, I don't think an off-grid system is worth while at this point, at least not if on grid is an option.

When we ran the numbers, we're basically saving about 1/2 our monthly electricity costs with the above system. We should recoup that $7K investment before year 5, so the other 20+ years it should be a real savings in our pocket. Without the discounts, rebates and tax credits, break even is pretty far down the road.
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

ke4pym to DKS

Premium Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

said by ke4pym:

said by DKS:

They do not replace the grid but allow you to sell power back to the grid. The initial cost is around $80,000. The lifespan is about 20 years.

False, on all three counts. They -can- replace the grid.

You tell that to the many folks who have gone to solar up here in Ontario. They would be laughing at you. Sorry, it's just not true. It a) doesn't replace the grid; b) the cost is around $80,000 and c) the lifespan is about 20 years.

Either you guys are getting ripped or you have old data. $80k systems here in the states weren't uncommon back in 2006.

But I will concede that at higher latitudes, you will need more panels to off-set the loss of sun that we enjoy further south.

Modern solar arrays aren't old enough yet to tell just how long they will last. Panels from respectable manufacturers come with a minimum of 25 years of warranty.
ke4pym

ke4pym to Jack in VA

Premium Member

to Jack in VA
said by Jack in VA:

It would take one hell of a system to replace my grid. My last was 1150 KWh and that was a low month because of mild temps. So just how much would a +/- 2000 KWh/mo system cost that would totally free me from the grid?

As old as you are, what does it matter? You won't get your money back before you croak. ;*) I say that as nicely as I can.

That said, I have no real way to quote you an off grid system. Figure about $3/watt.

We have similar usage patterns. I think yours is a tad higher than mine but not by much. In July, I produced 715kWh on my 5.62kw array. That's going to go south real fast as we set into winter.

Just running numbers in the back of my head, I would suspect I could do away with the POCO if I had a 16-20kw array with the requisite batteries. At $3/watt installed for the array - $48 - 60k. No clue what the batteries and charge controller would run. But you'd also have to do the math on what your over-night energy requirements are. Then factor in winter and cloudy days to have enough coverage. More math than I am mentally capable of.

I have a coworker who's sister lives in WVA on a mountain side and they get by on an 8kw system. But they gave up a lot of things we take for granted. Like a/c and tons of electronics and aquariums and electric heat and such.
ke4pym

ke4pym to KirkyInCT

Premium Member

to KirkyInCT
said by KirkyInCT:

Main reason is I don't want to mess with batteries and I have a genset for any outage.

Not going to get into the specifics of how you may or may not have your genset hooked up.

But if there's any chance your solar array could perceive energy coming from your genset as utility power, you might want to throw 1 or more of the disconnect switches to the array.

The inverters are pretty awesome at syncing their sine wave to utility. That said, generators are pretty dirty when it comes to a clean sine wave and you probably wouldn't want to blow up your inverter(s) from that if you back feed your genset into the house.

Jus'sayin'
KirkyInCT
join:2008-11-04
Higganum, CT

2 edits

KirkyInCT

Member

I've asked, and I was expecting to pay more for additional equipment. I was assured that it wouldn't be a problem. I will make sure it's in the contract though and will probably e shutting down the array before I power up the genset as well. I need to understand how it's hooked in better, but everything seems to points to it really just backfeeds the panel much the same way people backfeed a generator. The inverter is supposed to detect grid power and backfeed or not.

I do have a separate whole house manual transfer switch. However if it backfeeds at the panel and not at the meter (which is how I think it works), that doesn't matter. I assume shutting off the breaker backfeeding the panel will prevent possibility for damage.