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[Green Tech] GE GeoSpring Hybrid water heaterJust saw this on TV: » www.geappliances.com/hea ··· -heater/It uses heat from the ambient air to heat the water and the . I saw the video and explains a bit but does not get into details about the heat transfer part. I wonder if this is most useful if the water coming into the heater is significantly colder than ambient air. Where I live (in the tropics) the water gets into the heater at about ambient temperature or only a few degrees below so I am not sure this type of heater will have much energy savings at all. Anyone familiar with this? |
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[Green Tech] Re: GE GeoSpring Hybrid water heaterits a heat pump, the warmer the ambient temperature is, the better it will work.
it will also benefit you as the room it is in will be cooler
con is it make noise |
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The warmer the incoming water the less energy is needed to heat it up, but as far as performance the end result needs to be water at 120-140F so from an efficiency standpoint does not make a difference. As LittleBill  pointed out the higher the ambient air temperature the better it works. Since it is a heat pump if you locate it in a conditioned space it will help cool as it removes heat and transfers it to the water. You may want to investigation using roof panels or bath heater. These capture heat directly and may end up being cheaper, cost less to run and longer lived. /tom |
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Well, here water heaters are often located inside a closet outside the house, so no benefit from the cooling effect. Mine is outside. Solar water heaters are common here and have been for decades. Line heaters are becoming popular and many people who can't afford these alternative use a shower heater or no heater at all.
My particular heater is an old tank heater that I run on a timer because the only time I need hot water is for bathing and I live alone.
My question was mostly out of curiosity about the technology, not that I am considering getting one. |
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Forgot to comment on the most important part. So then they actually make sense in the tropics. Good to know. |
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 nunyaLXI 483
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO ·Charter
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nunya
MVM
2014-Sep-27 11:50 am
A year round warm climate is one of the few places these make sense. It would be even better if you were able to reap the benefits of the cooling effect.
Of course, solar hot water is probably one of the most cost effective and efficient uses of solar energy - and probably cheaper up front than a heatpump WH. Solar operating costs would beat the pants off the HPWH in your neck of the woods. |
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 nightdesignsGone missing, back soon
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I wonder if they have a version that can be run in reverse?  During the summer months here in AZ, the incoming water temp is well over 100 degrees. I just want a cold shower! |
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ncbill
Premium Member
join:2007-01-23
Winston Salem, NC |
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expensive, the heat pump part on the original made-in-china model wasn't very reliable (now made here IIRC)
why not just put a timer on the water heater so hot water is available when you want it? |
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I installed a Geosprings Heat pump water heater in Jan. of this year. I did it because there was about $500 in rebates or I probably wouldn't have. I checked into soalr water heaters and the average around here was $6500 installed with 55% tax rebates. I didn't want to spend that much up front.
End result is I'm saving around $15 a month on hot water or that's as near as I can figure. My water heater is installed in the attic which is common where I live and the WH helps cool the attic a little during the summer. |
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scooper
join:2000-07-11
Kansas City, KS  ·Google Fiber
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print screen - you mentioned that your current WH is in the double digits for age - do you know if it has been maintained by fluching the crap out of the bottom at all ? If no - you may want to consider a new WH before it starts leaking. The newest conventional electrics all seem to come with 2+ inches of solid foam insulation, so standby losses on these are very minimal. Would the heat pump be worth it - good question. Some of the Heat pump water heaters have a mode where it will use the heatpump exclusively - that would certainly save energy - but it has relatively slow recovery time (about half the resistance elements). Honestly - I'd probably just go with a conventional resistance heater and save the money for operation / towards a replacement. |
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Boooost to nunya
Anon
2014-Sep-28 7:44 am
to nunya
said by nunya:Of course, solar hot water is probably one of the most cost effective and efficient uses of solar energy - and probably cheaper up front than a heatpump WH. Solar operating costs would beat the pants off the HPWH in your neck of the woods. Hot water is the least expensive of all my utilities. We use a lot of hot water, but my bill (gas bill in the summer with no other gas use) is only $25. OK, in the winter it would cost more to heat up the water, but still it's the cheapest of all my utilities. Getting a more efficient water heater would hardly save me anything. |
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nunyaLXI 483
MVM
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nunya
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2014-Sep-28 11:56 am
That's great, but my comment was specifically for the OP. I agree that the HPWH and tankless WH are a gimmick for most people. You'll never recover the extra upfront expenses. No matter how hard I tried to make the case for tankless, the numbers just didn't add up. Solar hot water in a tropical climate just makes sense. And the add on kits for existing electric tanks aren't anywhere near in cost to what another commenter posted. I think $6,500  , which is total and complete ripoff (unless they are using gold pipe). I believe a small kit can be had for less than $500. |
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Re: [Green Tech] GE GeoSpring Hybrid water heaterAs I said in a prior post, I have a regular tank heater on a timer which works for my needs pretty well. I never said double-digit age but yes, I estimate it is from 2000. I will keep using it for as long as it works which maybe for the next week or maybe for a few more years... who knows at this moment. When the time comes I will decide which way I will go. Perhaps just another tank heater.... who knows. Solar is one alternatives.
Speaking age and flushing, I have done it many times but it has been quite some time since I last did it, so there I went to do it and it is draining as I type this. The water is coming out clean. |
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to nunya
Re: [Green Tech] Re: GE GeoSpring Hybrid water heaterThis is basically what I was being quote for and I got several estimates. » www.build.com/rheem-rs80 ··· odpy0AZw |
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to ncbill
said by ncbill:why not just put a timer on the water heater so hot water is available when you want it? A timer may use more energy than what it saves. The standby losses are very small. |
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Re: [Green Tech] GE GeoSpring Hybrid water heatersaid by printscreen:Speaking age and flushing, I have done it many times but it has been quite some time since I last did it, so there I went to do it and it is draining as I type this. The water is coming out clean. Flushing is nice but the most important maintenance item is to check and replace the anode rod(s) before they are used up. Once that happens corrosion begins to attack the steel tank. /tom |
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to cowboyro
Re: [Green Tech] Re: GE GeoSpring Hybrid water heatersaid by cowboyro:A timer may use more energy than what it saves. The standby losses are very small. I had this discussion on another topic 4 years ago. I still fail to see how using energy to keep water hot that is not needed for 23 hours in a day can use less energy than setting a timer to turn on the heater for 45 minutes a day. Of course, that is my particular case, living alone. |
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said by printscreen: I still fail to see how using energy to keep water hot that is not needed for 23 hours in a day can use less energy than setting a timer to turn on the heater for 45 minutes a day. You need to evaluate the heat loss through the insulation vs the amount of energy used to run the timer. When we built our house wired up the outside lights through a photocell and timer. So they would only be on from dusk to say 1AM-ish. With the advent of CFL lighting I did away with the timer. The 4-watts to run the timer 24/7 was more then we saved turning off the light. The same trade-off applies to water heaters. Modern electric heaters have 2 or 3" of foam insulation so standby losses are very low. You are in a warm climate which also reduces standby losses It may make sense in your case or may not. /tom |
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said by printscreen:said by cowboyro:A timer may use more energy than what it saves. The standby losses are very small. I still fail to see how using energy to keep water hot that is not needed for 23 hours in a day can use less energy than setting a timer to turn on the heater for 45 minutes a day. The insulation is very efficient, making the temperature of the tank decrease very slowly. Since ultimately savings in electricity equal the reduction in heat losses, you would only save something if allowing the tank to cool significantly more - only the cooling rate is so low that the DIFFERENCE between losses while keeping at "set" temperature and letting it cool slightly is insignificant. Just for hahas, my $200 electric heater uses 0.7kWh/day to compensate for standby losses with water at 140F and ambient at 60F. Allowing it to cool by 20% of the differential would only save roughly 1/2 of the 20% of 0.7kWh -> so 70Wh. A timer uses ~100Wh/day and the tank wouldn't cool that much anyway by the time it's used next time (mine only starts twice a day to maintain the temperature with no use). |
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to tschmidt
said by tschmidt:You need to evaluate the heat loss through the insulation vs the amount of energy used to run the timer. Well, it is a digital timer and the amount of energy it uses must be negligible. The heater is on the normally open side of the timer. It is similar to the one on the link but on a plastic enclosure. The timer only uses some energy when the contactor (is this is the correct name for this) is on. » www.homedepot.com/p/GE-7 ··· 02788241I have never done any kind of evaluation on heat loss but I should say that after 24 hours the water inside the tank is only a few degrees above ambient temperature. I have seen several times people saying that modern heaters have 2-3 inch foam insulation. This heater probably has about one inch of insulation. It is an *old* modern heater.  The anode rod is likely gone after all these years. I know for a fact that is has not been replaced. Who knows if the dip tube is also gone although I have never found particles clogging faucets or draining from the bottom of the tank. The water is not particularly bad here. Would need to disconnect the supply and outlet pipes to look inside. Some day I will. |
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said by printscreen:after 24 hours the water inside the tank is only a few degrees above ambient temperature. Your water heater probably not only has only an inch of insulation but it is fiberglass rather then foam. In that case then turning off power will save considerable energy. Unfortunately the timer spec does not list power consumption, but since your heater is so poorly insulated it is a moot point. /tom |
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It's foam insulation. |
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said by printscreen:I should say that after 24 hours the water inside the tank is only a few degrees above ambient temperature. Only 2 things could cause that: 1 - no insulation 2 - a leaky hot water faucet If you kept water at the lowest 120F setting and your ambient was 80F - and your water ended up at -say- 90F in 24h, you'd have to lose 10,000BTU of heat or 415BTU/h AVERAGE; I won't go into numbers, but the tank would actually feel hot to the touch. |
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ncbill
Premium Member
join:2007-01-23
Winston Salem, NC |
to cowboyro
Color me skeptical. Shoot, I'd save far more energy using a timer to power off my Tivo (& it only uses around 15 watts operating) during the day vs. the power the timer would use. But we're talking about an electric water heater, which requires its own 240VAC circuit - one of the top power consumers in the home. said by cowboyro:A timer may use more energy than what it saves. The standby losses are very small. |
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 tobyTroy Mcclure
join:2001-11-13
Seattle, WA
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Re: [Green Tech] GE GeoSpring Hybrid water heatersaid by printscreen:It uses heat from the ambient air to heat the water It is more efficient to run the GeoSpring water heater in heat pump mode all the way down to 32 Deg F, anything below that temperature it uses the regular heating elements. If you live in PR, it would be very efficient to run, but using a roof mounted water heater would be a lot more efficient. They are very popular in Hawaii where electricity is expensive. » www.hawaiienergy.com/sol ··· esources , they show a different timer in the second video. In Hawaii water is pumped to the roof, in colder climates a refrigerant is used to transfer the heat. Where I live it would've taken me decades to make up the cost of getting a solar heater. Having a timer to enable/disable a regular electric water heater? I read that on here all the time, that'd save 50 cents per year, if that. More energy would be wasted on powering the timer. The same people talk about disabling wifi at night so it doesn't harm their health. |
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nunyaLXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO |
nunya
MVM
2014-Sep-29 10:11 pm
WH timers are kind of a joke. They don't make much sense. |
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to cowboyro
Re: [Green Tech] Re: GE GeoSpring Hybrid water heatersaid by cowboyro:Only 2 things could cause that:
1 - no insulation
2 - a leaky hot water faucet None of the above. Outside of heater does not feel warm to the touch. Heat likely is being lost through pipes. They are not insulated although the exposed sections are short. The hot water pipe goes into the concrete wall of the house after about three feet at most. The cold side is just as long and goes to the soil, not very deep, just a couple of inches. Also the TP valve is not insulated. I don't care much about those loses because the heater will run only for as long as it is set in the timer. It is a 30 gallon tank and 120 V. Then again, solar is the best option here although a bit pricey. When the time comes to replace this heater solar will be an option to consider. |
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I should add that I have a timer for automation purposes, not energy savings. It is there so that I don't have to bother turning on and off when I need it. The timer takes care of that. I also said that in the topic four yearas ago when the same debate flared up. |
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to toby
Re: [Green Tech] GE GeoSpring Hybrid water heatersaid by toby:in Hawaii where electricity is expensive. »www.hawaiienergy.com/sol ··· esources , they show a different timer in the second video.
In Hawaii water is pumped to the roof, in colder climates a refrigerant is used to transfer the heat. Where I live it would've taken me decades to make up the cost of getting a solar heater. We have a similar situation here except that our electricity is not as expensive as yours. Solar heaters here do not use pumps. The storage tank is up in the roof (we have poured concrete slab roofs here, no issue with the extra load) and placed above the solar panels. The water flows through the system purely by convection with no external mechanical work. Some use a pressurized water system that makes no direct contact with the water in the tank. An internal coil with the superheated pressurized water acts like a heating element in a regular tank heater. The pressurized water also flows by convection alone. |
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This is what a typical solar water heater looks like here. 
The second one is the pressurized water variety. 
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During the summer months here in AZ, the incoming water temp is well over 100 degrees. I just want a cold shower!
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, which is total and complete ripoff (unless they are using gold pipe).
