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NYC33
@66.249.83.x

NYC33

Anon

Twc picture quality is beyond terribly in NYC

You can't even watch a MLB playoffs game without all the blurry, and macroblocking image. Tbs, sci-fi, and TLC in the same QAM, just ridiculous 1080i channels in the same QAM.

Suit Up
join:2003-07-21
Los Angeles, CA

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In LA, we've got USA, TNT, and TBS all on the same one. Three 720p channels or three 1080i channels on the same QAM is pretty standard practice for cable companies everywhere. And yes, it looks terrible whenever there is fast movement.
KrLouKy
join:2010-09-18
Louisville, KY

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I had a bad problem with this here in Louisville during the late spring and early summer months. Problem finally went away for awhile; unfortunately now it's back on certain channels. Mostly seems to be interference; a TWC tech told me they thought they had the problem resolved in late summer -- seems some new equipment and it's placement in regards to other servers and boards was causing the issues. Now it's back again... I feel your pain.

NYC33
@66.249.83.x

NYC33

Anon

Just an update, I complained about the problem to twc. Then I got a call from advance tech, I schooled this dude over the phone why channels look like crap. I explained to to him about the 3/1 why it is a terrible idea especially for sports channels.

After I finished my conversation, the advance tech guy simple said oh we will send a technician to my home. Why I need tech at home when I don't have a signal problem, but a video problem coming from twc feed. Now they made an appointment for tomorrow, but I will cancel it, and disconnect the video service. I will only keep the Internet. It's hard to discuss with these dinosaurs, when most people accept the inferior service.

Packeteers
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join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
Asus RT-AC3100
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Packeteers

Premium Member

said by NYC33 :

Now they made an appointment for tomorrow, but I will cancel it, and disconnect the video service.

unless you were looking for any excuse to cut the cord, cancelling that premise visit would be foolish. nyc has an excellent twc distribution most of which was upgraded the past 2 years, so it's most likely the connectivity problem is in or around your building, not a systemic issue. since your tuner is probably twc provided equipment, no matter where the fault lies they won't charge you for the repair. my guess is it's nothing more than a loose coax connection, water damage or a frayed wire somewhere.

to bitch about a vendor and not even give them a chance to make good on it is simple hubris.

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said by Packeteers:

said by NYC33 :

Now they made an appointment for tomorrow, but I will cancel it, and disconnect the video service.

unless you were looking for any excuse to cut the cord, cancelling that premise visit would be foolish. nyc has an excellent twc distribution most of which was upgraded the past 2 years, so it's most likely the connectivity problem is in or around your building, not a systemic issue. since your tuner is probably twc provided equipment, no matter where the fault lies they won't charge you for the repair. my guess is it's nothing more than a loose coax connection, water damage or a frayed wire somewhere.

I'm fairly certain it's not a signal problem. It's an over-compression problem due to having 3 HD MPEG-2 streams on one QAM. While watching the games, I'll see spikes up to 12.5 Mbps, but it's far more common for it to be around 10 and I've even seen it drop down to 6 Mbps. That's not enough bandwidth for fast panning shots like you'll see in sports (this camera movement doesn't happen as much in a normal drama or sitcom type show, which is why people only tend to complain about the over-compression on sports channels). And as I said, it's a problem systematic across pretty much all cable providers.

Just to show I'm not BSing, here's a screen shot I took of my HDHomeRun's status page showing the signal levels and bandwidth used (streaming rate):


Packeteers
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join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
Asus RT-AC3100
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Packeteers

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said by Suit Up:

That's not enough bandwidth for fast panning shots

I agree 1mb/s is barely enough for 720p, but you are in a different market. most got maxx here already, so i doubt it's a bandwidth congestion issue. i'm just posting to encourage the OP to give TWC a chance to make it right before cancelling because i know my area gets above average service.

NYC33
@66.249.83.x

NYC33

Anon

twcHD.xlsx.zip
251,371 bytes
I don't have an Internet issue, but an issue with the feed these people are sending in a 3/1 QAM. It is arrogant when you give that treatment to every cable channel regardless if it's sports, or a premium like HBO. For years I was preaching about this issue. I gave them a pass due to lack of bandwidth, then they killed all the
analog channels, and started using Switch digital on top of it. What happened? Nothing

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said by Packeteers:

but you are in a different market. most got maxx here already, so i doubt it's a bandwidth congestion issue.

Well, I do have Maxx already... but that really has nothing to do with this. Maxx is for faster internet and has no effect on the amount of data a single QAM channel can carry (it merely uses more QAM channels to provide more internet speed). The problem is a single QAM channel carrying television signals has a limited amount of bandwidth (38.78 Mbit/s according to wikipedia) and 3 HD MPEG-2 streams are being crammed into it to maximize the number of HD channels that can be carried on the entire system. Being digital-only in my area now, I'd like to think there's some more free space so that they no longer have to do that. If they did 2 HD per QAM, that would be fine (they could even tack on a SD or two and it would still be better) or if they switched to MPEG-4 they could lower the bandwidth needed for each HD channel and probably fit 4 on one QAM and still have it look better.
46436203 (banned)
join:2013-01-03

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So why exactly does Time Warner continue to use Switched Digital Video if it isn't freeing them up any bandwidth?

They still compress the shit out of everything as if they aren't even using SDV.

Although Verizon FiOS is compressing their channels more they still have higher bitrates than Time Warner and Verizon has the same amount or more HD channels than most of Time Warner's markets.

Verizon FiOS doesn't use SDV at all yet somehow they have the same amount or even more bandwidth free than Time Warner does. I don't get it. It seems like Switched Digital Video is accomplishing nothing (except aggravation with the complications it introduces with tuning adapters and 'channel not available' messages).

The only channels I've seen on Time Warner with a bitrate higher than 12 Mbps are On Demand channels.

NYC33
@66.249.83.x

NYC33

Anon

As shown in the sheet that I attached most of the SDV QAM are empty. They had many crap channels like HUB on SDV then they moved it to a QAM. As far as the MLB extra inning or NBA pass. They are passing those channels in MPG-4, but are compressed like hell. Seems they are putting 8 or 9 MPG-4 channels in one QAM.

Even once they switch to MPG-4 they will conduct the same strategy they are using now, jam as many HD feeds in one QAM.
omghi2u
join:2001-02-05
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said by 46436203:

Verizon FiOS doesn't use SDV at all yet somehow they have the same amount or even more bandwidth free than Time Warner does. I don't get it.

Fiber and Cable are two totally different topologies/technologies.

Tonice2007
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join:2005-12-20
Brooklyn, NY

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said by omghi2u:

said by 46436203:

Verizon FiOS doesn't use SDV at all yet somehow they have the same amount or even more bandwidth free than Time Warner does. I don't get it.

Fiber/IPTV and Cable/SDV are two totally different topologies/technologies.

What your saying is true, but Verizon FiOS uses Cable technology for their TV service unlike other Fiber ISPs. The issue here is that the bandwidth that is on the "coax" is only used for the TV service and not the internet, which on the "fiber" portion.
omghi2u
join:2001-02-05
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omghi2u

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You're right. FIOS has three different wavelengths on the fiber...and cable tv delivered via qam has its own not to be shared with voice/internet.
46436203 (banned)
join:2013-01-03

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said by omghi2u:

said by 46436203:

Verizon FiOS doesn't use SDV at all yet somehow they have the same amount or even more bandwidth free than Time Warner does. I don't get it.

Fiber and Cable are two totally different topologies/technologies.

No they're not. Time Warner and Verizon both used standard cable QAM-based systems for their TV service so they should have identical bandwidth.

Unlike a provider like Google Fiber which uses IPTV so they should have nearly unlimited bandwidth available to them - which is why Google always passes through the feeds they receive from the networks completely untouched for their Fiber TV service. Unlimited bandwidth and the fact that all of their boxes out in the field support MPEG-4 allows Google to do this.

Tonice2007
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Brooklyn, NY

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Tonice2007

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said by 46436203:

said by omghi2u:

said by 46436203:

Verizon FiOS doesn't use SDV at all yet somehow they have the same amount or even more bandwidth free than Time Warner does. I don't get it.

Fiber and Cable are two totally different topologies/technologies.

No they're not. Time Warner and Verizon both used standard cable QAM-based systems for their TV service so they should have identical bandwidth.

Unlike a provider like Google Fiber which uses IPTV so they should have nearly unlimited bandwidth available to them - which is why Google always passes through the feeds they receive from the networks completely untouched for their Fiber TV service. Unlimited bandwidth and the fact that all of their boxes out in the field support MPEG-4 allows Google to do this.

Check your sources even though Verizon and TWC both use QAM they do it differently. Read my post above.
descartes
join:2013-09-24

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said by NYC33 :

It is arrogant when you give that treatment to every cable channel regardless if it's sports, or a premium like HBO.

Some markets have the HBO/Cinemax channels as 5Mbps h264.

Apparently this is the future of Time Warner Cable... as if 10Mbps mpeg2 wasn't bad enough, now we can get 7HD and a few SD channels per qam.
46436203 (banned)
join:2013-01-03

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I think I just vomited in my mouth a little.

H.264 is twice as efficient as MPEG-2 under the most ideal conditions.

Real-time re-encoding using a commercial encoder is not the most ideal condition.

Even using the x264 codec -- the best H.264 encoder there is -- with multiple passes -- again, not in real-time, which lowers quality -- 1920x1080 H.264 video @ 5 Mbps still looks pretty poor. Netflix now has higher bitrates than this on their 1080p streams.

This is going to look even worse than the 12 Mbps MPEG-2 they give to HBO in most markets currently.

NYC33
@66.249.83.x

NYC33

Anon

They already give the Nba league, MLB extra pass mpg-4 streams channels a 5 megabits per second. I was about to order the league pass, but after experiencing the free week preview I changed my mind.

I think I will get a stream service like Apple TV and buy the sports package straight from them. The feed that Twc offer will continue to sucks.

A cable TV company doesn't give a crap about the picture quality just priceless.

Packeteers
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join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
Asus RT-AC3100
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Packeteers

Premium Member

so NYC33 - what's the deal? after all the bullshit you wrote here, you still didn't say if you allowed any tech to do a premise visit and solved any of your belly aching, or did you just cancel the service rather than be proven wrong about twc nyc service potential.

NYC33
@66.249.83.x

NYC33

Anon

I allowed the tech to come over, and he didn't find any problems with the wires or signal. The problem lies with twc encoders that overcompress the signal. I was proven right
46436203 (banned)
join:2013-01-03

46436203 (banned)

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You brought a tech out to tell you that MPEG-2 has severe macroblocking issues? Really?
spdickey
join:2002-11-17
Pacific Palisades, CA
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I solved all my macro blocking problems by getting rid of the HTPC and switching to a TiVo Premier 4 tuner box.

Seems some PCs sometimes can't keep up recording four streams at once, while playing back at the same time. The OP should also check all the components of his HTPC to make sure the problem isn't being caused there.

Hopefully TWC is following the Three HD channels per QAM Guidelines

Assign only 1 High Bandwidth channel per QAM.
Medium and Low Channel Bandwidth can be group together in any combination
Avoid grouping two or more sports channels on the same QAM.

»www.technicolor.com/site ··· _qam.pdf

why60loss
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The OP likely isn't even getting more than 480p output from the "HD" content because all there boxes suck. I know the tech said 480p is fine over HDMI to a new 46 in TV so that's likely what happened to the OP. It was TOTAL BS, but at TWC the bar can never be set to low for anything.

My dad quit paying for it and still gets a boat load of content. They need to throw away all the 10-15 year old POS boxes all ready and move into at lest the 21st century for pate sake.

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said by spdickey:

Avoid grouping two or more sports channels on the same QAM.

That is the problem. They have TBS on a QAM with 2 other HD channels. There is not enough bandwidth for a sports game and 2 other HD channels at the same time.

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?
46436203 (banned)
join:2013-01-03

46436203 (banned)

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Click for full size
Strobing Lights: A MPEG-2 Encoder's Worst Nightmare (1)
Click for full size
Strobing Lights: A MPEG-2 Encoder's Worst Nightmare (2)
Click for full size
Strobing Lights: A MPEG-2 Encoder's Worst Nightmare (3)
said by Suit Up:

said by spdickey:

Avoid grouping two or more sports channels on the same QAM.

That is the problem. They have TBS on a QAM with 2 other HD channels. There is not enough bandwidth for a sports game and 2 other HD channels at the same time.

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

It doesn't matter what the programming is - a bitrate of less than 30 Mbps is simply insufficient for the MPEG-2 codec.

There WILL be noticeable macroblocks on a regular basis with any 1920x1080 high definition material using the MPEG-2 codec if the bitrate is below 30 Mbps. The minute some high activity shows up on the screen that the MPEG-2 encoder doesn't like, in the blocks will come.

Attached are three screenshots of TBS HD in action on Verizon FiOS (where the bitrate given to the channel is 14 Mbps).

Packeteers
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Asus RT-AC3100
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nyc33 - thanks for that clarification - wow this thread is depressing.
it's hard to believe with all this maxx upgrading going on around nyc
that they have not adjusted compression to take better advantage.
yes, i know isp and qam systems are different, but shouldn't they
both be exploiting the wider packet distribution twc just improved.

NYC33
@66.249.83.x

NYC33

Anon

I had never problems with the signal, in fact CBS HD, and nbc football games look stunning because twc pass the feed without touching them. The problem lies with the cable channels especially the sports ones.
smcallah
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said by 46436203:

So why exactly does Time Warner continue to use Switched Digital Video if it isn't freeing them up any bandwidth?

It frees up bandwidth per hubsite or per node in some situations so that more channels can be delivered. That really has nothing to do with how many channels they put in a QAM.

With SDV, channels are assigned dynamically to a QAM. If a channel isn't being viewed in the hubsite, then SDV will not add that channel to a QAM for that hubsite.

Verizon FiOS has higher bit rates because they don't use QAMs for Internet or VOD which TWC has to do. FiOS only uses QAMs for TV channels. And because their QAMs are turned analog on the side of your house, they can use more than 850Mhz or 1Ghz, thus having more QAMs that TWC is able to attain since they must transmit via coax from a node all the way to your house.

TWC is using up to 16 QAMs just for Internet in Maxx enabled areas. And they use quite a few for VOD. Though they may have QAMs by now that can combine SDV and VOD QAMs dynamically when needed.

DocDrew
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said by why60loss:

The OP likely isn't even getting more than 480p output from the "HD" content because all there boxes suck.

Not true (post a model number of a HD box that only outputs 480p) and just straight trolling as usual from a bitter, exTWC customer who had very local issues.