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WhaleOilBee
What a long strange trip it's been
join:2011-08-02
Manotick, ON

WhaleOilBee

Member

When is a boy not a boy?

Apparently when he says so. Are we defined by our genes, what's in our jeans, or what we feel like on the inside?

»ca.news.yahoo.com/winnip ··· 135.html

I find this story sad from many perspectives, not the least of which is the way this child will be traumatized by all the adults in the story.

How, as a parent, do you handle your 8 yr old son saying he wants to be a girl? Send him off to school in a dress, then scream 'foul' at the inevitable reaction? Or tell him to "cowboy the -f- up"? It's a tough one. I don't envy these people.

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt

Premium Member

Yep thats the world we live in...

Hey, just wait until it wants to enter a kiddie beauty pageant lol...

Jackorama
I Am Woman
Premium Member
join:2008-05-23
Kingston, ON

1 recommendation

Jackorama to WhaleOilBee

Premium Member

to WhaleOilBee
I watched this doc on transgender children.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· mtInLGt8


It answers a lot of questions about how the parents and children handle it. You'll be very surprised at how the kids explain why they are transgender and it all comes from them truthfully. The fact that they are young helps for when they go through the full transition in the future. A very interesting doc to watch.

Mike2009
join:2009-01-13
Ottawa, ON
TP-Link Archer C7
Technicolor DCM476
Grandstream HT701

Mike2009 to HiVolt

Member

to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

Yep thats the world we live in...

Hey, just wait until it wants to enter a kiddie beauty pageant lol...

It?
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

4 recommendations

HeadSpinning to HiVolt

Member

to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

Yep thats the world we live in...

Hey, just wait until it wants to enter a kiddie beauty pageant lol...

It would be more appropriate to use the pronoun of the gender the individual identifies with, rather than "it".
Expand your moderator at work

WhaleOilBee
What a long strange trip it's been
join:2011-08-02
Manotick, ON

WhaleOilBee

Member

Re: When is a boy not a boy?

When I was around 10, I used to play with some other boys at my cousin's house on the next street that was a dead end beside a school field and a vacant wood lot. There was a girl who lived in the house directly behind him; she used to join the boys playing baseball and whatever other games we were playing in the woods. At the time, she would be called a "Tom Boy". She mostly dressed like the boys, liked building model airplanes, would wrestle with the boys, and talked like a boy --- but, she knew she was a girl, and we knew she was a girl. At that age it just didn't matter; we accepted her in our games because she played as well as any of us. At the pool, she would use the girls change room and wear a girl's bathing suit, then join the boys in whatever games we were playing.

So, wrt T.G. kids.... Would it be so terrible, at such a young age, to dress them ambiguously, let them use their physical gender appropriate bathroom and change rooms; don't discourage them, but let them express their selected gender behaviours in a less public confrontational way? Over time, their chosen gender peers might accept them as one of the group, then a gradual physical change ( cross-hormone treatment ) would not be such a shock to everyone as starting the child in school immediately insisting to use the other bathroom. ???
Expand your moderator at work

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord to WhaleOilBee

to WhaleOilBee

Re: When is a boy not a boy?

Gender identity is extremely misunderstood by the public at large. The science on it is starting to come into a new age. With the affordability of modern imaging techniques, there are neurologists who work with psychologists to understand what goes on in the brain when it comes to attraction and identity. Coupled with new therapies that allow doctors to suppress puberty until the teenager has had time to discover the gender he or she identifies with, science is making more and more progressing in helping and understanding what these kids and people go through.

Public perceptions are unlikely to change unless the public is educated on the matter, but considering all the rampant stigma (and plain idiocy), it will be a difficult battle.

The good news is that these kids now have some tools to help them guide their choice. Compared to a decade ago the situation has improved a lot.

GlassDarkly
@107.155.113.x

GlassDarkly to WhaleOilBee

Anon

to WhaleOilBee
said by WhaleOilBee:

When I was around 10, I used to play with some other boys at my cousin's house on the next street that was a dead end beside a school field and a vacant wood lot. There was a girl who lived in the house directly behind him; she used to join the boys playing baseball and whatever other games we were playing in the woods. At the time, she would be called a "Tom Boy". She mostly dressed like the boys, liked building model airplanes, would wrestle with the boys, and talked like a boy --- but, she knew she was a girl, and we knew she was a girl. At that age it just didn't matter; we accepted her in our games because she played as well as any of us. At the pool, she would use the girls change room and wear a girl's bathing suit, then join the boys in whatever games we were playing.

So, wrt T.G. kids.... Would it be so terrible, at such a young age, to dress them ambiguously, let them use their physical gender appropriate bathroom and change rooms; don't discourage them, but let them express their selected gender behaviours in a less public confrontational way? Over time, their chosen gender peers might accept them as one of the group, then a gradual physical change ( cross-hormone treatment ) would not be such a shock to everyone as starting the child in school immediately insisting to use the other bathroom. ???

Good comments. Agree completely.

Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
Premium Member
join:2005-01-20

Thane_Bitter to WhaleOilBee

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to WhaleOilBee
The problem is ignorance, no doubt the bully parent is in need of a fantastic amount of education.

If this parent is being abusive the schools principal should have left his or her chair, exited from his or her office and actually dealt with the problem, when the abuse continued the abusive parent should have been banned from the school. So far it seems the administration is just dragging its backside hoping the issue will just solve itself.

Anyone remember all the bullshit that came up when the first kid infected with HIV tried to go to school in the US? The attitude and ignorance of some of the parents was utterly appalling.
Thane_Bitter

Thane_Bitter to HiVolt

Premium Member

to HiVolt
If you think about it there is nothing positive about those sort of events.
Expand your moderator at work

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

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to WhaleOilBee

Re: When is a boy not a boy?

I don't envy the school in this case. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Please one set of parents, and anger another, no matter what you do. Setting aside one bathroom for transgendered might seem reasonable to some, but not to these parents, apparently....

You could just make all the bathrooms gender neutral, or let each student use whatever they want for whatever reason. Want privacy? Use a stall. These are 8 year olds.... High school might be a different situation.

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

2 recommendations

HiVolt to TigerLord

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to TigerLord
said by TigerLord:

Gender identity is extremely misunderstood by the public at large. The science on it is starting to come into a new age. With the affordability of modern imaging techniques, there are neurologists who work with psychologists to understand what goes on in the brain when it comes to attraction and identity. Coupled with new therapies that allow doctors to suppress puberty until the teenager has had time to discover the gender he or she identifies with, science is making more and more progressing in helping and understanding what these kids and people go through.

Public perceptions are unlikely to change unless the public is educated on the matter, but considering all the rampant stigma (and plain idiocy), it will be a difficult battle.

The good news is that these kids now have some tools to help them guide their choice. Compared to a decade ago the situation has improved a lot.

Are you serious? Manipulating the natural process of puberty so some confused kid can change their gender?

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

2 recommendations

TigerLord

Nature gets it wrong sometimes.

You are proof that gender identity is a difficult concept to grasp and that the public needs to be educated.
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

1 recommendation

HeadSpinning

Member

said by TigerLord:

Nature gets it wrong sometimes.

You are proof that gender identity is a difficult concept to grasp and that the public needs to be educated.

Who says nature got it 'wrong' and it needs to be fixed. What if that's how they're supposed to be, and it's society that needs to be more accepting, rather than interference with surgery and hormones. I'm not saying I'm right, but it is certainly another viewpoint.

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord

said by HeadSpinning:

Who says nature got it 'wrong' and it needs to be fixed.

The research indicates that.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1 to TigerLord

Premium Member

to TigerLord
said by TigerLord:

Nature gets it wrong sometimes.

So do doctors. Given the choice between the results of a billion or so years of natural selection, I am going to go with "nature" on this one. Screwing around with puberty seems like an approach with a large prospect of unintended consequences to me.

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

3 edits

TigerLord to WhaleOilBee

to WhaleOilBee
Natural selection is a random process but it isn't really linked to the issue at hand. The point is that just because nature comes up with something, it doesn't mean it is the best version of what it can make. If we really thought we should let nature take its course most of the time, we wouldn't have transplants or ultra-efficient neonatal care. Why is it OK to let nature do its thing in certain situations, but not others? If your future baby has spina bidifa, why bother fixing it? Why not let nature kill the aberration? Am I right or am I right?

They do not "screw" with puberty, they delay it while the teenagers undergo psychotherapy to determine the proper course for them. Not nature's or society's vision of what is "right" for these teenagers, but their own. Between the years 12-18 most teens go through a very important phase of self discovery. This hormone therapy gives them precious years to think about it hard before they make any permanent decision. Once a decision has been reached, if the teenager decides to preserve his sex, they resume puberty and it goes on a normal course. If they decide a sex change is appropriate, they resume puberty with special hormone therapy so that the teen develops into the sex he or she wants.

There are many specialists all over the worlds who are researching this issue with great rigor. Personally I find it fascinating that science now has the tools to take a real, hard look at issues like these by providing hard empirical evidence that can improve their situation. The science on this is so incredibly complex though, it would be impossible to convince everyone this needs to be taken seriously.

EditS: My gawd all the typos!

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by TigerLord:

Natural selection is a random process but it isn't really linked to the issue at hand. The point is that just because nature comes up with something, it doesn't mean it is the best version of what it can make. If we really thought we should let nature take its course most of the time, we wouldn't have transplants or ultra-efficient neonatal care. Why is it OK to let nature do its thing in certain situations, but not others? If your future baby has spina bidifa, why bother fixing it? Why not let nature kill the aberration? Am I right or am I right?

There is a fundamental ethical and medical difference between "fixing an illness" and interfering in the otherwise normal development of a child.

You can probably argue "pros and cons" for such an approach. However, if I had a child who identified as another gender, I am not sure if I would be wild about the idea of medical intervention on the child before the child itself was a legal adult. Life-saving care? No brainer of course. That? Less so.

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord

Medically there is no difference, you are interfering with nature's course in both situation. Ethically and morally perhaps even, there are differences. They certainly merit to be discussed. Debated. Analyzed. Comprehended. On a scope and vision that goes far beyond the open-mindedness displayed in this thread.

Delaying puberty until they are 18 allows them more time to discover their true self. If at 16, 17 or 18 the teen says "ok let's resume puberty I'm ready to be [Whatever]" they get to be that.

Practically, it just means that girls will get their boobs late and guys won't develop sexually until puberty is resumed. The hormone therapy ensures they keep growing at an otherwise normal rate.

These kids are followed by endocrinologists, neurologists, psychiatrists, psychologists, biochemists and pharmacists, on top of nurses and a slew of other support groups and resources.

This is isn't mad science or tinkering in a basement or attic like Kinsey did. This is exact, careful science backed with a rigorous method that only seeks to help these kids find some peace and hopefully, a happy productive life.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by TigerLord:

This is isn't mad science or tinkering in a basement or attic like Kinsey did. This is exact, careful science backed with a rigorous method that only seeks to help these kids find some peace and hopefully, a happy productive life.

Actually, that sounds exactly like a mad scientist tinkering around with things just because they can, with little careful regard to whether they should.

These are ethical dilemmas that need to be tackled sooner, rather than later. How soon before there are genetic therapies to "fix" a child's stature? Maybe Dad wants a basketball star in the family. Should we pump kids full of steroids so they play football better? etc.. etc..

High School, and "coming of age" are the normal course of events for a human being. To delay that seems, again, to be playing with things with the potential for unintended negative consequences.

What do you tell the 18 year old when they are ready to "pick" a gender? How are they to actually know, when they've been experimentally pumped full of steroids for years? Isn't it at least possible, that their sexual identity might be altered by normal puberty? Mine was. As an eight year old, like the age of the child in this story, I didn't really "have" a sexual identity until puberty. Oh sure, I knew I had certain physical differences, and found girls attractive for some unknown reason. But those were pretty much irrelevant to the things I was doing as an eight year old.

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord

said by Ian1:

Actually, that sounds exactly like a mad scientist tinkering around with things just because they can, with little careful regard to whether they should.

All those researchers debate these things at great length. It's all over the literature. You think there are no ethical committees involved in these experiments?
said by Ian1:

These are ethical dilemmas that need to be tackled sooner, rather than later. How soon before there are genetic therapies to "fix" a child's stature? Maybe Dad wants a basketball star in the family. Should we pump kids full of steroids so they play football better? etc.. etc..

These are all good questions that deserve to be debated.
said by Ian1:

High School, and "coming of age" are the normal course of events for a human being. To delay that seems, again, to be playing with things with the potential for unintended negative consequences.

Gender identity and coming of age are different things, though they can be intertwined. Did you know we all start as female and differentiate a little bit later in the womb? In the developmental process, the embryo sometimes gets the wrong doses of hormones from the mother due to failing glands or other factor, which can later manifest in abnormal hormonal balances in that child. That is what the research appears to indicate. Often, transchildren already identify strongly with the opposite sex well before the middle of childhood, let alone middle of teenagehood.

I imagine you view sexual reassignment surgery in the same light?

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by TigerLord:

I imagine you view sexual reassignment surgery in the same light?

I don't "view it" much at all in the normal course of events. But whatever an adult chooses to medically do with their own body seems to be in the realm of "none of my business". What a parent does to their child, is something where ethical questions ought to be carefully weighed.

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord

The children are involved in the discussion of course, and as soon as they hit the age of medical consent, they get to call the shots while parents offer precious support and council. And the parents are often helped by other parents who are going through similar situations. There are groups, associations,forums, etc.

I'm not sure how Canada handles this approach, if it's being done anywhere at all. I'm not sure whether halting puberty at 14 would be too late, if doctors were inclined to do the therapy but wanted to wait until the legal consent age.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by TigerLord:

The children are involved in the discussion of course, and as soon as they hit the age of medical consent..

There is no legal age in Ontario, and I think it varies from Province to Province. In Ontario it is the judgment of the Physician if the consent is considered informed, and the patient is capable of the judgment.

I am no doctor, but it seems unlikely to me that a pre-pubescent child is equipped to make those decisions. The simple process of puberty exerts profound differences in brain development and behaviour. A decision made prior to puberty might be different to that of after.

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord

said by Ian1:

I am no doctor, but it seems unlikely to me that a pre-pubescent child is equipped to make those decisions. The simple process of puberty exerts profound differences in brain development and behaviour. A decision made prior to puberty might be different to that of after.

In Quebec age of consent is 14.

In certain US states, children as young as 12 were granted medical emancipation after they could demonstrate to a court of law they had the necessary critical thinking skills to make the best decisions for themselves. Sometimes legal emancipation can even be granted even if the parent or guardian is really sane and obviously only wants the best for the teenager or child.

A pre-pubescent child can absolutely be equipped to make those decisions, but you are correct that puberty, or rather the years that represent it in a typical education, are important at shaping what makes us us. Not because of the hormones, but the experiences. That's why puberty (in the hormonal sense) is delayed, so they can experience those years without having to commit to a permanent situation that requires extensive surgery to change later. There will still be a need for surgery for a complete change, obviously, but boys becoming girls would grow normal breasts and girls becoming boys would NOT get them, and develop an adam's apple, beard, etc.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by TigerLord:

A pre-pubescent child can absolutely be equipped to make those decisions, but you are correct that puberty, or rather the years that represent it in a typical education, are important at shaping what makes us us. Not because of the hormones, but the experiences. That's why puberty (in the hormonal sense) is delayed, so they can experience those years without having to commit to a permanent situation that requires extensive surgery to change later.

Brain changes at puberty are a lot more extensive than simple experiences. And delaying puberty would radically affect brain development, and not necessarily in all "good" ways. That it would save some money on surgery later seems a pretty weak argument to risk that to me.

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord

It's not about money, obviously.