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Kahless2k
join:2009-06-13
Brantford, ON

Kahless2k

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Trinity grad "attacked" for being Christian

»www.cbc.ca/news/canada/b ··· .2791323

A Trinity Western University graduate says she was “attacked” over her religion by a Norwegian wilderness tourism company, just for applying for a job.

--

Company says she simply wasn't qualified but the hiring manager has a big mouth and should have just kept it shut.

I'm torn.. On one side it is clear discrimination, but on the other side of things she is being judged based on a school (which openly states it's religious views) she freely chose to attend.

It seems nobody can accept responsibility for their decisions these days. Would she complain if it was the opposite case and she was chosen for a job over someone else because of the school?

When I list my education on my resume, I assume that the school's reputation will impact how it's viewed (quality of education, etc).

RogueMonk
Premium Member
join:2003-02-11
Stoney Creek, ON

RogueMonk

Premium Member

As is often the case with the media, its hard to know what's the true story here.

As it sounds, it seems like discrimination (and unprofessional). But -- like I said -- its the media -- who knows.

Styvas
Who are we? Forge FC!
Premium Member
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON

1 recommendation

Styvas to Kahless2k

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to Kahless2k
Like you said, he should have kept his mouth shut. But he didn't, and in doing so he broke the law. Most here will probably justify his response because they agree with him. Replace Christian with Muslim and anti-gay with anti-West, or First Nations and alcoholic, and suddenly it seems unjustifiable.

donoreo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON

1 recommendation

donoreo to Kahless2k

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to Kahless2k

Re: Trinity grad "attacked" for being Christian

Replace "Christian" with pretty much anything and it is not right. She can believe in fairies or any other mythology.

Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
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join:2005-01-20

Thane_Bitter to Kahless2k

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to Kahless2k

Re: Trinity grad "attacked" for being Christian

I am sure the HRC will have another field day with this, certainly the responses from the HR 'viking' certainly would be completely unnecessary.

For fun I looked at their hiring requirements, the CBC story indicates that the TWU grade taught white water rafting but didn't bother to check what level of certifications she actually had. This outdoor company has a strict list of requirements and its very possible she lack some of the certification or practical experience this company wanted. The site also has that look of an Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue (minus the woman) which might hint at the sort of direction this organization runs in.

Again its a one sided story and our HRC also works in even more of a one sided manner so we can forget about finding out if she even could have met the companies standards for employment. Her feelings are hurt and I am sure much like the irate lesbian that threw a glass of water on a comic, she to will get a large financial settlement.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

1 recommendation

DKS to Kahless2k

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Re: Trinity grad "attacked" for being Christian

She has a good case. The company has no business saying anything and violated the law in expressing their opinion of her religious beliefs to her.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

2 recommendations

peterboro (banned)

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said by DKS:

She has a good case.

In a hiring case, a prima facie case of discrimination is established by proving the following, (1) the person was qualified for the particular employment; (2) the person was not hired; (3) someone no better qualified but lacking the distinguishing feature which is the gravamen of the human rights complaint subsequently obtained the position.

So the pith and substance of the case may come down to number 1 and not necessarily a slam dunk.

Styvas
Who are we? Forge FC!
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join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON

Styvas

Premium Member

Had the hiring manager left it at the original email, as reported (obviously, we don't have access to the emails to know exactly how the exchange went), you might be right. But the subsequent emails, in my opinion as an armchair non-lawyer, seem to cross the line. His motivation towards her seems clear.

If she simply wasn't qualified, which might even be the case, he should have left it at that. It sucks to be rejected for a job, but it happens. What should not happen, in that process, is for any reference to your religion to be raised, unless there is a legitimate religious or non-religious requirement of some sort for doing the job.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned)

Member

Most hiring managers and HR personnel are devious scum bags who are quite proficient at hiding their true intentions. Good to see an example where they slipped up.

However, despite the egregious comments the complainant still has to provide evidence she was qualified for the job.

I'm sure she will get a significant amount of deference from the decision maker that unfortunately may be overturned on appeal.

Styvas
Who are we? Forge FC!
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join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON

Styvas

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Fair enough.

Kardinal
Dei Gratina Regina
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join:2001-02-04
N of 49th

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Ummmm.....

Am I the only one who finds the subject line a bit misleading, in that a "Trinity grad" would be someone who graduated from Trinity College (part of U of T), which is an arts & sciences undergraduate school as well as the oldest Anglican theological school in Canada? Trinity is older than Canada (founded in 1851); Trinity Western is a recent creation (founded in 1962).

Trinity /= Trinity Western.

All that being said, there is *always* bias in hiring, whether it's hiring-for-a-quota in the public service, or 'looking for the right sort' in the private sector, so if the hiring manager can't disguise it properly the company might be in trouble. I'm not going to speculate on this particular case.......mostly because I can't be bothered.

donoreo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON

donoreo

Premium Member

I also thought the same. I am not sure I heard of Trinity Western.

I also thought of Trinity College School, being a Port Hope native.

Styvas
Who are we? Forge FC!
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Hamilton, ON

Styvas

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Anyone familiar with the school calls it Trinity, but regardless...the CBC article correctly identifies it, does it not?

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to peterboro

to peterboro
said by peterboro:

Most hiring managers and HR personnel are devious scum bags who are quite proficient at hiding their true intentions. Good to see an example where they slipped up.

However, despite the egregious comments the complainant still has to provide evidence she was qualified for the job.

I'm sure she will get a significant amount of deference from the decision maker that unfortunately may be overturned on appeal.

May and maybe not. If she can show she was a candidate who was potentially qualified, then disqualifying her on the basis of her religious beliefs does cross the line. At the very worst she has already won, because there may well be people who will not do business with that particular company, if that is their attitude to their potential customers. I would, in all probability, be anathema to that company, based on my employer and my vocation. Would I want to deal with a company with that attitude towards people? Nope. Another company I will add to my personal "do not trade" list.

Styvas
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join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON

Styvas

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As a point of interest, there is no connection between TWU and Trinity College. The Western refers to the western base of TWU (TWC when it was founded) as opposed to the Chicago base of Trinity College, another Evangelical Free Church school, and it's seminary.

Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
Premium Member
join:2005-01-20

Thane_Bitter to DKS

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I don't think she had the training or could have possibly passed the fitness requirements. Her past job with a rafting outfit in BC had much lower requirments, here is a link of a job posting to her old employer: »www.jobsonamap.com/chill ··· 6-OCnvqB

They needed a CPR and wilderness certificate, both of which could be obtained by nearly anyone, on the other hand Amaruk's requirements are more lengthy. Looking at her complaint to the HRC the lawyer appears to be suggesting that her hair was an issue.

"Minimum Requirements to Apply
• No Violation under any Wildlife Legislation
• Current Active/Inactive PAWGI Certified Assistant Guide (CAG) certification
• Backcountry Experience
• Legally entitled to work in region of operation
• Fluent in English
• Fluent in official language of country of employment (if not English)
• Meet AMARUKĀ® minimum Fitness Standards:

1. Be able to swim for 500 meters in under 12 minutes
2. Be able to perform a minimum of 42 push ups in 2 min max
3. Be able to perform a minimum of 8 pull ups (no time limit)
4. Be able to perform a 2.5km run in no more than 11 minutes"

"Applications that do not meet all minimum requirements, and/or do not include all required documentation, will be rejected with prejudice."

Well they certainly did reject her with prejudice and then some.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to Thane_Bitter

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to Thane_Bitter
said by Thane_Bitter:

Again its a one sided story....

Reading the full story it hardly seems one-sided.

(Hiring manager Amundsen in his e-mail) wrote that she wasn't qualified and "unlike Trinity Western University, we embrace diversity, and the right of people to sleep with or marry whoever they want."

She's not responsible for the beliefs of the university. They may or not be her own beliefs. She may have gone to school there for some other reason. But even if she did share those beliefs, they have nothing to do with the job.

In the rejection email, Amundsen also wrote: "The Norse background of most of the guys at the management level means that we are not a Christian organization, and most of us actually see Christianity as having destroyed our culture, tradition and way of life."

OK, that's just bizarre, and sounds like HE is the one not qualified for a job.

I thought Norway was Christian at least in the last thousand years. Their flag is a cross.

The CEO is stoned as well. He wrote that if a man marries a B.C. woman, that's "emasculation".

Heck, these guys are the Canadian version of the American "Duck Dynasty" family.
PX Eliezer1

PX Eliezer1 to Styvas

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to Styvas
said by Styvas:

Anyone familiar with the school calls it Trinity, but regardless...the CBC article correctly identifies it, does it not?

Trinity Western has been discussed at length in this forum because of the law school controversy. I instantly recognized the name.

Context is important---for example Windsor - [Nova Scotia, Ontario, and Quebec].
PX Eliezer1

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PX Eliezer1 to Thane_Bitter

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to Thane_Bitter
said by Thane_Bitter:

I don't think she had the training or could have possibly passed the fitness requirements. Her past job with a rafting outfit in BC had much lower requirements....

Exactly.

The more unqualified she was, the more this becomes an example of religious discrimination....

....BECAUSE it would have been SO EASY to reject her on the qualifications.

The self-proclaimed Norse guy went OUT OF HIS WAY to slam her religion.

-----

Considering that they slammed ALL Christians, not just of the TWU variety, what the heck are the CUSTOMERS supposed to think ????

By this guy so brutally slamming Christianity he will offend the vast majority of his customers.

Christians will be offended.
Jews will be offended too, we are very sensitive to this sort of shit.
Muslims will be offended also, Islam regards Christians as "people of the book".

He's an idiot to offend his whole customer base, and put it in writing!
elgoog
join:2014-09-09
Kitchener, ON

elgoog to Kahless2k

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Reading a bit more about this school, it's discriminatory behaviour and how it teaches I would say the company does have the right to refuse to hire anyone from that school. That being said Olaf Amundsen does say in his first email she doesn't meet the requirements and that's why she is not qualified.

The second half of the first email Olaf Amundsen sends is an issue with the discrimination that is taught at the fundamental Christian university she got her degree at. The rest of the emails are a back and forth argument about the forms of discrimination at the school.

I have no issue with companies choosing not to hire people based on were their degree is from.

The school had it's Law accreditation rejected in many provinces because the school and it's teachings routinely discriminates against other religions, unmarried couples and homosexuals. Students must sign a document to live in and out of school by those discriminatory believes.

The school also openly discriminates against who they will hire based on religious believes, sexual orientation and marital status. You also must sign and attest to “belief in the bible, in one infinitely perfect god, that Jesus Christ was a real man, and in 'the bodily resurrection of the dead; of the believer to everlasting blessedness and joy with the Lord, of the unbeliever to judgment and everlasting conscious punishment.'”

So if I'm a company doing tourism dealing with people from many races, religions and sexual orientations I wouldn't hire anyone who signs such a document.

So why are people up in arms when one company says they don't want people with discriminatory backgrounds; and those same people are silent when another company with 100's of employees will only hire people who discriminate?

Canadian Association of University Teachers has also criticized the school for their discriminatory hiring practices. In addition, they made the same point Olaf Amundsen about the validity of a biology degree taught from a doctrine perspective rather then a science perspective.
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

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Christian de Duve, winner of the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 1974, was educated at a Jesuit university.

Noted biologist Theodor Schwann (as in Schwann cell) was educated at a Jesuit college.

Francis Collins, current head of the (US) National Institutes of Health, has written of his deep belief in Jesus Christ and the importance of that belief in his life.

Just a few quick examples....

The idea that biology and religion have to be disconnected is wrong.

Styvas
Who are we? Forge FC!
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join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON

Styvas to elgoog

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While there is much I could say in response to your post, the bottom line is that provincial legislation and federal human rights/Charter protection allow TWU to act as they do with respect to hiring practices and doctrinal beliefs. While I am aware that many, many disagree with this and find it repugnant, the university is well within its legal rights. Sometimes, unfortunately (depending on one's perspective), the law is an ass.

a_large_rock
join:2003-08-02
L6H0H3

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In our hiring process we do scrutinize those with a religious background more heavily.

Questions like "Do you feel the applicants religious education and beliefs will in anyway conflict with the position applied for, fellow employees, or the policies of the company?" If the interviewer puts anything but 'No' the applicant is immediately disqualified.

A number of TWU grads have been disqualified with a 'yes' there.

Styvas
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Styvas

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And you may be walking a fine line by doing so, although depending on how you approach the issue, your company may not technically be discriminating. I would think that your interviewer would have to be asking questions that relate specifically to the applicant's religious perspective in order to fill in a 'yes' or 'no' for that questions, and this would be illegal in most circumstances.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

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DKS to a_large_rock

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said by a_large_rock:

In our hiring process we do scrutinize those with a religious background more heavily.

Questions like "Do you feel the applicants religious education and beliefs will in anyway conflict with the position applied for, fellow employees, or the policies of the company?" If the interviewer puts anything but 'No' the applicant is immediately disqualified.

A number of TWU grads have been disqualified with a 'yes' there.

Why would you? That's a biased hiring question and potential for discrimination based on religion. If you are not a religious organization yourself, you are unable to ask about religious beliefs, anyway.
elgoog
join:2014-09-09
Kitchener, ON

elgoog

Member

The applicant isn't asked that question. The interviewer is asked that.

We had an engineer who wouldn't work with women because of his religion. Are you saying we can't disqualify even though he goes against the companies policy?

a_large_rock
join:2003-08-02
L6H0H3

a_large_rock

Member

yeah.. it's to weed out those extreme cases... nothing against the religion.. but against things that don't fit with the company.. or the work environment.
analog andy
join:2005-01-03
Surrey, BC

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It might be walking a fine line but if the employee can't fulfill the required duties because their religious beliefs, than they are not fulfilling their position and really shouldn't be applying there in the first place.

Styvas
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Styvas

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Except the only reason the employer would know about it is if they asked, which is largely illegal. Therein lies the problem.

If there are religious references on their resume (e.g., school, volunteer activities, past employers, etc.) and the company simply assumes that there will be a religious problem, then it may not be discrimination (as long as the employer doesn't let on that this was the reason they declined to hire), but it remains bigotry, nonetheless.
Styvas

Styvas

Premium Member

If my last name is Weinberg or Hussain and I apply to work at a hot dog stand, it's probably reasonable to ask if I understand I'll be working with pork and if I have any objections to this, as long as the question isn't phrased in terms of religion.