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Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

[Electrical] Using back to back outlets to pass a cable through outside wall

I need to run a cable through the outside wall of a condominium apartment I own to the balcony. I am would like to use the method described below to avoid drilling through the wall. Six months ago all homeowners were notified they own the balcony and must pay additional maintenance fees to maintain it based on square footage. There are three outdoor outlets with an interior outlet on the opposite side of each exterior outlet along the balcony wall. I plan on adding an outdoor box extension to one outdoor outlet and one interior box extension to the interior outlet that is opposite to the other. Can the experts reading this post advise if the HOA can raise any issues regarding running a CAT5 or COAX cable through the bushing between the two outlet boxes.? There are three conductors running through the bushing, Hot, Neutral and Ground. The outlet boxes are held by a conduit and the concrete wall. There might be additional knock outs I can remove, to isolate the class 2 wire from the power conductors. The building is located in Cape Canaveral, Florida.
dick white
Premium Member
join:2000-03-24
Springfield, VA

1 recommendation

dick white

Premium Member

I'm not an electrician and I don't play one on TV, but it is my clear understanding of such things that you are not allowed to mix high voltage and low/no voltage wiring in the same box or conduit. It sounds to me like you will need a new hole in the wall to pass the coax or network cables to the balconey. The true sparkies will be along shortly.

dw
doechsli
join:2003-11-26
Louisville, KY

doechsli

Member

Besides whatever code issues, Ethernet cables in close proximity to 120 Volt cables will pick up the RF "noise" and potentially cause packet loss........

PeeWee
Premium Member
join:2001-10-21
Madera, CA

1 recommendation

PeeWee

Premium Member

My understanding is you can cross high voltage in close proximity without issues. You cannot run parallel to high voltage in close proximity. I run a lot of network cabling and this is the rule as has been brought to my attention and has prevented issues.

ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium Member
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON

ArthurS to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
Pretty much anywhere in North America, electrical code does not allow one to share conduit or backbox space with low voltage (CAT5 or Coax) AND AC line voltage cables. They must be kept separate. Do not pass "Go" do not collect $200.

Some jurisdictions allow one to put a metal partition inside a multigang box to keep them separate. However the conduit runs between sectioned boxes must be kept separate. I do this frequently with multi-function AV floorboxes/wallboxes.

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

John Galt6 to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
What others have stated is the case...

You might see if one of the boxes is the dead-end, and pull the conductors back into the preceding box and remove them. This would free up the box for your intended purposes.

Of course you would be losing the functionality of the receptacles in the dead-end, but that might not be a problem.

cowboyro
Premium Member
join:2000-10-11
CT

1 recommendation

cowboyro to doechsli

Premium Member

to doechsli
said by doechsli:

Besides whatever code issues, Ethernet cables in close proximity to 120 Volt cables will pick up the RF "noise" and potentially cause packet loss

No, they will not.
First 60Hz is not even close to RF. Maybe there will be some capacitive coupling, but the effects are practically zero as signals in the ethernet cables are differential, and common mode noise is being reduced by at least 30dB in the transformer.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt to ArthurS

Member

to ArthurS
said by ArthurS:

Some jurisdictions allow one to put a metal partition inside a multigang box to keep them separate.

That information about a partition is helpful. I will drill a hole in the back of each box of sufficient size to pass a piece of 3/8 I.D. threaded steel or brass tubing, through to shield the cable from interference. There are various size threaded tubing used for assembling lamps. Two nuts and washers will keep the tubing in position. The cable is passing through the two outlet boxes and will not be run in the same conduit as the AC wiring.

robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

robbin

Mod

said by Mr Matt:

I will drill a hole in the back of each box of sufficient size to pass a piece of 3/8 I.D. threaded steel or brass tubing, through to shield the cable from interference. The cable is passing through the two outlet boxes and will not be run in the same conduit as the AC wiring.

As long as you are aware that this is a violation of the electric code and you are OK with that, then go ahead. I don't think that I would do that in a multi-family structure but I'm sure some others would.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
Does the balcony need the coax year round? I would imagine no since balcony indicates open to the elements and as such there is no such thing as a water proof TV. If there is a going to be a TV on a cart that is wheeled out to watch on a cool evening I would just feed the coax out a window when using the outside and keep a splitter indoors.

chamberc
Premium Member
join:2008-08-05
Addison, TX

chamberc to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
said by Mr Matt:

I need to run a cable through the outside wall of a condominium apartment I own to the balcony. I am would like to use the method described below to avoid drilling through the wall. Six months ago all homeowners were notified they own the balcony and must pay additional maintenance fees to maintain it based on square footage. There are three outdoor outlets with an interior outlet on the opposite side of each exterior outlet along the balcony wall. I plan on adding an outdoor box extension to one outdoor outlet and one interior box extension to the interior outlet that is opposite to the other. Can the experts reading this post advise if the HOA can raise any issues regarding running a CAT5 or COAX cable through the bushing between the two outlet boxes.? There are three conductors running through the bushing, Hot, Neutral and Ground. The outlet boxes are held by a conduit and the concrete wall. There might be additional knock outs I can remove, to isolate the class 2 wire from the power conductors. The building is located in Cape Canaveral, Florida.

That'll work fine.

ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium Member
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON

1 recommendation

ArthurS to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
said by Mr Matt:

That information about a partition is helpful. I will drill a hole in the back of each box of sufficient size to pass a piece of 3/8 I.D. threaded steel or brass tubing, through to shield the cable from interference. There are various size threaded tubing used for assembling lamps. Two nuts and washers will keep the tubing in position. The cable is passing through the two outlet boxes and will not be run in the same conduit as the AC wiring.

Instead of "modding" the box and as a result using it outside of it's rated (and approved) purpose, purchase the right multigang box with partition and replace what is currently there. Then you achieve what you're trying to do, and keeping everything code compliant.

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

John Galt6

Premium Member

It's in a concrete wall...

cowboyro
Premium Member
join:2000-10-11
CT

cowboyro to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
said by Mr Matt:

I will drill a hole in the back of each box of sufficient size to pass a piece of 3/8 I.D. threaded steel or brass tubing, through to shield the cable from interference.

Overkill and that would actually increase the capacitive coupling unless it is grounded. There is no interference from nearby circuits. NONE. The transformers in network interfaces effectively shunt any differential 60Hz signal and any remaining common mode signal that manages to pass through via capacitive coupling is killed by 50 Ohm resistors. Hell, ethernet cables can be used to carry power themselves (PoE)... I am yet to hear about one single instance of power cables causing issues in a residential setting.
Some time ago I tried to measure the level of noise induced in my office; ethernet cables run in parallel with 120V and 240V circuits for about 40ft. The oscilloscope did not register anything on the circuit side.

ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium Member
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON

ArthurS to John Galt6

Premium Member

to John Galt6
said by John Galt6:

It's in a concrete wall...

Ah! Wasn't paying attention....surface mount box then?
psiu
join:2004-01-20
Farmington, MI

psiu to Mr Matt

Member

to Mr Matt
Pictures!

Also, hmmm concrete wall. Is it cinder block on your upper (I'm assuming from 'balcony') level? Quite possibly (likely) not filled. Not *that* hard to install an outlet properly on your own, do some exploring behind the outlets and boxes already there (power...off).

If you can confirm they are open inside, you can drill it easy enough (just big enough to get the cable through), easy enough to mount a weather rated box (just drill a couple small holes and use anchors or tapcons) and then mount your faceplate and somewhere in there decide whether the box or faceplate will protect the jack itself (some kind of clear flip down cover that you can keep a cord plugged in has always seemed the most useful to me). Squirt a little silicone sealant in the hole before you seal it all up.

On the inside, heck, you can just have your cable running into the wall with a basic coax grommet/bushing doodad if you want.

This seems a lot better to me than hacking it into in-use electrical boxes, but I'm probably biased. ( IBEW LU58 Installer/Tech :P )

pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE

pende_tim

Premium Member

Just to clarify : I believe the op is in a condo with a HOA that prohibits drilling through to outside walls or attaching anything on the exterior.

The function of this coax to the balcony is to attach to a DirecTV dish that is to be installed on his balcony.
LittleBill
join:2013-05-24

LittleBill

Member

»www.amazon.com/Arlington ··· JVBND4K0

Thespis
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Premium Member
join:2004-08-03
Keller, TX

Thespis to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
Flat coax through a door or window?
»www.amazon.com/Perfect-V ··· lat+coax
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88 to robbin

Member

to robbin
said by robbin:

said by Mr Matt:

I will drill a hole in the back of each box of sufficient size to pass a piece of 3/8 I.D. threaded steel or brass tubing, through to shield the cable from interference. The cable is passing through the two outlet boxes and will not be run in the same conduit as the AC wiring.

As long as you are aware that this is a violation of the electric code and you are OK with that, then go ahead. I don't think that I would do that in a multi-family structure but I'm sure some others would.

So why is this a code violation? RMC and galvanized Schedule 40 are the same thing.

robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

robbin

Mod

Unless I am missing something the OP is proposing having low voltage cable in the same electrical box as 120v electricity. That is not allowable.

SparkChaser
Premium Member
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA

SparkChaser

Premium Member

Not missing anything, Robbin ( that I can see)

"There are three conductors running through the bushing, Hot, Neutral and Ground. The outlet boxes are held by a conduit and the concrete wall. "

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

1 recommendation

John Galt6 to robbin

Premium Member

to robbin
It is allowable, but with conditions and in circumstances that are not applicable to the OPs situation.

So yes, the answer is no.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt to ArthurS

Member

to ArthurS
said by ArthurS:

Ah! Wasn't paying attention....surface mount box then?

For illustrative purposes. Flange type of box extension to be installed outside. Indoor type Wiremold starter box to be installed inside.
TheMG
Premium Member
join:2007-09-04
Canada
MikroTik RB450G
Cisco DPC3008
Cisco SPA112

1 recommendation

TheMG to cowboyro

Premium Member

to cowboyro
said by cowboyro:

said by doechsli:

Besides whatever code issues, Ethernet cables in close proximity to 120 Volt cables will pick up the RF "noise" and potentially cause packet loss

No, they will not.

+1

I've never bothered to separate ethernet cables and power cords, and have never had any issues at all. No errors, dropouts, or even as much as a slight decrease in bandwidth. In some places I have CAT5e running parallel to power cables (less than an inch apart) for a 50 foot run. Never a problem.

Ethernet is designed to be very immune to external interference.

Interference is therefore not a concern for your proposed project of passing the cable through a wall. Complying with electrical codes is pretty much all you need to be concerned with.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
Don't do it for all the reasons already articulated.

Plus you're in Florida - land of wind-driven rain. You're just asking for trouble inside your walls over time.

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

whizkid3 to Mr Matt

MVM

to Mr Matt
A few things from my perspective:

1. Its an electrical code violation, dangerous and IMHO just plain stupid to run your low-voltage cable through an AC powered electrical box. Do not drill holes in it; do not run your wiring through it.

2. How much is the condo worth? Apparently its not worth enough for you to hire a professional to run your low-voltage wiring instead of you jury-rigging a crap job together?

3. Of course holes can be drilled to the outside (by a professional). Its a frickin building. This is how a professional will install the wiring. This is how they installed the receptacles in the first place. Drill the holes yourself, without knowing what you are doing, and you can end up with leaks, water damage, etc.

4. Have it done right. Get a professional that will follow the building rules & requirements, etc.

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

1 recommendation

LazMan to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
Long story short - there's about 1000 reasons why sneaking it through with the electrical is a bad idea. Code compliance and liability being the first 2 that come to mind, given you're in an MDU Condo with an HOA.

Get permission from the HoA and/or Condo board to do it right... Then do it, or have it done - right.
joewho
Premium Member
join:2004-08-20
Dundee, IL

joewho to Mr Matt

Premium Member

to Mr Matt
If this is for a dish, just look at everyone elses setup. HOA suck imo. You may have to drill through some wood molding down low, run it under the carpet and up a wall to where you want it.

OldCableGuy3
@207.191.193.x

OldCableGuy3 to pende_tim

Anon

to pende_tim
I realize that sometimes visitors to this site come from our northern brother but last I checked this is America, if you own property you should be able to do whatever you want with it, and if that means drilling a hole to run coax, then I'd grab the Dewalt and start drilling.

If someone is going to tell me how to live inside the home that I own, then they can start making the mortgage payments. If I make the payments, I'll decide how to live. If I want to use tinfoil and tarps for curtains, that's my right. If I want to drill a hole for DirecTV, that's my right. We live in America, not communist China.