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batsona
Maryland
join:2004-04-17
Ellicott City, MD

batsona

Member

VZ dropped PPPoe for DHCP??

I'm an IT person by trade, and when something like this happens, I need to hit the liquor store... Read on...

At just about 12:00a this past Friday, VZ requested that my firewall renew its address, which it did (PPPoe). It then did the same about 3-4min later at about 12:03a. This time, my firewall complained for the rest of the morning, and all weekend:

Oct 19 06:58:58 My-Firewall pppd[2694]: Timeout waiting for PADO packets

When I got back from my weekend trip, I tried all 4,978 things that one usually tries:

a.)power-cycle firewall
b.)power-cycle switch
c.)re-seat all cables
d.) power-cycle ONT
e.) Connecting laptop directly to ONT (which successfully received a DHCP offer).

Then I deleted & re-built the config for my external interface on my firewall*. Multiple times. I even tried DHCP as well as PPPoe, and nothing worked. Then I got medieval. I got Wireshark out. Both PPPoe discoveries were going out, and DHCP discoveries were going out, but not answered.

After working this for 1.5 hours, DHCP magically started working - which is odd, because I've been on PPPoe since installation in 2005. I bounced the firewall a few times, and DHCP got me the same IP address just fine.

SO, PPPoe stopped working at midnight on Friday, and was down all weekend. Then i worked things for almost 2h, then DHCP magically works (which is how I'm writing this...)

*My firewall is a freeware version of this product. The freeware version stopped being supported when Vyatta was acquired by Brocade: »www.brocade.com/products ··· dex.page
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

PJL

Member

So us your interface with the Verizon network a Verizon Actiontec router? If it was, they probably would have automatically reconfigured your router from PPPoe to DHCP. They have been moving accounts off of PPPoe.
batsona
Maryland
join:2004-04-17
Ellicott City, MD

1 recommendation

batsona

Member

OP here: VZ then assumes that 101% of all customers are running the Actiontec in its original config, which allows Verizon to re-config remotely? I thought about 40% of customers probably run their own setup w/o Actiontec being the edge network device. These devices will all mysteriously die when Verizon switches off PPPoe. An addendum to my original post -- after examining more syslog, it looks like a duplex mismatch may have hurt DHCP getting an IP. ---with very little, if any traffic on the line, I wouldn't think a mismatch would have that bad an impact....

PoloDude
Premium Member
join:2006-03-29
Aiken, SC

1 recommendation

PoloDude

Premium Member

IMOP and from all that I see in the field. 40% is not even close to the number. I would put it at about 1 (one)% Even business accounts are a small number. You have to take into account all of the small shops,bodegas etc.
batsona
Maryland
join:2004-04-17
Ellicott City, MD

batsona

Member

Click for full size
OP Here: Here's a snip from my WireShark capture. Interesting to note that the next-hop layer-2 device beyond my ONT, in Verizon's cloud, is a Juniper Networks device.

Line 9 is my firewall ARPing for its default gateway in Verizon's network. Line 10 is that device responding with its MAC addr. My firewall uses an Intel NIC, and Verizon's device appears to be a Juniper device.

Smith6612
MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY

1 recommendation

Smith6612

MVM

Verizon moved much of their edge network, even on DSL, for better or worse to Juniper years ago. On DSL the Juniper gear has caused headaches. On FiOS, it works beautifully.
mna
join:2002-01-29
Reston, VA

mna to batsona

Member

to batsona
Thanks for the troubleshooting. I spent a considerable amount of time over the weekend with this issue.

I had my ASUS RT N66U as my primary router for a couple of years. It stopped working on Friday. When I called Verizon, they had me use the Actiontec (rev. C!) as the primary device. I have my router behind the Actiontec.

Were you able to get your router working as primary?

TIA
batsona
Maryland
join:2004-04-17
Ellicott City, MD

batsona

Member

OP here: I was able to get my firewall to pick up a DHCP address after working on it for a while. --Apparently a duplex mismatch has a bigger impact than I thought on DHCP... Once I solved that, I saw the "DHCPOFFER" packet come back from Verizon.
propcgamer
join:2001-10-10
011010101

propcgamer to batsona

Member

to batsona
Were you set to auto neg or a manual setting?

buckingham
Doylstown Pa
Premium Member
join:2005-07-17
Buckingham, PA

buckingham to batsona

Premium Member

to batsona
batsona, I'm really surprised you were still on PPOE this long! VZ started moving away from it years ago...
mna
join:2002-01-29
Reston, VA

mna

Member

No surprise, I am still on PPOE.
batsona
Maryland
join:2004-04-17
Ellicott City, MD

batsona to propcgamer

Member

to propcgamer
propcgamer -- I had more core Cisco switch set for full duplex & 100mbit (it's a 100mbit switch). So when I set the firewall to fit with these settings, that's when DHCP started working.
buckingham: I had a Juniper SRX100 firewall doing PPPoe before this, and my Brocade Vyatta firewall was OK, right up to when they [apparently] switched it off, on Friday at 12midnight.
batsona

batsona

Member

OP Here: My Last post on this topic probably.. Logs indicate that my firewall successfully renews its DHCP IP every 6000 seconds or so. I wanted to make sure my FW could do that successfully, and keep the external interface intact, and all the rules functioning properly. So far so goo....

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

1 recommendation

Mike Wolf to batsona

Member

to batsona
said by batsona:

OP here: VZ then assumes that 101% of all customers are running the Actiontec in its original config, which allows Verizon to re-config remotely? I thought about 40% of customers probably run their own setup w/o Actiontec being the edge network device. These devices will all mysteriously die when Verizon switches off PPPoe. An addendum to my original post -- after examining more syslog, it looks like a duplex mismatch may have hurt DHCP getting an IP. ---with very little, if any traffic on the line, I wouldn't think a mismatch would have that bad an impact....

Well the Actiontec's all support TR-69+ Remote Management so it's fully possible they reconfigured everything remotely.

More Fiber
MVM
join:2005-09-26
Cape Coral, FL

More Fiber

MVM

The Actiontec will auto-detect whether its on a DHCP or PPPoE connection so no remote reconfiguration is necessary.

Since batsona See Profile's primary device was not the Actiontec and his primary device apparently did not auto-detect the type of connection, it would lose it's connection until its profile was changed to DHCP.
mna
join:2002-01-29
Reston, VA

mna

Member

Can the connection be DHCP or PPPoE? If PPPoE is disabled in the Actiontec, will it connect using DHCP?
batsona
Maryland
join:2004-04-17
Ellicott City, MD

batsona to More Fiber

Member

to More Fiber
OP Here: Agreed -- If VZ re-configured their network for DCHP, I was out in the cold after this change; my equipment could not auto-reconfigure for the change to DHCP. I'm a bit surprised that no one else that runs their own equipment posted on here, saying, "Hey, did anyone lose connectivity last nite at midnight..."

I've only ever had my actiontec set up for PPPoe, back when I was using that device on my Edge. I'll defer to to More Fiber in that the Actiontec can be configured to use multiple external protocols, and it will use the one that is auto-detected.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf to More Fiber

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to More Fiber
Ok. I was speaking in general for when the Actiontec is the primary device that Remote Management could be used. Thanks for the insight.
Priteshp52
join:2004-02-14
Newtown, PA

Priteshp52 to batsona

Member

to batsona
I'm still on PPPoE and I have a Cisco RV220W that most likely won't know to reconfigure itself like an Actiontec.

When I tried to have my fiance's FiOS switched from coax to fiber they said they could only do DHCP, not PPPoE.

Pritesh

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf to batsona

Member

to batsona
I'm a little confused again, is there a performance difference between PPPoE and DHCP? I don't think there is. Is there a preference between one over the other?
gadgetboyj
Premium Member
join:2009-08-25
Staten Island, NY

gadgetboyj to Priteshp52

Premium Member

to Priteshp52
said by Priteshp52:

...switched from coax to fiber...

Pritesh

Coax to ethernet?

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf

Member

That's what I'm guessing.

More Fiber
MVM
join:2005-09-26
Cape Coral, FL

1 recommendation

More Fiber to Mike Wolf

MVM

to Mike Wolf
said by Mike Wolf:

I'm a little confused again, is there a performance difference between PPPoE and DHCP? I don't think there is. Is there a preference between one over the other?

The MTU size for a PPPoE packet is 1492, while the MTU size for DHCP is 1500.

For all intents and purposes that 8 byte difference is not noticible, but some people freak out over it.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

1 recommendation

PJL

Member

I think the PPPoE implementation was a transition from the old DSL days, but once Verizon implemented a full FiOS network for its FiOS subscribers, all new users (like myself since October 2007) were placed directly on the network versus a PPPoE implementation which may have been tunneled through something different.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

1 recommendation

Mike Wolf to More Fiber

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to More Fiber
Ok but aside from that? Also is this going to start allowing Verizon to give their customers IPv6?
Priteshp52
join:2004-02-14
Newtown, PA

Priteshp52 to gadgetboyj

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to gadgetboyj
Yeah that's what I meant.
batsona
Maryland
join:2004-04-17
Ellicott City, MD

batsona to Mike Wolf

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to Mike Wolf
Also, behind the scenes.. every machine on your network probably has its MTU set to 1500, but you can only send packets of size 1492 out to Verizon. This forces your router to fragment packets (turn one large packet into a large packet and a small packet) This reduces network performance, although I will admit that it would not be noticeable.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

1 recommendation

Mike Wolf

Member

ah ok. So then there's a good benefit to moving everyone over to DHCP I gather. Excellent. Now hopefully they'll get that done for everyone and start cranking out IPv6. Thanks for the info all.