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digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
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join:2000-07-15
GTA

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digitalfutur to DKS

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Re: [Serious] Michael Zehaf-Bibeau made video....

Still a doubting Thomas I see.
quote:
“The RCMP has identified persuasive evidence that Michael Zehaf-Bibeau’s attack was driven by ideological and political motives,” RCMP Comm. Bob Paulson said in his second update on the Ottawa terrorist attack.

“Zehaf-Bibeau had prepared a video recording of himself just prior to conducting this attack.
Based on that description, s.83 of the Criminal Code has been met regarding terrorism. That definition is the criminal one, not the populist one.
NCRGuy
join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON

NCRGuy

Member

said by digitalfutur:

Still a doubting Thomas I see.

quote:
“The RCMP has identified persuasive evidence that Michael Zehaf-Bibeau’s attack was driven by ideological and political motives,” RCMP Comm. Bob Paulson said in his second update on the Ottawa terrorist attack.

“Zehaf-Bibeau had prepared a video recording of himself just prior to conducting this attack.
Based on that description, s.83 of the Criminal Code has been met regarding terrorism. That definition is the criminal one, not the populist one.

The determination of whether something meets the criminal definitation is up to the courts.

digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
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join:2000-07-15
GTA

digitalfutur

Premium Member

Since the suspect is deceased, that determination will never be met legally. Neither will murder.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

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Re: [Serious] Shots fired at Parliament Hill, Soldier shot

saw this the other day...thought i'd share it.



neochu
join:2008-12-12
Windsor, ON

2 edits

neochu to digitalfutur

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to digitalfutur

Re: [Serious] Michael Zehaf-Bibeau made video....

said by digitalfutur:

Still a doubting Thomas I see.

quote:
“The RCMP has identified persuasive evidence that Michael Zehaf-Bibeau’s attack was driven by ideological and political motives,” RCMP Comm. Bob Paulson said in his second update on the Ottawa terrorist attack.

“Zehaf-Bibeau had prepared a video recording of himself just prior to conducting this attack.
Based on that description, s.83 of the Criminal Code has been met regarding terrorism. That definition is the criminal one, not the populist one.

said by digitalfutur:

Since the suspect is deceased, that determination will never be met legally. Neither will murder.

What this person did is definately murder or manslaugter.

Though like you said without "motivation" or proof of 'conspiracy to perform the act' it could still be NCR depending on due process. Which grade is impossible to tell now.

His actions and thoughts have led to the deliberate and specific killing of an individual for no reason. That we do know.

partially quoting »laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/ ··· tml#h-25 for relevance.
quote:

83.01 (1) The following definitions apply in this Part.

"terrorist activity"

"terrorist activity" means

(a) an act or omission that is committed in or outside Canada and that, if committed in Canada, is one of the following offences:

(iii) the offences referred to in subsection 7(3) that implement the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Crimes against Internationally Protected Persons, including Diplomatic Agents, adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on December 14, 1973,

(b) an act or omission, in or outside Canada,

(i) that is committed

(A) in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause, and

(B) in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act, whether the public or the person, government or organization is inside or outside Canada, and

(ii) that intentionally

(A) causes death or serious bodily harm to a person by the use of violence,

(B) endangers a person's life,

(C) causes a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or any segment of the public,

(D) causes substantial property damage, whether to public or private property, if causing such damage is likely to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C), or

(E) causes serious interference with or serious disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private, other than as a result of advocacy, protest, dissent or stoppage of work that is not intended to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C),

and includes a conspiracy, attempt or threat to commit any such act or omission, or being an accessory after the fact or counselling in relation to any such act or omission, but, for greater certainty, does not include an act or omission that is committed during an armed conflict and that, at the time and in the place of its commission, is in accordance with customary international law or conventional international law applicable to the conflict, or the activities undertaken by military forces of a state in the exercise of their official duties, to the extent that those activities are governed by other rules of international law.

For greater certainty

(1.1) For greater certainty, the expression of a political, religious or ideological thought, belief or opinion does not come within paragraph (b) of the definition "terrorist activity" in subsection (1) unless it constitutes an act or omission that satisfies the criteria of that paragraph.


(last paragraph is huge. As in your public expression has to follow through with belief == cause ==action. )

S 83.01 (1); iii (a) could mean MPs but IMHO attacking a guard to a memorial for the fallen is technically an international war crime. (armed or not).

Terrorist activity == yes.

Act of terrorism == hard to say because they have not found proof in his "expressions" of a desire to perform the specific act he did "other then being denied a passport and going postal on whatever he could".

Unless they can find some physical proof of "pre-planning" its not true terrorism because of the last paragraph. Simply "talking about it" does not constitute an act until you break the law somewhere else in the process.

(aka Treason... »laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/ ··· tml#h-13)

Consider this news article:

»www.msn.com/en-ca/news/w ··· -BBbl1hd

The RCMP are still claiming that his application for a passport to go on a Hajj was a "cover" for joining ISIS. Despite it being a final act for a desperate man (aka new-born christian going to Africa on a mission) per what is in the media.

Zehaf-Bibeau's video may or may not include elements of the so-called "martyrdom path" for 'activity in Syria' as is with buying a hunting rifle to facilitate action against domestic opportunities. (Did he do it specifically because his "last hope of redemption" was dashed or did he change his purpose target).

We may never know because the RCMP is either holding its cards to finally grab one of the Canadian Recruiters (who probably converted Rouleau as well) or we are playing trial by absentea to legitimize social engineering games again (in an attempt to criminalize a religious expression and not the ACTS of said religion -- alongside mental illness).

They should summarize the video they got of him before I believe that all mentally ill people (who are isolated) should be locked up indefinitely before they go postal. As they are all potential terrorists if they convert to "extreme religions".

(Under 'preventative detention.')

horsey
@208.103.232.x

horsey to pulp46

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Re: [Serious] Shots fired at Parliament Hill, Soldier shot

said by pulp46:

So 3 shifts at about 80K a year per officer, 24/7- 365 days a year - plus a police vehicle idling.... about $400 000 anually?

Why don't they let the 2 soldiers who are professionally trained shooters, have loaded rifles which they already carry, and a $20 clip of ammo to protect each other?

No cops do not work 8 hours a day 7 days a weak plus they need to be supervised
cost is one million

they have supervidon

Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
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Apparently the Official Opposition has been demanding extra security, while that position should have security, having your lawyer write a letter to the RCMP and demand they respond near instantaneously is a bit much.

“Should I not receive your written confirmation that the measures we request have been put in place before noon today, we will be obliged to assume that duty and act accordingly, the whole without releasing you whatsoever from your continued responsibility to ensure Mr. Mulcair his family’s security.”

EDIT: I meant to add this is the same guy that circumvented hill security when it was inconvenient: »www.ctvnews.ca/politics/ ··· .1324110

Currently we have a number of part leaders working in parliament, should they also get extra security, how do you draw the line if that party is only a party of one?

Ian1
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join:2002-06-18
ON

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Ian1

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said by Thane_Bitter:

Apparently the Official Opposition has been demanding extra security, while that position should have security, having your lawyer write a letter to the RCMP and demand they respond near instantaneously is a bit much.

I don't think an opposition leader is in any more or less danger than previously, which is to say not much. I think Mulcair just wants a more impressive entourage.....
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

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to Thane_Bitter
said by Thane_Bitter:

Currently we have a number of part leaders working in parliament, should they also get extra security, how do you draw the line if that party is only a party of one?

There's only one official leader of the loyal opposition, he's the one who gets the house at Stornoway.
PX Eliezer1

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to Ian1
said by Ian1:

I don't think an opposition leader is in any more or less danger than previously, which is to say not much. I think Mulcair just wants a more impressive entourage.....

The British prime minister was knocked down by a jogger this morning....

No such thing as perfect protection.

ZZZZZZZ
Premium Member
join:2001-05-27
PARADISE

ZZZZZZZ to dirtyjeffer0

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to dirtyjeffer0
There is a story floating around that the suspect had been shot at least 12 times before Kevin Vickers shot him.

Sorta changes the hero status a little..........not that it matters.

BigSensFan
Premium Member
join:2003-07-16
Belle River, ON

BigSensFan

Premium Member

said by ZZZZZZZ:

There is a story floating around that the suspect had been shot at least 12 times before Kevin Vickers shot him.

Sorta changes the hero status a little..........not that it matters.

How is that possible? He was standing up in an alcove.. Vickers slid at his feet and shot him (emptying his clip). Then the other officers advanced, and shot.
NCRGuy
join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON

NCRGuy

Member

He was shot at by security guards at the entrance before he got down the hallway to the alcove.

Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
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Yes, I am sure he reluctantly moved in.
But if you recall the surprise and uproar a few months back when a drunken teenager wandered into Trudeau's home in the middle of the night, people wanted him to have security and had been surprised that he had none. If left to their own devices every MP would want and demand a security detail provided it didn't come out of their own salary.

BigSensFan
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Belle River, ON

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to NCRGuy
said by NCRGuy:

He was shot at by security guards at the entrance before he got down the hallway to the alcove.

I doubt he was hit 12 times and still standing
NCRGuy
join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON

NCRGuy

Member

And I doubt he got down that hallway without getting shot multiple times.
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to ZZZZZZZ

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said by ZZZZZZZ:

Sorta changes the hero status a little..........not that it matters.

Emphasis on the latter.
PX Eliezer1

PX Eliezer1 to NCRGuy

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to NCRGuy
said by NCRGuy:

He was shot at by security guards at the entrance before he got down the hallway to the alcove.

If he was still walking and advancing, the important thing is that Sergeant-at-Arms Vickers is the person who took him down.

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
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join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav to PX Eliezer1

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to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:

said by Ian1:

I don't think an opposition leader is in any more or less danger than previously, which is to say not much. I think Mulcair just wants a more impressive entourage.....

The British prime minister was knocked down by a jogger this morning....

No such thing as perfect protection.

You can be sure that there is going to be hell to pay for that incident but we will never hear it. The terrorist threat in the UK seems to be far greater based on what I read in the news.

BigSensFan
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Belle River, ON

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to NCRGuy
said by NCRGuy:

And I doubt he got down that hallway without getting shot multiple times.

You assume police can shoot at distance when under pressure. I know someone who does the recerts on cops, and he says most miss the target by a large margin
mr weather
Premium Member
join:2002-02-27
Mississauga, ON

mr weather to PX Eliezer1

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to PX Eliezer1
said by PX Eliezer1:

said by NCRGuy:

He was shot at by security guards at the entrance before he got down the hallway to the alcove.

If he was still walking and advancing, the important thing is that Sergeant-at-Arms Vickers is the person who took him down.

He may have been shot "at" but not necessarily hit that many times.

I also heard a rumour that he was wearing body armour. But I don't think that story went anywhere.
NCRGuy
join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON

NCRGuy to BigSensFan

Member

to BigSensFan
said by BigSensFan:

said by NCRGuy:

And I doubt he got down that hallway without getting shot multiple times.

You assume police can shoot at distance when under pressure. I know someone who does the recerts on cops, and he says most miss the target by a large margin

Who said anything about distance. He exchanged gunfire with security at the entrance while he was himself at the entrance. I'm not talking about people trying to hit him from down the hall.

neochu
join:2008-12-12
Windsor, ON

neochu

Member

said by NCRGuy:

said by BigSensFan:

said by NCRGuy:

And I doubt he got down that hallway without getting shot multiple times.

You assume police can shoot at distance when under pressure. I know someone who does the recerts on cops, and he says most miss the target by a large margin

Who said anything about distance. He exchanged gunfire with security at the entrance while he was himself at the entrance. I'm not talking about people trying to hit him from down the hall.

Could also be suppression fire where 3 or 4 security personnel shoot until the suspect goes down (or they run out of bullets). Its prevalent to do so when you want to stop a 'combatant' from encroaching on an area.

(ala wall of bullets and not a single round)

The bullets that killed him could have been anyone's but there are alot of holes from the rounds that were fired.

Its akin to walking into a firing squad and IMHO like people said a "double tap" would have saved a few priceless stained glass windows.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

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dirtyjeffer0 to BigSensFan

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to BigSensFan
said by BigSensFan:

said by NCRGuy:

He was shot at by security guards at the entrance before he got down the hallway to the alcove.

I doubt he was hit 12 times and still standing

i don't at all.

as we've debated in numerous threads before, this isn't a video game, where you drop with one bullet...it is quite possible he was hit 12 times and still standing...it actually happens quite often as it really depends on where the bullets hit that determines if the person drops and when...this is precisely why officers are trained to empty their magazine if it comes to firing their weapon.

ZZZZZZZ
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join:2001-05-27
PARADISE

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Son of Cpl. Cirillo honours father with puck drop

»www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/ ··· ck-drop/

shaner
Premium Member
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

shaner to dirtyjeffer0

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to dirtyjeffer0

Re: [Serious] Shots fired at Parliament Hill, Soldier shot

Heh...that's awesome. I'm stealing it.
said by dirtyjeffer0:

saw this the other day...thought i'd share it.


corster
Premium Member
join:2002-02-23
Oshawa, ON

corster to DKS

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to DKS
said by DKS:

said by PX Eliezer1:

It's Federal property [under the jurisdiction of Veterans Affairs Canada, I believe] and perhaps the RCMP should be providing security. Indeed, in a more fundamental way isn't it property of the whole country?

RCMP says this:

RCMP National Division Protective Services will focus its expertise on providing protective services to Canadian dignitaries domestically and internationally, and to foreign diplomats/dignitaries when in the National Capital Region (NCR). As well, it will provide security for designated federal properties within the NCR.

»www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ottaw ··· -eng.htm

Seems to match their mission.

No. The RCMP only has limited jurisdiction. The OPS polices the surrounding streets and lands.

Not quite true. Confederation Square (the site of the War Memorial) is operated by the National Capital Commission so it wouldn't take much to have it designated as a federal property under RCMP protection, most NCC parks and parkways across Ottawa are already patrolled by the RCMP.
NCRGuy
join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON

NCRGuy

Member

Just because the NCC maintains it doesn't mean the RCMP have, or could have, jurisdiction.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

RCMP, House security radios on different frequencies

The security forces protecting Parliament must be better integrated, Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney said Monday....

In question period Monday, Blaney said, "the silos we have today are not adequate. Security inside Parliament must be integrated with outside security forces."

CBC News has learned those security forces can't even speak to each other by radio because their radios use different frequencies.

The RCMP is responsible for security on the grounds of Parliament Hill, while the House of Commons and Senate each have separate protective services.

The House of Commons has its own security cameras inside the Centre Block that are monitored 24 hours a day, seven days a week from the communications centre in the Confederation building, just west of Parliament Hill.

But surveillance cameras on the perimeter and outside areas of Parliament Hill are RCMP cameras and are monitored separately by the Mounties at another location.

The Senate and House command centres can monitor the RCMP frequency but would have to speak by phone to communicate directly, slowing down crucial communications during emergencies....

Uniformed RCMP officers also have to turn in their service weapons when they enter the Centre Block of Parliament Hill.

It may not be possible for the RCMP to take over security on the Hill, however — parliamentary privilege dictates a separate police force for the buildings on the Hill because it exists in a legal netherworld. Parliament is its own separate and sovereign jurisdiction.....

The question of who is responsible for the security of Parliamentary roofs also remained unresolved....

»www.cbc.ca/news/politics ··· .2814315

A recipe for problems....

At least figure out who covers the roof.

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

1 edit

Anav

Premium Member

Oh come now the armchair experts have been saying the security is in great shape on the hill. Whereas I likened it to keystone cops. As stated its a freebie wake up call. I expect major changes, and not ones that will be necessarily visible - Including lining closets with armour and comfee chairs

edit: (strictly speaking about parliament grounds and inside, not monuments).