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Mark
I stand with my feet
join:2009-07-11
Canada

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Re: [Serious] Shots fired at Parliament Hill, Soldier shot

Freebie wake up call...and truer words have never been written!

Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
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join:2005-01-20

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Ah yes giant panic rooms with a well stocked bar and buffet, a place where the first order of the day is ordering lunch.
IamGimli (banned)
join:2004-02-28
Canada

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said by BigSensFan:

You assume police can shoot at distance when under pressure. I know someone who does the recerts on cops, and he says most miss the target by a large margin

Absolute BS. They may miss the bullseye but missing the target results in an immediate failure of the certification and immediate orders for retraining, except in one of the courses of action (shooting while in movement), where one bullet off-target is tolerated.

They're not all marksmen but they're not as unskilled as you paint them to be either.

And I've actually participated in certification drills.
IamGimli

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said by Anav:

Oh come now the armchair experts have been saying the security is in great shape on the hill. Whereas I likened it to keystone cops. As stated its a freebie wake up call. I expect major changes, and not ones that will be necessarily visible - Including lining closets with armour and comfee chairs

I don't consider the death of a Canadian service man a "freebie" under any reasonable interpretation of the word.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

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said by IamGimli:

Absolute BS. They may miss the bullseye but missing the target results in an immediate failure of the certification and immediate orders for retraining, except in one of the courses of action (shooting while in movement), where one bullet off-target is tolerated.

They're not all marksmen but they're not as unskilled as you paint them to be either.

And I've actually participated in certification drills.

There was no BS to his statement at all. Certification requirements vary from organization to organization and while you may have participated in certification for one organization does not mean that the standards you observed are universal, especially among law enforcement agencies.

And based on my own experience with people who are employed with law enforcement agency and undergo firearm certification, your claim about missing the target once being an automatic failure is certainly bullshit - that is, based on the experience I have with one organization. Your experience may differ, but it is most certainly not universal.

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

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said by IamGimli:

said by Anav:

Oh come now the armchair experts have been saying the security is in great shape on the hill. Whereas I likened it to keystone cops. As stated its a freebie wake up call. I expect major changes, and not ones that will be necessarily visible - Including lining closets with armour and comfee chairs

I don't consider the death of a Canadian service man a "freebie" under any reasonable interpretation of the word.

IamGimli I had edited out of my post something to that effect (excluding events at the memorial - now put back in) but my post was strictly aimed at events on the grounds and in parliament. My apologies if I wasnt clear enough.
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

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said by Gone:

Certification requirements vary from organization to organization and while you may have participated in certification for one organization does not mean that the standards you observed are universal, especially among law enforcement agencies.

And in fact....

Empire State Building shooting victim says NYPD fired 'randomly' into street

Officers injured nine bystanders as they pursued gunman Jeffrey Johnson, who appeared to have just one intended target

Questions have been raised over the New York police department's handling of a shooting near the Empire State Building after armed officers injured nine (9) passers-by as they pursued a gunman who had just shot dead his former boss.

One of those injured by police told the Guardian that officers appeared to fire "randomly" as they confronted Jeffrey Johnson, 58, minutes after a workplace dispute escalated into a chaotic shootout in one of the busiest parts of Manhattan.

Reports suggest that while Johnson drew his gun when he was confronted by officers, he did not fire; all those injured appear to have been shot by police.

»www.theguardian.com/worl ··· response

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
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Dartmouth, NS

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said by PX Eliezer1:

said by Ian1:

I don't think an opposition leader is in any more or less danger than previously, which is to say not much. I think Mulcair just wants a more impressive entourage.....

The British prime minister was knocked down by a jogger this morning....

No such thing as perfect protection.

I had a look at that video. Piss poor protection to let the person bang into the PM. But what is worse is that immediately after the PM is left completely alone. Its a double whammy of serious lapses.
IamGimli (banned)
join:2004-02-28
Canada

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said by Anav:

IamGimli I had edited out of my post something to that effect (excluding events at the memorial - now put back in) but my post was strictly aimed at events on the grounds and in parliament. My apologies if I wasnt clear enough.

Thank you.
said by Gone:

There was no BS to his statement at all. Certification requirements vary from organization to organization and while you may have participated in certification for one organization does not mean that the standards you observed are universal, especially among law enforcement agencies.

True but my experience is with the organization which was involved in this shootout. As a matter of fact, the kill shot (forehead) is a fairly recent addition to the policy of dealing with such active shooter situations for that organization. While other officers provide cover fire/centre of mass targeting some will actively try to aim for the head. This change in policy was brought on by the increased use of body armour in criminals (especially terrorists).
said by PX Eliezer1:

And in fact....

Certification does not mean they can never miss once they are confronted with an actual shooting situation. While certification courses of action attempt to simulate a majority of operational situations a lot of factors cannot really be simulated, the most important of which being adrenaline levels.

Certification doesn't guarantee good operational performance, just as poor operational performance doesn't necessarily mean poor skills.

Generally good certifications and training results in better operational performance. Just as in every other statistical fields there are outliers. Exceptions do not a rule make.

As my grandpa used to say, if you want a guarantee, buy a toaster.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

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said by IamGimli:

True but my experience is with the organization which was involved in this shootout. As a matter of fact, the kill shot (forehead) is a fairly recent addition to the policy of dealing with such active shooter situations for that organization. While other officers provide cover fire/centre of mass targeting some will actively try to aim for the head. This change in policy was brought on by the increased use of body armour in criminals (especially terrorists).

There were two (or three, depending on how you want to define things) organizations involved in that shootout, not just one. And even so, I would remind you that just because your experience is limited to just one organization does not mean that anything BigSensFan expressed was "bullshit" - if anything, it is pretty consistent with my own experience.

ZZZZZZZ
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join:2001-05-27
PARADISE

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Images from the funeral

»o.canada.com/news/photos ··· l-536129
MichelR
join:2011-07-03
Trois-Rivieres, QC

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Re: [Serious] Shots fired at Parliament Hill, Soldier shot

I was at the Convention Centre most of the day, and after I stopped by the War Memorial. Amazing the number of flowers (and other things) that surround it. The two ceremonial guards were above to be relieved when we left. There were two Ottawa police officers on each side (out of the way) packing some serious hardware.

Inaccurate
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Anon

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said by IamGimli:

Certification does not mean they can never miss once they are confronted with an actual shooting situation. While certification courses of action attempt to simulate a majority of operational situations a lot of factors cannot really be simulated, the most important of which being adrenaline levels.

Certification doesn't guarantee good operational performance, just as poor operational performance doesn't necessarily mean poor skills.

Shooting accuracy over 10 ft away is abysmal with a pistol carried by police. That is why police are trained not to shoot unless their lives are in danger and also why they are trained to keep shooting until the target drops. That causes all kinds of lawsuits by victims families when a perp is shot 15 times. Oh, why did they shoot him so many times, they say. Well the above is why.

»nation.time.com/2013/09/ ··· tanders/

According to a 2008 RAND Corporation study evaluating the New York Police Department’s firearm training, between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate during gunfights was just 18 percent. When suspects did not return fire, police officers hit their targets 30 percent of the time.

Amanda Ripley looked what happens in the brain and body when shots are fired. The brain stem sends out signals that cause blood vessels to constrict and hormones to surge. Studies have shown that eyesight becomes narrower (literally tunnel vision) under such conditions. People who have been in gunfights describe hearing very little and perceieve time slowing down. Amid this chaos, as police officers have to make difficult, split-second decisions, humans can lose motor skills as the body reverts to basic fight or flight instincts. Overcoming those natural reactions is the goal of rigorous training.

IamGimli (banned)
join:2004-02-28
Canada

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said by Gone:

There were two (or three, depending on how you want to define things) organizations involved in that shootout, not just one. And even so, I would remind you that just because your experience is limited to just one organization does not mean that anything BigSensFan expressed was "bullshit" - if anything, it is pretty consistent with my own experience.

He mentioned police. There was only one police organization involved.
said by Anonymous88:

Shooting accuracy over 10 ft away is abysmal with a pistol carried by police. That is why police are trained not to shoot unless their lives are in danger and also why they are trained to keep shooting until the target drops. That causes all kinds of lawsuits by victims families when a perp is shot 15 times. Oh, why did they shoot him so many times, they say. Well the above is why.

Pistols are useless for long-range shooting for everyone, not just police. Your movie watching experience may differ but real life isn't a movie. That is also why the five courses of fire for qualifications are done at distances of 3m, 5m, 7m, 15m and 25m, the 25m being done from a stationary position behind a stationary barricade.

Police aren't "trained not to shoot unless their lives are in danger", they're trained in the use of force continuum. They're also not "trained to keep shooting until the target drops" but rather until the threat is no longer a threat. Just because a "target drops" doesn't mean it's no longer a threat.

As for such lawsuits you're talking about American cases, where lawsuits mean absolutely f-all.

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
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join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav

Premium Member

In addition many of the pistols have a very heavy trigger which does not help accuracy of shooting.
IamGimli (banned)
join:2004-02-28
Canada

IamGimli (banned)

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said by Anav:

In addition many of the pistols have a very heavy trigger which does not help accuracy of shooting.

Exactly. The S&W 5946 used by the organization I'm personally familiar with has a 12 lbs trigger setting that's not user-adjustable, which is quite heavy compared to regular, non-law enforcement models of similar firearms which have 4-5 lbs trigger settings from the factory that can generally be adjusted to 1-2 lbs for competition use.

The reason for the heavy trigger setting is to avoid accidental discharges such as happened to Anthony Griffin in Montreal back in 1987 and is a direct result of that incident. The SA/DA revolvers in use at the time, once cocked, only required about 3 lbs of pull to discharge. The result of reviews conducted after the death of Mr. Griffin saw most police forces switch to DA-only firearms with considerably heavier trigger setting.

Kardinal
Dei Gratina Regina
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join:2001-02-04
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Leaving the handgun discussion behind and returning to the thread topic.....




I really wish the media would spend a bit more time on Const. Samearn Son, the unarmed guard at the entry door under the Peace Tower who tried to wrestle the rifle from the gunman while shouting "GUN GUN GUN" to alert others of the danger, and who got shot in the leg.
NCRGuy
join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON

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said by Kardinal:

I really wish the media would spend a bit more time on Const. Samearn Son, the unarmed guard at the entry door under the Peace Tower who tried to wrestle the rifle from the gunman while shouting "GUN GUN GUN" to alert others of the danger, and who got shot in the leg.

This.
PX Eliezer1
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Zubrowka USA

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Sergeant-at-Arms Vickers himself had released this statement last Thursday:

I am very touched by the attention directed at me following yesterday’s events. However, I have the support of a remarkable security team that is committed to ensuring the safety of Members, employees and visitors to the Hill. Yesterday, during extraordinary circumstances, security personnel demonstrated professionalism and courage. I am grateful and proud to be part of this team.

House of Commons Security Services also maintains a close working relationship with its security partners, including Senate Security, the RCMP and the Ottawa Police. This close collaboration made it possible to pull together and quickly restore order in the Parliamentary Precinct and throughout the downtown core.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the Speaker, the Hon. Andrew Scheer, for his leadership and calm demeanour throughout.

On behalf of all members of the House of Commons Security Services team, I would like to extend our deepest condolences to the family of Cpl. Nathan Cirillo. Our prayers are with you. Our thoughts are also with Constable Samearn Son, who has been with the House of Commons Security Services for 10 years. Constable Son suffered a gun shot wound to the leg. He is in stable condition and expected to make a full recovery.

As this is an ongoing investigation, I unfortunately cannot comment any further at this time, nor can any member of my Security Services team.

»ottawacitizen.com/news/p ··· -vickers
vue666 (banned)
Let's make Canchat better!!!
join:2007-12-07

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This photo says it all to me... So very sad...

»www.thestar.com/news/can ··· dad.html

corster
Premium Member
join:2002-02-23
Oshawa, ON

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said by NCRGuy:

Just because the NCC maintains it doesn't mean the RCMP have, or could have, jurisdiction.

Not without designation, anyways.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
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join:2009-06-17

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said by Anav:

said by PX Eliezer1:

said by Ian1:

I don't think an opposition leader is in any more or less danger than previously, which is to say not much. I think Mulcair just wants a more impressive entourage.....

The British prime minister was knocked down by a jogger this morning....

No such thing as perfect protection.

I had a look at that video. Piss poor protection to let the person bang into the PM. But what is worse is that immediately after the PM is left completely alone. Its a double whammy of serious lapses.

They better check him for the ricin or polonium pellet.

Kardinal
Dei Gratina Regina
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join:2001-02-04
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Happy to see Bruce MacKinnon from the Halifax Chronicle Herald has won an NNA2015 award for political cartoons for this one (that I posted upthread):