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RobThompson
Caution - VoIP Challenged Alert
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join:2012-02-14
J8G 0C9

RobThompson

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[General] Do all "Copper Wire" telephone companies us VoIP in their systems

Hello:

I was wondering if the traditional POTS compnaies, like Bell Canada, actually utilize VoIP somewhere in their telephone systems?

Said another way, when I make calls on my Bell Canada POTS line, is VoIP used by Bell Canada at any point, to complete my call and I wouldn't even know about it?

Thanks,
fparker
join:2008-04-28
Scarborough, ON

fparker

Member

I don't know about 'all', but Primus Canada does; I suspect the Cable providers all do as well.

mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON

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Yes and yes ... due to the very heavy investment they have in their POTS infrastructure plus regulatory agreements their transition to 100% IP network will be completed by 2030.
Stewart
join:2005-07-13

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Re: [General] Do all "Copper Wire" telephone companies us VoIP in their systems

An intraoffice call on Bell, AT&T, Verizon, etc. does not involve VoIP. Interoffice calls to a destination served by the same company are normally TDM, but in failure or overcapacity situations, VoIP fallback is common.

You can tell a VoIP call by the added delay; 30 ms in each direction is the bare minimum. You can test this on a local call by having your contact play an analog AM or FM radio into the phone. Tune your radio to the same station and listen to the combined sound from radio and phone.
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

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PX Eliezer1 to RobThompson

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I think the transition is a bit slower in Canada, but it is well underway in the US.

I know at least one engineer for a major US telco who tells me that IP is a very major push now for the whole company.

See also:
»www.fiercetelecom.com/st ··· 14-06-23
»www.infoworld.com/articl ··· rks.html

But there are downsides:
»www.techdirt.com/article ··· ve.shtml
VoIP2Go
join:2013-12-14

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Re: [General] Do all "Copper Wire" telephone companies us VoIP in their systems

said by RobThompson:

I was wondering if the traditional POTS compnaies, like Bell Canada, actually utilize VoIP somewhere in their telephone systems?

As you know Rob, I have worked closely with the alarm monitoring industry for many years and they are wondering exactly the same thing. Failed alarm calls have been rising steadily for a few years now and it is clear that the transition to IP is well underway. The problem is - none of the Telco's advise you up front that they are doing it, or going to do it some time soon. It's not really a problem when you make regular voice calls, but it is a problem for devices that send and receive data.

The alarm monitoring industry have taken the 'head in the sand' approach hoping the problem might go away. I think we can be pretty sure it's only going to get worse.

brg
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join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL

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Re: [General] Do all "Copper Wire" telephone companies us VoIP in their systems

Stewart states it pretty clearly above, but make sure you understand the difference between "VoIP" and "Digital Telephony."

The VoIP that we all use takes our packetized data (always analog to start whether originated via, for example, a traditional phone connected to an ATA, or an IP phone [and even that does an a-to-d conversion from your mouth to the microphone to the device]) and routes it via the Public Internet.

The Digital Telephony engaged in between "toll switches" (are they still called Class 5 switches?) is digital traffic, but it is over massive private digital lines (you've heard of T1 which is subscriber-size and grade. From there it goes up to DS3, OC 3, OC 12, OC 48, OC 192...) This ain't "IP" -- certainly not PUBLIC IP. This traffic is essentially packetized and muxed circuit-switched traffic.

When the telcos move to something like Uverse at the subscriber end (in the case of AT&T) then, yes, that's VoIP.
JeanInNepean
join:2012-09-19
Grenoble, FR

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As brg said, it's all digital nowadays. Analog switches are too expensive.
carlm
join:2014-09-29
united state

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I was wondering about public Internet vs. private IP -- thanks.
Do you or does anyone else know which (public/private) the cable companies are using for their VoIP phone service offerings?

brg
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join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL

brg

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said by carlm:

Do you or does anyone else know which (public/private) the cable companies are using for their phone service offerings?

For my part, I dunno; my background was Bell Telco and when I left the Cable Companies had not yet really come into the fore in terms of competitive telecom offerings. In fact, when I was paying attention to things, the Cable Companies obtained backhaul/transit from the telcos (and in many cases simply resold the telco copper offerings!)
JeanInNepean
join:2012-09-19
Grenoble, FR

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Cable companies, by definition, cannot offer an analog phone line, unless they resell local phone service via copper wires. Since the cable is shared with hundreds of neighbours, multiplexing analog signals is expensive, inefficient and insecure.
fparker
join:2008-04-28
Scarborough, ON

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Rogers Cable in Canada uses private network for their (non-nomadic) VoIP service.
carlm
join:2014-09-29
united state

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To clarify I just added the word 'VoIP' to my question. I realize that cable companies don't have their own POTS "last mile". In the US Comcast and Time Warner Cable offer VoIP phone service. I assume that most major cable companies do the same.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
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Re: [General] Do all "Copper Wire" telephone companies us VoIP in their systems

There are a lot of companies deploying Adtran TA5000s and other gear for this. They are using them just like you would use an ATA or IAD except there are many more FXO ports and the distance from the ATA to the phone is much farther.
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Re: [General] Do all "Copper Wire" telephone companies us VoIP in their systems

A lot of the time the softswitch that's handling the calls are often in another part of the region a few hundred miles away where TDM calls are switched locally in the CO.
battleop

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Re: [General] Do all "Copper Wire" telephone companies us VoIP in their systems

"The alarm monitoring industry have taken the 'head in the sand' approach hoping the problem might go away."

This drives me freaking crazy. I can make about 50% of alarms work behind an Adtran TA900. I have an almost 100% success rate with alarms that are monitored by local companies but the ones that are monitored by companies like ADT almost never work. I've had vendor meets with companies like ADT and they don't have their head in the sand, it's up their ass. They think that because they are ADT that the entire industry is going to have to bend to them.

The large copier / fax companies are the same way. I can make 99% of all fax machines work using t38 with a very high success rate (if you follow the rules) but the large super expensive machines are the ones that are the most difficult to work. According to the lead programmer for our switch the problem is that the big boys try and bend the rules slightly and that creates havoc on faxes.
battleop

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Re: [General] Do all "Copper Wire" telephone companies us VoIP in their systems

Class 5 has morphed into to the same as "Carrier Grade" which is more marketing speak for "It's more expensive".

arpawocky
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join:2014-04-13
Columbus, OH

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Re: [General] Do all "Copper Wire" telephone companies us VoIP in their systems

said by battleop:

I have an almost 100% success rate with alarms that are monitored by local companies but the ones that are monitored by companies like ADT almost never work. I've had vendor meets with companies like ADT and they don't have their head in the sand, it's up their ass.

Maybe if ADT would spend less of their efforts on telemarketing and more of their efforts on R&D, they would not have this problem. Totally agree that ADT has their heads up their rectums.

bthornhill
join:2004-05-10

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ADT doesn't really have R&D for their monitoring, they just use MLR-2000 receivers from SurGard AFAIK.
VoIP2Go
join:2013-12-14

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said by arpawocky:

Maybe if ADT would spend less of their efforts on telemarketing and more of their efforts on R&D, they would not have this problem

I don't think they see it as a problem, more of an opportunity to rip extra cash from their Customers (who are locked into contracts) by switching them to cellular.

The vast majority of my Customers have ADT alarm systems. That's the only reason they come to me as my VoIP network was designed primarily for alarm systems.

I get my Customers to purchase an SPA112 or Obihai ATA and I custom provision it. They get to cancel their POTS line and use their Internet connection for sending alarms to ADT. Once they are out of contract, they can easily switch to any other monitoring service for a fraction of the cost.
giqcass
join:2014-03-10

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Re: [General] Do all "Copper Wire" telephone companies us VoIP in their systems

said by JeanInNepean:

Cable companies, by definition, cannot offer an analog phone line, unless they resell local phone service via copper wires. Since the cable is shared with hundreds of neighbours, multiplexing analog signals is expensive, inefficient and insecure.

There are exceptions to that rule. In rural areas like mine the cable company is the phone company. Things are digital now but they provided phones well before they provided cable and they continue to offer the old fashioned and very expensive copper POTs service. Of course once the traffic leaves their physical network who knows how it might travel from there.
said by mozerd:

Yes and yes ... due to the very heavy investment they have in their POTS infrastructure plus regulatory agreements their transition to 100% IP network will be completed by 2030.

The FCC here in the US has finally allowed testing in certain areas of pure VOIP with no old school copper.
»consumerist.com/2014/01/ ··· ndlines/
Ole Juul
join:2013-04-27
Princeton, BC

Ole Juul

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said by giqcass:

In rural areas like mine the cable company is the phone company. Things are digital now but they provided phones well before they provided cable and they continue to offer the old fashioned and very expensive copper POTs service.

How can they offer copper POTs over cable? Or do you mean they are a cable company which also runs copper lines? As I read it, JeanInNepal was talking about cable for telephone service.
Ole Juul

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said by giqcass:

The FCC here in the US has finally allowed testing in certain areas of pure VOIP with no old school copper.

Interesting. It was over 10 years ago when a friend of mine moved into a new house (in an urban area) and got VoIP specifically because the POTS was not becoming available and he needed to have a phone at home. I wonder what the FCC is talking about. Surely in the US, like here, VoIP has already been the only choice in some new developments. Or are the US Telcos really speedy and on the ball - willingly installing phone lines when customers snap their fingers? Perhaps not.
giqcass
join:2014-03-10

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said by Ole Juul:

How can they offer copper POTs over cable? Or do you mean they are a cable company which also runs copper lines? As I read it, JeanInNepal was talking about cable for telephone service.

They started as a phone company exclusively. When they began running cable there was no reason to tear out the existing copper. There would have been a lot of up front cost for them to introduce a VOIP service and they would be competing against themselves. In addition due to some current FCC rules it may have become a legal issue if they stopped maintaining the copper lines.
giqcass

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said by Ole Juul:

Interesting. It was over 10 years ago when a friend of mine moved into a new house (in an urban area) and got VoIP specifically because the POTS was not becoming available and he needed to have a phone at home. I wonder what the FCC is talking about. Surely in the US, like here, VoIP has already been the only choice in some new developments. Or are the US Telcos really speedy and on the ball - willingly installing phone lines when customers snap their fingers? Perhaps not.

Based on what I have read(IANAL) they must maintain the existing POTs service. There is nothing that forces them to expand it however. If an area never had POTs available it's up to them as to whether they want to provide it. This has been a big argument for years.

Check this out.
»forums.verizon.com/t5/Hi ··· p/661469
PX Eliezer1
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join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

said by giqcass:

Based on what I have read(IANAL) they must maintain the existing POTs service. There is nothing that forces them to expand it however. If an area never had POTs available it's up to them as to whether they want to provide it.

Basically true I believe but there are also state-level issues.

A related issue, in some coastal areas of New York and New Jersey where there was extensive damage to the copper lines from 'Hurricane' Sandy, Verizon wanted to force all those customers onto fixed wireless for their houses instead. AFAIK New York has been more aggressive fighting this than New Jersey.
giqcass
join:2014-03-10

giqcass

Member

said by PX Eliezer1:

A related issue, in some coastal areas of New York and New Jersey where there was extensive damage to the copper lines from 'Hurricane' Sandy, Verizon wanted to force all those customers onto fixed wireless for their houses instead. AFAIK New York has been more aggressive fighting this than New Jersey.

That was in one of the articles I read. That is complete @&$& trying to make people use a service like that. It does not even support any way to make a data connection. Many alarms, medical monitoring devices, faxes, door entry comms, ect won't function correctly with that type of setup. If they are lucky they can reduce the baud rate but often that isn't even an option.
PX Eliezer1
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Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1

Premium Member

Exactly.
steve1111
join:2009-09-23
Albany, NY

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said by PX Eliezer1:

in some coastal areas of New York and New Jersey where there was extensive damage to the copper lines from 'Hurricane' Sandy

And shortly afterwards they (they = Verizon line rented by RCN) disconnected my POTS copper wire phone and substituted Home Digital Phone.