pandora Premium Member join:2001-06-01 Outland |
pandora
Premium Member
2014-Nov-21 7:20 am
[Green Tech] A strange thing happened to my hot water heater ...My hot water heater is a GE Geospring. It has a heat pump to assist in heating water or in keeping heated water hot. It also has traditional heating elements found in all electric hot water heaters.
There are several modes of operation, the one we used for a number of years was hybrid. This seems to use resistive electric (normal electric hot water heating) and heat pump hot water heating together. Mostly imo it seemed to use the heat pump to keep hot water hot once it was electrically heated.
Our unit is out of warranty and one of the heating elements failed. We called and got service, but replacing the element didn't fix our problem.
While waiting for repair, I set the unit to heat pump only mode. Surprisingly, while not perfect, it has been creating sufficient hot water for a family of 5 over about a month now. Creating hot water solely via heat pump (no resistive hot water, as an error occurs which causes the unit to beep and no hot water to be produced).
I'm still negotiating with the repair company to see if they will at least credit my payment toward a new device purchase (the repair was done by a box store service department). If I can't replace my approximately 2 year old unit, my intention is to see how long and well the heat pump only solution works. I've been a bit surprised that it has been at all useful.
At 240 volts, it's drawing about 3 amps in heat pump, but over longer periods than when using resistive heat only, much longer periods. I'm uncertain how much money or electricity this will save (if any).
Has anyone had similar experiences with these units? |
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enon
Anon
2014-Nov-21 8:27 am
There's way too many variables to answer your question. The amount of energy consumed and the ability to keep up in heat pump-only mode will depend on factors such as your usage patterns, incoming water temperature, ambient room temperature where the unit is installed, etc.
The better questions to ask: why are you ready to give up on repairing the unit? Have you considered hiring a reputable appliance repair outfit rather than the "big box" doofuses? Why did you even pay the first service tech if they didn't perform the task they were contracted to do? |
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pandora Premium Member join:2001-06-01 Outland |
pandora
Premium Member
2014-Nov-21 8:39 am
The error code indicated a failed heating coil, the repair person ordered it, and later replaced it. I can't hold it against a repair person if the code indicated didn't resolve the problem. If anything GE's codes are wrong, or the controller is somehow messed up. The unit costs $800 to replace, and a bit under $200 to get serviced.
Assuming 1 or 2 additional services, and my cost will be close to half to three quarters of a new unit.
Should I order repairs 5 times and exceed the cost of a new unit?? |
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1 recommendation |
cowboyro
Premium Member
2014-Nov-21 8:53 am
You paid and they didn't fix - you should withhold the payment until it's fixed. It doesn't matter that the fix they tried didn't work, it's their problem - you're paying to have it fixed, not for them to try. And yes, I'd hold it against the repair person, if anything they should be sending people who are better trained and don't close a case until it's resolved to customer's satisfaction. |
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pandora Premium Member join:2001-06-01 Outland |
pandora
Premium Member
2014-Nov-21 9:08 am
Maybe I don't have the fight in me that you do. When someone seems to be professionally performing labor, I believe they are entitled to compensation not argument. Failure to pay could also cause other issues later. I'd prefer to avoid surprises on credit scores, or being blacklisted from future service calls. |
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2 recommendations |
to pandora
Be useful to try and troubleshoot the unit yourself.
First step turn off power and see if the new heating element has continuity. If you know the wattage easy to calculate what the resistance should be. But in any case just a few ohms.
If that checks out then I assume there is some form of SSR to control the element. That is probably the fault. Impossible to tell how smart the built in test is, in order to uniquely identify the SSR or element it needs to measure voltage and current, or perhaps voltage and water temperate change. Basically the self test needs some way to tell if power to the heating element is turned on and whether or not the element is actually heating the water.
If there is a non-heat pump mode, resistive element only. Be interesting to see what happens in that mode. In that mode you should be able to measure voltage at the heating element when the unit is heating the water. Sounds like there are dual elements so that gets a little tricky. In a standard heater the bottom element does most of the heating. Because electric heater have such slow recovery if water in the top of the tank gets too cold the upper heater is switched on and the lower one turned off.
/tom |
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SparkChaser Premium Member join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA |
Exactly, Tom. if the test says no current to the element is a bad element, it's missing all the control circuitry. |
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harald join:2010-10-22 Columbus, OH 1 edit |
to pandora
You don't post your location, which makes it hard to deal with heat pump issues and answer your question.
Edit: Sorry, I see it draws it's heat from the inside of the house. How do you heat your house? If electric this unit is eating your lunch. Oil or gas, only eating your dessert.
Try calling GE - 800 626 2000 This unit has a ten-year limited warranty. |
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jrs8084 Premium Member join:2002-03-02 Statesville, NC |
to pandora
Well, I don't think anybody said you had to be a jerk about calling them back. You paid for something you didn't get, and politely explain that. Starting out sweet usually has better results than starting out an *ss. Diagnostic codes are merely tools to assist-they don't provide solutions nor give an immediate answer as to how to solve the problem. Now I wasn't there in your specific case, so I don't know if the repair attempt was incompetence, or one of those situations where you simply can't guarantee a fix on the first round. Unfortunately, those situations do exist (well, unless you R&R everything the first time). This unit sounds rather new to be having problems-especially a failed heating element for a part that normally isn't used during HP mode. Even if out of warranty, I would still contact GE to see what they have to say. If they are trying to gain traction with HPs being a reliable form of heating water, they might work with you. Contact them as harald suggested. |
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to pandora
said by pandora:Maybe I don't have the fight in me that you do. When someone seems to be professionally performing labor, I believe they are entitled to compensation not argument. Failure to pay could also cause other issues later. I'd prefer to avoid surprises on credit scores, or being blacklisted from future service calls. If the problem isn't fixed they didn't do their job. You're telling us if you ordered a meat lovers pizza and a cheese pizza arrived you still pay them for the meat lovers then take the cheese pizza and be happy? Heck no you paid for X and got Y. Withhold payment until you get what your paid for. They can't do anything to your credit in this case. |
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Boooost to pandora
Anon
2014-Nov-21 3:44 pm
to pandora
If it's only 2 years old, why didn't you call GE for warranty service? |
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Boooost |
Boooost
Anon
2014-Nov-21 3:46 pm
Soory. Don't know how I thought it was only 2 years old. NVM. |
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Boooost |
Boooost to pandora
Anon
2014-Nov-21 3:49 pm
to pandora
said by pandora:If I can't replace my approximately 2 year old unit, Wait, so it is 2 years old? So why do you say it's out of warranty? |
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The current line of GeoSpring heaters have a 10yr parts warranty and 1-yr labor warranty. Maybe contact GE support and see what they can do for you. You might be able to get free parts if you can test and show it's either the elements or the control board. » www.geappliances.com/ser ··· contact/ |
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TheMG Premium Member join:2007-09-04 Canada MikroTik RB450G Cisco DPC3008 Cisco SPA112
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to pandora
Sounds like a control board problem or faulty contactor/SSR (if separate from control board).
Using a voltmeter it should be possible to check if you get any voltage at the heating element when it attempts to fire it.
Very likely the control board senses current to determine if the heating element is working. If no current is getting to the element due to a fault in that part of the controls, you'd get an error saying the element is bad, though that's not necessarily the case.
Any experienced service personnel should know that error codes don't always point to the exact cause of failure, or can be misleading. |
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Doctor OldsI Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me. Premium Member join:2001-04-19 1970 442 W30 |
to pandora
said by pandora:Maybe I don't have the fight in me that you do. When someone seems to be professionally performing labor, I believe they are entitled to compensation not argument. Yes but they are to fix it right for the compensation you have paid, not throw parts at it and guessing if it will fix it then leaving. They were highly unprofessional in leaving your residence with the unit still not working after they supposedly fixed it. Call back and ask for a senior tech to be sent out to confirm the work performed did not fix the unit. You should not have to pay if the unit was diagnosed, parts were installed and the original problem still exists. Sound like you had a trainee or under-experienced tech sent out the first time. Be firm and you can still remain polite. |
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to pandora
I have a GeoSprings WH and the heat pump will work fine if????? Water coming in the house is fairly warm, WH is in a controlled space, mine is in the attic so if it gets to cold the heat pump will not run. Also how spread out your hot water usage is.
I can run in heat pump mode all summer on problem, winter time is a different matter. Family of 4. |
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pandora Premium Member join:2001-06-01 Outland |
to tschmidt
said by tschmidt:Be useful to try and troubleshoot the unit yourself.
First step turn off power and see if the new heating element has continuity. If you know the wattage easy to calculate what the resistance should be. But in any case just a few ohms.
If that checks out then I assume there is some form of SSR to control the element. That is probably the fault. Impossible to tell how smart the built in test is, in order to uniquely identify the SSR or element it needs to measure voltage and current, or perhaps voltage and water temperate change. Basically the self test needs some way to tell if power to the heating element is turned on and whether or not the element is actually heating the water.
If there is a non-heat pump mode, resistive element only. Be interesting to see what happens in that mode. In that mode you should be able to measure voltage at the heating element when the unit is heating the water. Sounds like there are dual elements so that gets a little tricky. In a standard heater the bottom element does most of the heating. Because electric heater have such slow recovery if water in the top of the tank gets too cold the upper heater is switched on and the lower one turned off.
/tom Hi Tom, It's microprocessor controlled. There wouldn't be any direct connection between the heating elements and power until after a self test process is completed. As it's heat pump coupled with conventional heater, it's not a direct or simple electrical connection. The settings are digital, not analog. There is an RJ45 jack, which I think is for serial (not Ethernet) diagnostics. I'd need to get hold of a technical manual, and any software GE provides service people to analyze the unit. My guess is this would be beyond my expertise and not inexpensive. |
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pandora |
to Corehhi
said by Corehhi:I have a GeoSprings WH and the heat pump will work fine if????? Water coming in the house is fairly warm, WH is in a controlled space, mine is in the attic so if it gets to cold the heat pump will not run. Also how spread out your hot water usage is.
I can run in heat pump mode all summer on problem, winter time is a different matter. Family of 4. We are spreading our load more, but will eventually get the unit repaired or replaced. I am amazed that a family of 5 is able to survive with just a heat pump for hot water. Our unit is in a utility room, which has a single HVAC vent off our heat pumps going to it. The room is usually dry and cool. |
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robbin Mod join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX |
to pandora
said by pandora:I'd need to get hold of a technical manual, and any software GE provides service people to analyze the unit. I think this is the tech manual. It sure looks like all diagnostics are built into the unit from what I can see. However I can't locate the RJ45 jack in the manual -- perhaps you can. » www.manualslib.com/manua ··· eed.html |
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pandora Premium Member join:2001-06-01 Outland |
pandora
Premium Member
2014-Nov-23 11:32 pm
Thanks, I'll take a look at it in the later in the day. I'm a bit tired at the moment. I appreciate the link. |
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to robbin
If that is the correct wiring diagram my previous post is valid. The brains control the compressor and dual heating elements via relays. There is no feedback to the controller so if the: relay, wire, or element fails it all looks the same to the controller. All the built in test is able to do is turn on the heating element and see if water temperature increases. Knowing that limitation the tech should have done some additional testing before relying on the fault code to condemn the heating element. pandora with the wiring diagram in hand should be easy to determine the root cause. Since the heating element has been replace the next logical candidate is the relay controlling the lower element or less likely the upper element control relay. To robbin The RJ45 test connector does not connect to external LV wiring so I assume that is why it is not shown on the wiring diagram you posted. Great bit of detective work tracking it down. /tom |
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tschmidt |
to pandora
said by pandora: I'll take a look at it in the later in the day. pandora did you ever figure out what the problem was? /tom |
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MajestikWorld Traveler Premium Member join:2001-05-11 Tulsa, OK 1 edit |
to pandora
said by pandora:Maybe I don't have the fight in me that you do. When someone seems to be professionally performing labor, I believe they are entitled to compensation not argument. Failure to pay could also cause other issues later. I'd prefer to avoid surprises on credit scores, or being blacklisted from future service calls. If you have a plan you don't need to worry about the fight. Whenever there's work to be performed at my place I deal with everything up front. I have a list of questions,always choose the bonded and insured,read everything before signing,(I even record the whole conversation on my iphone and take before and after pictures sometimes)and if i am not paying them by the hour to do the job they will fix it no matter how long it takes on their dime. And if there is a problem I will talk with the company owner or just turn everything over to attorney but things have never gotten to this point. I've owned my condo for over 20yrs. My first home. I was naive the first year or two trusting people. I was that nice trusting guy. Some will try to screw you. I still can't believe to this day what was done to me on a window installation back then and it was too late to do anything about it. I'm a quick learner. I stay on top of everything now and have some knowledge of what's going to be done. The businesses with the fish emblem I don't trust either. Not worried about credit scores at all. Won't even get to that. And since I'm in a condo community with over 250 homes within the gates they can be blacklisted here as well. I try to keep things simple (KISS)when it comes to furnaces,AC,and water heaters. I consider the maintenance side of things when I purchase expensive necessary items such as these. What's that line Scotty said in the Star Trek movie? "The more they overthink the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain" All that said really no problems. And like others said you can do it yourself. I'm having a garage ceiling drywall repair being done tomorrow morning by a company for $300. My dad taught me everything about drywall when working with him during summers. But to buy/rent everything to do it myself would cost close to the same amount and a lot of time. They can start in the morning and have it done and painted by the end of the day. I want to go sailing Tuesday. The $300 from my household emergency fund. |
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to pandora
I installed a 60 gallon American Brand hybrid water heater in the unfinished partial basement in our home in Arizona. We lived in the mountains at a 5k elevation. The unit was set to run as heat pump only. Even though we had temperatures below freezing quite often at night, the unit alway provided our family of 3 with 120 degree F hot water. The unheated unfinished area of the house had a 6 ft high dirt bank that ran the entire width of the house. This allowed the area where the water heater was installed to stay above 40 degrees when the unit was set to run from 9PM to 9 AM to take advantage of off peak metering.When researching hybrid water heaters they had an average coefficient of performance of 2.3 so if you are relying on your heat pump heating system to supply the necessary BTU's to supply your water heater you might be breaking even. My American hybrid unit required ambient temperatures greater than 40 degrees F to operate as a straight heat pump. Also, when I was researching hybrid water heaters, all of the manufacturers had a 10 year parts warranty on their hybrid units. |
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Corehhi
Member
2014-Dec-14 10:18 pm
The Labor is a killer if you can't do your own work. Where I am it's $100 for a plumber to show up at your house. Even with free parts you can hit $400 pretty easy. An install on a water heater costs about $450 around here, don't know if I'm high low or what??? Plumbers seem to charge lot to me. |
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pandora Premium Member join:2001-06-01 Outland
1 recommendation |
to dbamber
Overall our hot water heater has been performing well in heat pump only, but our repair company diagnosed a failed control panel, and GE shipped a replacement at no cost. It is to be installed shortly, been a while in heat pump only, but I'll be switching back to hybrid mode. |
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